Heating Help

CPVC vs pex

@ December 17, 2011 11:01 AM in CPVC vs pex

Have any of you used the CPVC water piping for domestic? Turns out I have a 6.2ph on my well, which precludes the use of my preferred choice of copper for the re-pipe of the house. The house is an old place with galvie...whats left of it. I just ran a new underground water supply from the well as well as conduit for underground service. I'll be replacing the old bathrooms once I get the permitting in place (my delay at this point, not theirs).

I had pressure drop problems with pex in the old house and don't like the idea of oversizing the tubing to overcome the bushing effect of the pex fittings, especially on the hot side. I've never used the CPVC for water before, but it looks like this may be the best option at this point. Any experience with the CPVC? I will look into water treatment as well. With the exception of the ph, the water is excellent.

It being a 2532

@ December 5, 2011 10:53 AM in Rinnai Tankless Water Heater

it is probably 5 yrs old. It would be worth flushing the unit with 4-5 gallons of white vinegar. Using the service valves, pmp from cold thru to the hot side. Do not pump from hot to cold! Your description of the issue is a classic for an undersized gas line. The rumble etc. The unit is trying to fire and does so, but with a winter load, on your house and the whole system, the gas pressure is just a tad low. Teh unit knows what it wants to do but air fuel mixture is compromised and it will sing. If you are lucky it will sing a tune you like, but I've not found that yet. In the summer with reduced demand on the gas supply system the unit can do its thing.

BTW, when you flush it, make sure to clean the immersion sensors at the upper rt and at the hot water outlet. Two small while wires connect them. There is a very small O-ring on the sensor. Don't lose it;)

You are in the business

@ November 22, 2011 10:38 PM in geothermal worth the investment?

Until you go to all the classes you can and have a very clear understanding of the features/benefits/costs you cannot make a reasoned assessment as to whether you should get into it or not. If, after all the training, you decide not to get into it, you will be better able to serve your customers needs based upon a solid background.

I did a bunch of them for the "very wealthy" back in the late 70's. I wouldn't put one in my house. I'd get really good at mini-split heat pumps, because they are getting better and better at a fraction of the cost/hassle...and with your savings you can put in a modcon with them, if you insist;)

Do it once,

@ November 19, 2011 11:42 AM in Chimney Liner-Insulated or Not

do it right. Definitely insulate the liner. This is especially so on an exterior chimney. If it is a straight shot I'd suggest looking at MG Dura-vents Duraliner. I represented Dura-liner a few decades ago when this product was introduced. I am working with it today on my new home where I found a full length liner in the old chimney. I have to add to it. I had forgotten what a neat system that was. IF you can get an approval from the manuf and AHJ to go down to 4" you can line with pellet vent. It is L-vent, double wall and an excellent liner system...again, with approval. At 38" I'll bet the 4" would whistle right along. Check Appendix E in NFPA 31. I cannot find my copy right now.

I am not sure I follow the piping

@ November 19, 2011 10:57 AM in Rinnai cycles hot cold

can you post a pic so I can get my head wrapped around that please? When you said you replaced the boiler controller, is that the pcb in the Rinnai? If so, did you re-set the high and low gas pressures? Any time a gas valve or pcb is replaced the operation of those to components must be "co-ordinated". With either one or the other, the unit may be throwing limit codes. have you dumped the error codes since the new hx? Also, did you clean the immersion sensors at the top rt and at the hot water outlet of the unit. If they were crapped up, and not cleaned that can affect limit operation. Be careful when removing the the sensor. There is a small O-ring in the well/on the sensor. Sometimes it stays in the well, sometime comes out with the sensor and sometimes you drop it and well, just be careful. Did you send me a pm?

Rinnai supported your warranty

@ November 17, 2011 2:30 PM in Rinnai cycles hot cold

Within the term of that warranty. You were sent to a list of trained service providers. That makes sense as it is a gas appliance and the company needs trained eyes and ears on site. They are the interpreters for the manuf. The hx was provided, you managed to install it yourself. I guess what I would suggest is that you go to one of Rinnai's training classes and you too can become a service provider. What did your water analysis show? What was the cause of the failure? What did you see when you cut the old hx in half?

That Unit

@ November 17, 2011 10:56 AM in Rinnai cycles hot cold

Has a minimum flow requirement of .6gpm. Using this as a "boiler", depending upon what temp you are running your system at you will frequently see a situation where the amount of flow at the faucet requires so little hot water to arrive at your use temp that you fall below the minimum to continue operation. You can read the flow thru the unit to see if this is the case. What is your output temp setting? I've seen a lot of these systems thru the years set at 180 output and then you try to make 100 for hand washing. It simply does not work. What model controller do you have on it ( the small print, lower left)? The other side of this is the flow. Let's say you are getting a 20f temp drop across your system. With the circ on, read the flow and run the numbers on GPM X Delta T X 500= BTU. The minimum fire on that unit is 15kbtu. You can and I think have, killed that unit due to short cycling. I'm betting that this perfectly describes your situation. It is exactly the reason Rinnai does not allow their water heaters in a closed loop heating application.

You have re-built the unit. It is now a very good water heater. I understand your issue with "lack of funds", but if you continue to operate in the same way, or try to modify the system to make it work, you will soon be back in the same situation. Try to separate the system. Conserve the Rinnai as a water heater and it will do a good job for you. If you don't do this, you are going to have to replace your water heater and get a boiler too.

Give

@ November 17, 2011 10:25 AM in Buderus Heat Exchanger

Try FW Webb. Try the Auburn, MA branch and ask for Dave T. Tell him Jack sent you;) good luck!

qtr sawn

@ November 15, 2011 11:17 AM in Hardwood Floor Installation

I don't get to do my woodworking side here very often. to qualify my skill level, I specialize in the production of chips, sawdust and kindlin, but I continue to work at it. The qtr sawn is more stable and will resist cupping much better. The structure of the flat sawn just doesn't resist the natural wood tendency to cup/curl. Qtr sawn does. I think the Raupanel an excellent system and am contemplating it for my home re-model. I used Wirsbo's Quik-Trac on the last house with good results, but today, I'd go Rau. Back to the wood, I would only run the strips perpendicular to the plates. I'm sure you can do it parallel, but it will not be as strong and you would, I think, end up with greater temp difference in the actual floor material, due to the proximity of the tubing to each individual flooring strip going parallel. Play to your materials strengths and you will not be disappointed...or you will be less likely to be disappointed. Qtr sawn cost a boat load more, but the looks are tremendous.

I'm helping a friend mill up a lot of qtr sawn Elm for his floors. He has a band saw mill and it is spectacular in appearance. As to the Oaks, I'd say White Oak is the prettier wood, especially in qtr sawn. Traditionally, it is the preferred flooring material in the Oaks.

Lew, what do you want to do here?

@ November 10, 2011 11:40 PM in Wall mounted space heaters

You have an old system. Is it functional? is it worth saving? Is the distribution system the problem or the boiler/piping/controls the problem? We will all offer advise, but i think we'd all rather have a better description of what you are trying to achieve. What have the contractors who have looked at it said?

Do you want to be able to zone room by room and can your current system be adapted to this strategy. When you look at the original question, imho, the Rinnai's are the answer, BUT, you need to flesh out the building usage a bit better.

In my 2800 sq ft home I had a nice buderus cast iron boiler with some radiant. Great system, but I heated the family room and kitchen (where we spent our time) with a Rinnai. My boiler became my back-up heat. Nice back-up, btw, but I heated the area we spent our time in with the Rinnai. The boiler stayed at 60. I don't have any friends, so nobody ever came over so I never had to turn up the central heat. Very efficient, but it does tend to make you hang out at internet forums a lot ;)

Look at the lay-out

@ November 10, 2011 11:26 PM in Tankless water heater

of the place. The number one mistake in tankless installs is inadequate gas line sizing. Walk around the house and look at the lay-out of the place. The current location of the water heater may not be the best location for the tankless. Keep in mind that the tankless will not make hot water until the tap is opened. I would suggest hat you contact your supplier and find out what type and when they are having training on their brand of tankless. At least, contact your LOCAL rep for whichever brand you choose and speak with them about your application and that this is your first installation. Their response will determine if you want to install that brand. If it is your first, it is all about the support. Their job is to keep you all out of trouble. Your job is to listen and let them do theirs.

As to the in-line filter, it is certainly a good idea to consider. I spent my time with Rinnai and they have a filter on the inlet to protect the flow turbine. I'm assuming other manuf do too. Prior to selling my house I had my tankless for 10 yrs and never had to clean the filter. It was a good municipal water system.Every system has a personality. My experience says that not every system needs a filter, but it is worth, absolutely, letting the customer know that if they do have a dirty water system it is an option and may be necessary. Let the customer know and they can decide yes/no, but at last you are covered. My recommendation is that as you are backing off the job when convinced that the gas, water, venting are good that, as you pick up, you run the bejeepers out of the hot water. The last thing you do prior to pulling off the job, having run the hot water hard, is you shut off the water and clean the inlet filter. That way you know that you have purged the cold water system of any debris that moves to the unit after the system has been shut down, modified and restarted. If you get the call in a couple weeks where the customer says, "Wow. it was great when you first installed it, but it seems I have less and less hot water", you may then need the filter. Can't tell you how many times I've had that conversation.

good luck with your entry into tankless. They are here to stay. Get good at it. there is money to be made there!

Rinnai

@ November 10, 2011 8:23 PM in Wall mounted space heaters

Energysavers are approved for bedrooms. Direct vent sealed combustion. They are not cheap by any means, but you get what you pay for. What is the lay-out of this place.

Your best bet

@ November 10, 2011 2:57 PM in Wall mounted space heaters

would be the Rinnai Energysaver. Do not over size for small spaces. In a small space you must look at the low fire capability of the equipment. For instance, the ES-08 will modulate on the blower and gas valve from 3000-8000 btu. The ES-11 will go from 5,500-11,000 btu. There are larger units available but for small spaces, these are the way to go.

While 3/4" may be

@ November 7, 2011 10:42 AM in Gas Pipe Question

What you connect to the appliance be certain that it can handle the length of the gas line. I don't have a book in front of me, but I believe that 20' of 3/4" black pipe can handle 180k btu. Count fittings, etc and you can be in a jam. There is no substitute for a digital manometer here...but...if you know the units design output at a specific temp rise and your incoming wter temp, you should be able to read the water flow and see if it is within a couple tenths of gallon of the "design numbers". Once you are certain that the numbers are within spec you can begin operating other appliance and see if your system is supplying appropriately. The number one mistake in the installation of tankless water heater is inadequate gas lines

Clearances will be greater

@ November 7, 2011 8:44 AM in Double wall smoke pipe?

B-vent is 1" as noted. Clearances on class A all fuel is 2", but you cannot use it as a vent connector and its thickness is so great that you would loose there anyway. You could use Selkirk's DS or Dura-vents DVL. Check those model numbers. It has been a while since I used them. They are 6" id and are outstanding for oil vent connectors. Type L, btw. Both are close to 7"od, but do have T's, 45 &90's. Perhaps, with authorization in writing from the manuf of the appliance and AHJ you could possibly use 4" pellet vent. It is L vent and again is an excellent liner for oil or vent connector, if you can use it. Check appendix E in NFPA 31 for sizes. These sizes in E are good. Problem is they are still an appendix and therefore not a part of the code. Remember, the only way you can do this is with approvals up and down. Oh, the pellet vent clearance is 3" I believe. DS &DVL is 6" as it is typically used on wood stoves. I don't know if there is a reduced clearance when used with oil. With no room, I think you are in a jam. I am pretty sure of these numbers, but again, it has been a while so please confirm the clearances.

Whenever i get a call to look at a system that is shoe-horned into a space where no one can get at it to service it, I cannot help but refer to my old adage. "Just because it fits doesn't mean that is where it goes".

I would suggest

@ November 1, 2011 11:58 AM in Combining Radiant Floor with Hydro Air

ThaT you do the radiant but eliminate the ductwork. Better, imho, to put in an inverter mini-split heat pump for cooling and shoulder season heating. That is an excellent combo that will deliver great comfort.

The difference in the I & II is

@ October 25, 2011 1:16 PM in Tjernlund blower wheel disintegrated?

The I was the original Sideshot and has a squirrel cage blower wheel. Over time, if the blower wheel isn't serviced ( cleaned). Keep in mind that everything that goes thru that burner goes thru the PV. It is a pretty aggressive atmosphere. The 2 was subsequently designed with a backward inclined mat'l handling wheel. It is designed to shed deposits and does pretty well at it. The 2 is much easier to service. For the last several years all Tjernlunds's products have the same UC1 control board with pre and pst settings and self diagnostics. I think the 2 is a significantly better product than the 1. The 2 has a max input of 168k. I think the 2 goes to 225kbtu.

You are correct on the recent models and low temps.

@ October 25, 2011 12:34 PM in Unfinished barn - it's cold, please help!

However, now All Energysavers now have the programmable t-stat including the 38's. All current production has a low temp setting capability of 38f, but it must be selected in the "set-back" program mode to be accessed. It is simple to program. The new units also have the relight feature that in the event of power outage or pressure sensor outage (wind) the unit will re-start. If it fails to re-light it will try every hour. Your post gave me the opportunity to ask Rinnai to update the info on the web-site.

That is what I like about this site. It is hard to get away with anything;)

Thanks, Chris, but

@ October 25, 2011 12:25 PM in Unfinished barn - it's cold, please help!

Lchmb is correct here. I was referencing the older models. Sooo...

A number of ways to do it!

@ October 22, 2011 11:43 PM in mini spliti

You could us a single evap and use Tjernlund Aireshares to move the air or you could use a bit better lay-out with a two ton multi and use the concealed ducted units and pipe a supply to each room.

Well,

@ October 22, 2011 11:33 PM in Unfinished barn - it's cold, please help!

Monitor is out of business, sorry, production since Hitachi, the manuf decided the numbers for oil didn't support the effort and with old tooling it was not worth doing. Chris, one of the local ME distributors bought the remaining inventory of the gas products. They are all orphans at this point.

The Rinnai will go down to 55F in normal use mode. Using it's " frost timer" feature will allow temps down to 42F. I've run Rinnai's in my own wood shop successfully. Then again, while I like woodworking, I really don't like sawdust and used primary dust collection. As well, I had an ambient air filter box. With that I would regularly check the filter and at the end of every season I'd pull the cover and use compressed air and brushes to clean the blower wheel and make sure to clean off any debris on the board. I ran one heater this way from 93 until '10. Maintenance is key in that kind of install.

Having lived in a yurt

@ October 18, 2011 11:09 AM in wall hung non condensing boiler

For a couple years back in the day ( mine was built with interlaced 1x3's, insulation and tar paper siding) I feel your pain. I heated with wood, had a propane light and stove, carried water and the ultimate unheated outhouse.

A different route for your yurt, and we've done a bunch of them, is with a Rinnai Energysaver. Easy peasy. Probably the ES38 model.