Heating Help

Jah, all I can do...

@ May 20, 2010 11:43 PM in Entran II

is separate it w/ a HX.  The boiler was pretty sludged but the loops still flow & heat.  Client bought the house and got a $10k allowance for it, so we'll do the best we can.  Crazy that you had to "shred the docs".
Thanks for the Onix tip Mark.   I appreciate the help.
Cheers,
Bo

Entran II

@ May 19, 2010 8:10 PM in Entran II

Anyone have access to or know the pressure drop/ft for 1/2" Entran II tubing?
Any help would be huge, Thanks!!

Entran II

@ May 19, 2010 8:10 PM in Entran II

Anyone have access to or know the pressure drop/ft for 1/2" Entran II tubing?
Any help would be huge, Thanks!!

John Siegenthaler in Denver, CO 2/19/10

@ January 27, 2010 9:23 PM in John Siegenthaler in Denver, CO 2/19/10

Hey Wallies,
I checked w/ Dan to make sure this was OK. 
John Siegenthaler will be giving a workshop for COSEIA, Colorado Solar Energy Industries Associaton at our annual meeting and conference this February 19, from 8:30 - 5:30.   The workshop is titled "State of the art hydronic design for the solar thermal professional"
I encourage everyone to get involved either in state or otherwise.
Mark Eatherton and Hot Rod Rohr will be attending and also sitting on a panel discussion on solar thermal.   This will be a great event.
Please visit [url=http://www.coseia.org]www.coseia.org to register for the workshop.
Thanks to everyone for such great posts and community.
PS, Happy Birthday Dan!

Something will be done

@ January 26, 2010 11:07 PM in Solar Code: Minimum standards guideline.

Justin,
First I must apologize to you, ME, HR, and all of the wallies that my involvement here is sporadic.   That being said, I do listen in and feel your pain, believe me.
I was recently elected to the BOD of the very organization you speak of, and can not tell you how helpful your feedback is.   I will be contacting you directly, but for now please let it be know you have been heard.  
I encourage all wallies to get involved in solar thermal, and also their local industry's associatons (if any).   The interest in thermal has really grown over the past few years, and will continue to grow if we build credibility.   Addressing the issues out there with regard to proper practices, etc is the place to start.  
Again, thank you again for posting, this is great feedback.
Radman

Not much else out there huh?

@ November 11, 2009 7:46 PM in Subfloor panels

Yes, I agree.  From what I can see there isn't much in the way of choices for panels with any R value.   Roth is it.  It's just that Roth is such a pain when it comes to tile and carpet.  By the time you add multi-ply, then cement board under the tile it really gets tall.    Schluter has a nice trowel on substrate for tile that omits the board, so I could use 3/8" Multi-Ply and tapcon it down.  I end up with a total build up of 1.5" to finished floor.   That's alot.   The real challenge is the carpet.  I wish there was a thermal mass interlocking-floating panel like Dri-Core that you could float over the Roth and set your carpet on.  
Well, thanks all.
BTW, Nice writeup in "Radiant Living" NRT_Rob, well done.  
Bo

That is true on the 200 as well

@ November 9, 2009 11:12 AM in Radiant Boiler Sizing Choice

It is a major disappointment, but the new 200 only modulates to 8Kw unlike the old one that mods to 6.   Stick with the TT 60, you will be better off.  Set the parameters for continuous circ on ODR, and use modulating zone valves or TRVs.  I am a Viessmann dealer, but for small applications the new 100 & 200 don't quite cut it.  The offer the 4-11 in Europe, which would be sweet here in the US for more than 50% of the types of homes we do.  I don't know why they don't offer it,  and the response I get is that the market is too small for that boiler.   I can't think of a single house that I have heated with a load calc over 50K in the past 5 years.   That includes a couple of 6000 sf monsters.
We'll get there...

Results with Seido 5-16 collectors

@ November 9, 2009 10:51 AM in making 170*f solar hot water

Hi Michael,
Attached is a graph of the results with three Seido 5-16 tubes and 155g storage.  The additional collector and storage is needed to get the performance in sync with the Viessmann Vitosol 300 collectors I ran in the first design.
Just an FYI.
It is interesting to run "what if" scenarios with different collectors & storage at the same installation parameters within T-sol.  You can also change parameters to see what those changes do to affect the performance of the system.

Scary...

@ November 8, 2009 3:10 PM in Hotter than HELL!!

I see something like that and all I can do is think of my kids.  
Glad it was caught before it "caught"
That indeed was a low water situation?

Water conditions

@ November 8, 2009 1:59 PM in Electric boilers and indercts

A good pro of  this situation is that if the incoming water conditions are hard, the indirect can be potentially less susceptible to scaling than an electric element.
Power for power, it seems a wash.   Is it better to use a SST indirect, and have greater recovery or go with an electric automatic storage water heater, replace the occaisonal element, and endure slow recovery? 

Subfloor panels

@ November 8, 2009 1:52 PM in Subfloor panels

Hey all,
I am looking for feedback on various types of subfloor radiant panels systems.
I have installed more than 20,000 sqFt of Roth, and a few thousand of warmboard.  I want someones feedback on the others, specific to this type of appication:
Existing basement slab, demolition not possible or in the budget.
Low floor height build-up allowed, 3/4" or less.  
Finished floor cover to be mixed: HWF(main living area), carpet (bedrooms), tile (baths).
Basically, this is for my house and Roth isn't going to cut it even though I love the stuff.   I need to pick up some R-value, and allow for carpet in the bedrooms because that's what Nancy wants.   Tile in the bath is desireable, and tile over Roth is a PITA.  The hardwoods will most likely be engineered, so the bath & bedrooms are the issue.
I am hoping to keep the build up low, spec 3/8" PEx Al PEx and not have to cut doors, affect the stair stringers, etc.   
What have been your experiences with the others?

T-Sol

@ November 8, 2009 1:36 PM in making 170*f solar hot water

Hi Michael,
It sounds like the load is year round.  The closest I could come to with weather bin data is Syracuse.  That is fairly close, but the weather 1 hour away could vary greatly so close to the lake.   For estimation purposes, it is what we have.   I simulated a simple 2 panel E-tube system at 60deg inclination, 192degSW with 0deg adjustment for declination.  Storage capacity of 500L (132g) and 6sqM of E-tube absorber. (66sqFt)   Based on that and a 100g draw at 170degF you get a solar fraction of about 42%.   This is pretty low, but when you consider the efficiency of the system, it is fairly high.   The efficiency in T-Sol distills the total solar energy (insolation) down to the actual energy USED.   52% is pretty high, and anything above 50% is a good place to start. 
Adding a 3rd collector only bumps the fraction up about 5% but lowers the efficiency 10%.    With solar, a good mantra to repeat is "less is more"  Or, "If it were easy, they would have called it PV"   Attached is a graph FYI.   The nice thing about this load profile is that it requires daytime draws, continuous operation, and low volume.   You can always add more collector and storage, and stage the tanks.   In this case, I would recommend a Caleffi iSolar 3 or iSolar Plus controller and a 3 way 120v diverting valve like a Caleffi Z616637.  This allows you to stage the tanks depending on insolation at the array.   Initially, the investment for two 3sqM E-tube collectors and a 130g tank is steep, and will still require a backup to allow for the 170deg supply to the system.   If you look at evacuated tube efficiency at those inlet temps, you are fairly high near 40% while a flat plate would be in the 20% range assuming low ambient temps in the winter at 32deg.     I am not suggesting that E-tubes are better in any way, just that around the temps that you are trying to reach they fit the application better.    You want to design with two efficiencies in mind: Collector efficiency and System efficiency.   I support designing from the system standpoint before being too critical of collector  efficiency.   The collector efficiency is a moving target, whereas system efficiency in many applications is more linear.    Harvest the energy, and use as much as possible without losing a ton to piping, heat exchange, under use, etc...  

More Beta please

@ November 4, 2009 10:23 PM in making 170*f solar hot water

Hi Michael,
Could you give me some more data?
How frequently does the farmer shut down processing and for how long?
Where is the farm located (city, state)
What is the ground water temp in the dead of winter?
Where are the possible collector locations?  (ground, roof, facade, etc)
I am happy to crunch some #s in T-Sol for you, but need more info.
Bo

Really? That simple?

@ November 4, 2009 10:12 PM in Hazen-Williams equation

Why didn't I think of that?
So, basically use the pressure drop converted to ft of head and cross it on the pump curve.   I can do that.   Now if I could just get other contractors to put petes plugs in before & after their pumps.... Ah so much to fix so little time
Now, here's the biggie... I am in the field, old multi story apartment building, no pump data or curve, and two 1/4" ports on the pump flanges...

Hazen-Williams equation

@ November 4, 2009 9:47 PM in Hazen-Williams equation

Hi Wallies,
How do I apply the Hazen Williams equation to determine GPM through a system if I can read the pressure drop in PSI across the pump?
Anyone have experience with this to determine actual GPM?
Any help would be hot.
Thx!

Thanks Royboy, and yeah no PEx

@ November 3, 2009 10:00 PM in Solar Code: Minimum standards guideline.

Thanks for that doc, it will help us along with delivering the basics to our AHJ.
Seems like Y'all are pulling it together nicely out there.   Yeah, we all really need to keep informing everyone about the appropriate applications for PEx and why it doesn't belong in a solar thermal system.    I too have seen the disasters, and it is not pretty.  
Hot Rod, you are scaring me.  I hope those failures are not on Caleffi's product?
I have been enjoying using them for my smaller DHW systems.   What types of failures?   Tubing or fitting?   I suppose the double flare on some could be over-stressed during high temperature fluctuations.
Keep us posted on that 4 sure.
I am a little concerned over OG300 for AHJ adoption or for rebate/incentive qualification.  That has come up here and could really throw a wrench in some contractors business as far as material selection goes. (tanks, pump stations, etc) 
Of course I do not worry because I use Viessmann and they are approved Jah!
(said with bad German accent, think Heatmeister)

Thank you for the props Mark, I appreciate it.   I was in the county, so I didn't see Sam, but know him well.   He is a good man, wise and fair and tough.   Good inspector.   A connection has been made in their office today, and a great colleague has agreed to help us get our whole leg in that door.  I am hopeful that this will continue.

I love to hear you gush Jeffery

@ November 3, 2009 9:48 PM in Vito Love

It is nice to have such options isn't it?
I can honestly say that since becoming a Viessmann dealer my life has improved.
Just the simple on-board timing program is enough to make you smile.  Factor in all of the other things you CAN do and there really is no better choice.
I'm going to go put on my jacket now.
Bo

It looks like a Thatcher Co.

@ November 2, 2009 6:34 PM in Help identify brand and model radiator

Hi Al,
It looks like a Thatcher Co, which would have distinct castings over the end-plugs that say "Gothic" on the bottom plugs.  They will have a T on the top plugs and sa Thatcher.  The US radiator Corp "Capitol" radiator will also match, as will the Weil McLain "Cameo", the Burnham "Fero", and the Smith "144" which has much more pronounced flares in the legs than yours.  When they all start to look the same, the legs sometimes help identify.    Dan's book, "EDR, Every Darn Radiator" is a great one to research as well.

Here's an interesting point...

@ November 2, 2009 6:12 PM in Solar Code: Minimum standards guideline.

Thanks to ME and all the wallies on this.  As another of this group, I have to say that the reason for the minumum guidelines are so we can keep the administrative authorities from making their own call.   Unfourtunately the permitting processes in some parts of our state are out of hand, while others are non-existent.   If a series of minimum guidelines are established, they can foucs on that and not worry about the things they cannot control or understand.  

 When educating a group of inspectors recently about thermal systems, the resounding comment fromt the inpsector group was "We don't care if it works, looks or doesn't look well crafted, or is designed properly.  We just want to determine it is safe to sign off on"   Tomorrow I meet with local area contractors and that AHJ, we'll see what comes up and I'll bounce it back here.For minumum guidelines, I think the basics are:

Piping type & material
Flashing penetrations 
Lagging standards 
MSDS requirements
Emergency instructions
Clearance for service, ie: no roofs with edge to edge collectors where you cannot access piping & connections without standing on the collectors like the PV guys do.
Insulation minimums & types
Sensor wire coatings for UV protection
Insulation coatings for UV & animal protection
Anti-scald valves on DHW supply out, and temperature protection to maximum temperature input rated appliances
Snow-unloading.
Basically what Mark already said, short of the design criteria which is a pandora's box. 

If anyone needs motivation, here is a comment I recieved today from a "solar industry individual"  It got my shorts in a bunch that's for sure...

"Solar thermal systems involve specific subsets of roofing, plumbing, mechanical and electrical knowledge that most roofers, plumbers, HVAC guys and electricians do not know. This is why I would support that people have a solar specific certification, either NABCEP or COSEIA."

See that guys, you don't know any of this stuff anyway;-)
Bo, aka Radman
"If it were easy, they would have called it PV"

Switch to TRVs...

@ September 27, 2009 8:31 PM in Vitodens 200 Lamda Pro

Hi ERF,
You will first want to perform a load calculation to size the system properly.  If each zone is capable of delivering heat at water temperatures below 162deg F then you will like your Vitodens.  The EDR for the recessed radiators will need to be calc'd along with the freestanding rads.  You will find the system will perform best under continuous circulation on the system side.  Retrofitting thermostatic radiator valves on those zones will increase comfort and even out any temperature swings.  If the piping on the radiators is a series loop, then you might consider piping them parallel so you can zone each rad.  If not, a remote TRV will work.   I have put a lot of Vitodens in, and it is our primary boiler.  I have one in my house connected to crappy old baseboard (I am due to change it out) but since installing the TRVs on each zone the house has never felt better.   Our gas consumption is down about 35%, and last winter was cold for us here in CO.  Typically baseboard systems are designed around about a 170 deg F avg water temp, but even when it is more than -10, we are heating the house comfortably with 159 deg F water. Again, careful sizing and system evaluation is key no matter what you install.

Mineral Oil

@ September 27, 2009 10:48 AM in Buderus H-X cleaning

Here is the procedure Buderus recommends.  We have used this process this season with good results.   It is a little lengthy, IMHO

1. Shut down power to boiler, shut off gas supply, remove cover.
2. Remove burner/fan assy.  Disconnect gas valve plug, fan power plug, an tachyometer plug.  Unscrew gas flex connector from gas valve. This should be hand tight.
3.  Unclip burner hood & remove assy, burner diffuser, and ceramic burner.  Handle with care & set aside.  Inspect gasket for damage.
4.  Remove & empty/wash out condensate trap.
5  Remove lower HX condensate plate.  (4 spring clips)  Clean off plate & re-install. Check gasket for damage.  Re-install condensate trap.  *** Don't forget this step***
6.  Loosen any buildup on upper HX with a nylon brush or old credit card.  Do not use a metal brush.
7.  Wash out HX with water.   Spray down HX with mineral oil, and be sure to soak it thoroughly.  You should have mineral oil in the trap when you are done.
8.  Re-install burner plate, diffuser, hood, & fan assy.  Re-connect control plugs and gas flex.  Do not tighten gas with a wrench, hand tighten firmly.
9.  Restore power & gas, press & hold chimney sweep button until decimal appears in display.
10. Fire boiler for 10-15 minutes.  It will smoke alot outside. 
11.  Repeat steps 1-3, and wash out HX.  Remove any stubborn buildup with a card or nylon brush. 
12.  Check Ionization rod, and clean off with a rag.  If heavy buildup is present, use brass wool or a small brass wire brush.  DO NOT USE SANDPAPER OR A FILE! 
13.  Repeat steps 8-10, and check combustion.  CO should be under 440ppm on high fire.
14.  Check differential gas pressure, according to service procedure.  This is done in low fire.  The reading should be -.02" WC.
15.  Press chimney sweep button to exit service mode, check gas line for leaks, and replace cover. 
Do not use TSP on this boiler, you will damage the HX.
I have used this procedure, with fair results.  Those HXrs are hard to clean that's for sure.   Hope this helps!
Peace,
Radman

Best tool ever....

@ March 21, 2009 9:09 PM in Single Best Tool Purchase

A dust pan and a broom. So few have them, so many need them. It takes only a minute to clean up after yourself, the impression on the client lasts a lifetime. A moment of silence please...