Heating Help

I suspect inadequate radiation

@ February 4, 2012 10:52 PM in Supply & Return Both Very Hot, Minimal Heat from Baseboard

also. The best first step is a load calc, without knowing the actual load you cannot know if you have enough board to heat the space. A converted patio??? Hmmmm.

Here is a link to a hand, load calc sheet. Thanks to the pikes Peak Building Dept.


www.pprbd.org/plancheck/Heat%20Loss%20Table.pdf

a few dual coil options

@ February 4, 2012 9:42 AM in Indirect water heaters

here is how I have connected the dual coils to maximize the performance. It could also be done with a 3 way zone valve. The upper coil is heated first for quick recovery, then switch to the bottom coil. Assuming there is not a recirc pump connected to the system.

I like the large diameter smooth coils in hard water conditions.

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How much boiler?

@ February 3, 2012 8:34 AM in Indirect water heaters

Do you have to drive it? If you want fast recovery you need horsepower to drive it. A dual coil tank with both coils connected gives you a lot of hx surface. Look for a brand with large diameter coils. Caleffi comes to mind. One concern with reverse indirects is plugging of the copper cool mainly with hard water and high boiler side temperatures. They can plug at the header where all the tubes connect.

Simulation

@ January 30, 2012 11:14 AM in New solar install with flaws!

Start with a simulation program, RET Screen, F-Chart, T-sol, etc. this will help determine the potential of that array at your location under the conditions you have. It would help you determine the amount of storage that makes sense.

Pex is a gamble in any solar system. The potential to send a slug of 400f or higher fluid from an evac tube array is risky at best.

Not reason to lock out the array if the temperature exceeds the pex temperature. if a load is present you should continue to harvest.

All systems have the potential to stagnate. Suppose the power goes out mid summer day. When it comes back up that fluid will hit the pex.

I'm curious why two expansion tanks connected in different location? By connecting in different places you have established multiple points of no pressure change or reference for the pumps.

In solar piping it is common to see the expansion tank connected to the line going up to the collector to put it in the coolest fluid.

Some solar expansion tank manufacturers suggest a cool down tank connected to the expansion tank, especially on evac tube systems. This is to prevent the tank bladder from seeing excessive temperatures.

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How much DHW

@ January 29, 2012 11:07 PM in New solar indirect questions

do you generally use per day?

I plugged in 60 gallons at 140F and came up with a solar fraction of 54% for Seattle, Boeing Field weather data. Nov- April, probably not much excess to contribute to a heating load with 120 square feet of collector.

New solar controls do have over hast protection functions. Collector cooling allows the pump to run and over charge the tank if the collector 230F. Store cooling allows the pump to come on in the evening and cool the tank back down to setpoint or below.

So for example a low DHW use day, the tank runs up to 160F or so, the pump comes back on after the sun is down and cools the tank. Since the collector is basically a heat exchanger heat energy can also be dissipated.

It really depends on how much DHW your family uses. If you have family that uses 80 gallons or more per day, I doubt you will ever see the need to dump or enable over-heat protection.

Over-heat features are handy for times when you may be away from home with little or any DHW loads.

If you feel you need a dump, first consider an extra storage capacity. If a dump zone is the final answer use a 3 way zone valve at the solar pump station. It switches flow thru a fin tube or dump radiator.

Some installers will trigger a heating zone as a dump load, a radiant garage slab or basement slab could provide enough dump for the small amount you may need to "shed".

Is a drainback system an option? if the tank is below the level of the collectors a drainback could solve an over heat concerns.

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reverser

@ January 26, 2012 3:52 PM in 4 Way Reversing Valve Trick

I'm looking at a few options to build these assemblies. Here is one with a Belimo spring return 120V operator. This is on a tekmar brass style 4 way.

tekmar is working on another option for me with the actuator they currently have that bolts right onto the 4 way. It is a 24V operator and needs to power open and close.

We show a reverser in several of the solar and now the Biomass #10 Idronics issues.

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looks a lot like

@ January 16, 2012 3:15 PM in Valve Actuators

an earlier Wirsbo model, also. The challange if finding a replacement with the correct pin stroke. Then threads are all common, but the wrong pin dimension can hold the valve open, or not allow it to stroke enough to fully open.

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how much boiler?

@ January 13, 2012 6:38 PM in dual coil tanks

and what type of DHW load?

True that upper coil will only warm and store heated water at the top 1/2 of the tank. assuming it does not have a DHW recirc pump :) Typically a solar tank would be 65, 80, or 119 gallons, so you should have a fairly good amount of storage. But you need to supply what the house hold needs or expects.

On my system I have a Lochinvar Knight 80,000 feeding the upper coil on priority. it is all piped with 1" and has a dedicated Grundfos 15-58 on speed 3. It has a tank, with a 1" stainless upper coil so it transfers the BTUs well. I can run the hot water non stop with a single faucet flow and never run out of hot water, even without any solar pre-heat.

I'm on a well so my incoming water never drops below 50- 55F. Incoming water down in the 30's will of course change the load.

For large DHW expectations a dual tank system is nicer. The first tank is just solar pre-heat, the second is sized for the load even without solar input.

Here is the tank I have, without the two large windows :)

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flow test

@ January 11, 2012 9:43 AM in PRV w/fastfill

My shop is quite a distance form the well house and this is flowing thru 75' of garden hose also.

With around 26 psi, flowing, I get just at 4.5 gallons in the bucket in one minute. So I suspect the 5 gpm at 30 psi is accurate.

Remember that is 30 psi flowing, the gauge goes to 45 psi (static pressure) when the valve is off.

The test bench at our new factory lab is a bit more "deluxe" We will take you on a webinar tour of the lab and factory May 24 Coffee with Caleffi

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exactly

@ January 9, 2012 3:48 PM in PRV w/fastfill

regardless of how fast the valve allows, if you are trying to bleed air just from just an 1/8 vent, what's the point.

I like the Webstone valves for that purpose, connect a wash machine hose to a ball valve and you can fill faster and blow out any crud in the lines at a good flow rate.

On larger air separators you often see a valve on the side to allow a fast means to purge air and catch any dirt that rises up, before it gets into your air valve.

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true

@ January 9, 2012 2:41 PM in PRV w/fastfill

piping a bypass around the valve could provide a little faster. But in fast fill mode, compared to competitors, we do a lot of testing to compare.

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depends on the brand

@ January 9, 2012 11:29 AM in PRV w/fastfill

some valves have a fast fill feature designed into them that does not require "babysitting" :) This valve will fill up to 5 gpm or so, depending on the incoming pressure, then stop at the pressure you dial in. No need to lift a lever, or build a ball valve bypass around it.

It also has a unique shut off valve built in for those that like to leave the valve turned off after fill and purging.

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horse power

@ January 6, 2012 7:56 PM in Amish

this Amish shop builds timber frame homes. The horses turn an old truck rear axle. The axle drives through the truck transmisson to regulate the speed of the long shaft. The saws and planers attach to the shaft with leather belts.

The smallest of all the barefooted kids running this shop keeps the horses moving with a BB gun if they get lazy. I didn't see him ever fire a BB, just picking it up gets the horses motivated.

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Best I can tell

@ January 6, 2012 7:45 PM in My setup

The upper pump, which appears to be bronze, is the re-circulation pump to keep all the DHW lines hot. The lower red one, which should also be a bronze pump if this is in fact a DHW system, moves the water from the boiler to the tank.

You might go to the Lochinvar website for a piping schematic and to make sure those pumps are sized correctly for the job.

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in SW Missouri

@ January 6, 2012 7:35 PM in Amish

wood and coal. Burned either indoor or out. They actually sell coal by the bag and I have bought some to add to my wood gasification boiler. Too smelly for me :)

A nearby McDonalds has installed a hitching post for the Amish that don't use the drive thru.

I do ask permission before I take their picture, not all Amish approve of photographs.

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Best stories ever!

@ January 6, 2012 9:14 AM in Best stories ever!

I just finished reading the "Classic Hydronics" that Santa brought me. Thanks Dan for making our industry, and the men and iron that bind them, fun and interesting. Again!

The closing story, especially the closing paragraph is a tear jerker.

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DHW temperatures

@ January 5, 2012 9:18 PM in My setup

you REALLY don't want to be sending much over 120F to your fixtures. Most codes advise 120- 122F. What you should have is a thermostatic mixing valve at the outlet of the tank. It regulates the temperature leaving the tank headed for the faucets. It should have an ASSE 1017 listing on it to assure it is listed for point of distribution use.

Stick a cooking thermometer under the hot water faucet to see exactly what you have. Make sure the system is up to temperature when you test it. If in fact you have 160, even 140F at the faucet, get it addressed ASAP!

You need to get a pro in there to see what you have, or need. A soft tissue lawsuit would be a lot more expensive than a thermostatic valve installation or repair :)

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a Ph stick meter

@ January 5, 2012 9:04 PM in Checking Glycol

is what you want. You should be able to pick one up for 100 bucks or less. I like the Hanna brand.

Really you should not need to check the freeze protection every year, unless you add water or more glycol it will not change.

The Ph is important. I would test that yearly to start. If you notice the PH level dropping you need to find and fix the cause. Often times it is caused by excessive over heating of the glycol. A stagnant (no flow) collector can exceed 325F. Solar glycols can stand an occasional over-heating, but not on a daily basis.

Check the label but the new glycol may be 10- 11 ph. if it drops into the 7's it may be time to boost the inhibitors or drain, flush and replace. and fix the cause of the over heating.

Some causes would be lack of load on the system, power outages, improperly programed control, etc.

Freeze protection can be tested with an inexpensive automotive tester. Some of the new cars now use propylene glycol as their coolant, and tester will read both EG and PG. If you test glycol for a living a refractometer is worth the money.

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Idronics 10

@ January 5, 2012 6:26 PM in WOOD BOILER PIPING

from Caleffi will be out in a few weeks. it is an issue dedicated to BIO and wood fueled boilers, including OWF un-pressurized types.

We recommend isolating the OWF from the hydronic system with a properly sized heat exchanger. Pipe additional boilers in parallel to eliminate circulation thru them while they are off line. An exception would be a boiler with a tankless (thankless) coil providing DHW.

Another common mistake is under sizing the piping from the OWF to the building. Spend the money to size and insulate these lines properly to prevent "thermal constipation" and excessive energy loss.

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for the numbers

@ January 4, 2012 10:05 PM in Freewatt questions

to work out I think you would need a constant use for the thermal energy it produces. Yes you may have a DHW load year around, but not enough heat load, to use the thermal energy produced causes the numbers to slip.

I don't know about noise, longevity of "combustion" air. I don't hear or see a lot of these running in actual conditions? Looks like the list doesn't either.

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think heat pump

@ January 4, 2012 8:17 AM in Electric versus propane and oil.

if you are considering electricity as your fuel source. What sort of supply temperatures do you require?

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a vertical separator

@ January 2, 2012 9:31 AM in Spirovent install

would be the easiest to pipe into that system.
Ideally you would want to pump away from the air purger with the pump on the supply and the expansion tank connected at that point. But if you are not up for that much change, a vertical sep just below the low water cutoff switch would work fine. The expansion tank is tied into the boiler, pump on the return, so air will be eliminated best at the hottest point, that being the supply.

While not exactly your case, this article might be a good read.

Under the Resources button on top, click on Dan' Stories, then look for this parable.

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