Joined on August 27, 2007
Last Post on December 7, 2013
@ December 7, 2013 11:21 PM in Rotation Indicatorsthe indicator will indeed spin if the pump is stuck or locked. It reads inductive currents. It spins when you read a solenoids also.
The demo I showed above has the pump locked in my vise and the spin-dicator was spinning.
It is still handier then opening the cover and checking voltage, to see if a circ is powered.
I have some from Grundfos and also Viessmann. Check with your local rep, they usually have a stash.
@ December 7, 2013 11:13 PM in flow check valvesshould do the job. If it is primary secondary piping, sometimes you need a check on supply and return. Especially if the P/S piping rises straight up from the primary loop.
Those pump checks are ideal, they have a cone shaped valve and a soft seat. Low pressure drop and noise-free. Low cracking pressure also.
If it is an old system, with iron pipe for example, a Y strainer or dirt separator is a good idea to protect all the components in the system.
The only drawback to those intergral checks is sometimes over the summer air can rise up and get trapped in the pump volute and cause a no flow condition. Some installers try to always mount the circ horizontal to prevent a high spot trap.
@ December 7, 2013 11:04 PM in alternative endurance flow switchthe actual switch, or are the paddles getting eroded away?
@ December 7, 2013 11:01 PM in Solar Drainback and variable speed pumpswhat size and type? Typically 1- 2 gpm per collector is about right. 1" tube is a bit large for that flow rate, you need to be able to maintain a siphon, oversized tube on the return may need to be balanced down. 1/2" may have been large enough?
What is the actual lift from the DB static level to the top of the collector? If it is under 20 feet you might be able to run a single circ like a 15-58.
Consider a controller with drainback function. That gives you a fill at 100% speed with adjustable time. Then a stabilization period, also adjustable. This helps prevent short cycling on start up. Once it is up and running the VS function will adjust the pump speed based on ∆T.
Time how long it takes to fill and establish the siphon, then adjust the filling time so the pump ramps to the required speed as soon as possible, once the siphon is estabilished.
The stabilization function ignores a shut off condition for the time period you select. This prevents the pump from frequent on/ off cycles on start up. Also handles that cooling concern.
You could use dual pumps, but you would not be able to VS an Alpha, so two 15-58 or whatever brand you prefer.
Install a schrader valve somewhere to pressurize the system, after you fill.
If the Goldline cannot vary the speed, don't bother. The new digital solar controls offer so much more for adjustability, basic data logging, nice displays, etc.
Include a lightning arrestor for the collector sensor, cheap insurance to prevent controller damage. i learned the hard way on two systems this summer.
@ December 7, 2013 9:34 AM in Copper Press FittingsIn some areas a second person is required to watch, whenever a torch is used. The cost of that second person on the job should offset the tool cost fairly quickly.
The customer pays the cost of the fitting and the parts, don't sell press fittings for the same cost as sweat.
@ December 5, 2013 1:15 PM in Taco Bumblebee Circulatorthanks for the updated manual.
I've not seen that elevation caution before?
In addition to pre-charge adjustment the exp. tank may need to be upsized?
On a 30 gallon capacity system from 12- 20 psi increase takes the tank from 2.8 up to 7.5 gallon expansion capacity, running 60- 180F water temperatures.
@ December 5, 2013 12:36 PM in Rotation Indicatorsit reads current, the pump can be powered and not spinning but the little indicator will spin. It is not an indicator of rotation, always. See the Grundfos below with the impeller locked in the vice. (don't try this at home).
I don't think it works on Tacos, or any of the ECM circs that I have tried.;
It will spin if you put it on a powered solenoid, also. Without the solenoid spinning :)
It is a very handy, "first check" tool, and conversation starting key chain..
@ December 4, 2013 3:03 PM in Pex fittings and flowwe are a brass company and we make thousands of unique fittings.
As you know the rest of the world uses the International fitting size BSP, British Standard Pipe, and metric diameter tubes. In some cases they cross over, like 1/2 CTS (copper tube size) and 15MM will cross over.
28MM may work on a 1" CTS which would be 1-1/8" OD.
We also built some brass and composite fittings that fit the GEO PE tube dimension, maybe that is a CTS size? We have couplings and MIP adapters for 3/4, 1, and 1-1/4 PE tube.
Let me know what ID tube you have, I'll bring up some samples :)
@ December 4, 2013 1:55 PM in too much heat 2nd floor!but if they did replace the flapper and stem, it must be a brand with the removable bottom.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Commonly spring return valves with high Cv numbers will have lower pressure shutoff.
For example a zone valve with a 1Cv could shut off against 75psi. A high flow valve with a 7.5Cv might only have a 20 psi shutoff. So if you system circ is oversized, or grossly oversized, it may not be able to shutoff flow completely.
The body in the picture is a 3.5 Cv and has a 30 psi shut off. We build zone valves with a 1, 2.5, 3.5, 5, and 7.5 CV the pressure shutoff or deltaP ranges from 75 psi on the low Cv to 20 psi on the high Cv.
It has to do with the size of the opening in the body that the spring has to close the flapper against. The larger them port, the lower the shutoff pressure.
Look down the center of the various valves and you will see how the diameter of the port changes from valve to valve.
Sometimes installers remove one of the two close off springs on certain brands of zone valves. That changes the operation, and shutoff ability of the valve, rarely is it a good fix for zone valve problems. The problem is the system piping and pumping, not the spring :)
Check the manual open lever, the spring (s), pump size, and how or why the "guts" were swapped. If you have a lot of debris in the system, consider adding a strainer or dirt separator to keep the ZV seats free from crud.
@ December 4, 2013 1:29 PM in Lochinvar Knight - single pump, 3 zone systemdelta P circs, not variable speed circs, per say. The D and the P are the key.
And I agree with the other posters you need to study the operation methods to determine which setting matches you system design.
I use the AutoAdapt on one of my systems that has TRVs, fixed speed on another.
Maybe checkout the webinar Siggy did for PM mag on delta circs, or some of generic articles on the products.
There is a bit of learning required before you purchase and install these newfangled pumps.
Don't just install them because a glossy ad in a magazine told you they are better for your system :)
And at the end of the day, or these long threads, only YOU can decide which technology will work best for YOUR design.
We are still aiming at a moving target with you system design, component selection, and questions.
@ December 4, 2013 12:06 PM in Pex fittings and flowthere will be a small pressure drop thru that fitting, but in your case not enough to cause a problem. The actual pressure drop depends on the flow rate. The more flow you try to move the more pressure drop.
At Caleffi we engineered the pex and PAP fittings to reduce this pressure drop. There needs to be enough brass in the fitting to take the compression force, when you crank the fitting down, so it is a balance act.
Tapered fitting, inside and out, with dual o-rings and a segmented olive (ferrule) all add up to an engineered fitting. Let me know if you want a sample.
@ December 4, 2013 11:47 AM in Frog Tape and IR Thermometerswomen and children inside during that test! Can't wait to see what you are up to.
@ December 3, 2013 9:48 PM in too much heat 2nd floor!something is stuck between the flapper or ball and the seat. Some valves have a port with a removable plug to check up inside.
Or the pump could be developing too much delta P and holding the valve open.
@ December 3, 2013 3:57 PM in Watts 'HAV' automatic radiator bleed valve?it goes dry/ wet. Typically once they vent air they shut down unless the system is drained down. Or sometimes first start up in the fall they will vent and seal.
Some brands have a built in ball check so the end can be completely removed, replaced or removed to prevent theft or damage.
@ December 3, 2013 1:11 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpthe pumps you are considering and see the pump curve. I "googled" Grundfos Alpha pump curve and this shows up.
Ideally the circ covers your load in the mid 1/3 of the curve. Don't select a circ that runs at the very top, or bottom of the curve, very in-efficient and un-healthy for the device.
Looks like speed 3 is the perfect setting if this is your circ choice.
Usually the boiler I&O manual shows pump requirement with a few different delta T choices.
The Grundfos and Wilo have the longest track record with small ECMs in our market.
The Xylem looks like a Laing design, good track record with that brand, probably fewer in the field here in the US. I like the two choices they offer, and the way the selector switch varies the speeds. The large brass nut for motor removal is quick and simple.
Just got an Armstrong Compass ECM, not installed yet but some nice installer friendly features.
At this point select the model that fits your application, deal with a company that you like and that stands behind the product.
They all circulate fluid just fine, failures are often caused by operator error, or harsh fluid conditions.
@ December 2, 2013 10:34 PM in Adding ferrous to closed system"From time to time, when I hear the heat-side pump making some noise (whooshing sound), I add a little bit of water to the system but that's maybe three of four times a year. That only seems to happen when there's a certain combination of loops running at the same time and trapped air gets worked around."
I'd start looking for a leak. You should not be adding water to your system on a regular basis, or ever!
Another possibility is a large circ, pumping away from that central air purger, and towards the expansion tank can develop sub-atmospheric conditions and allow a gulp of air to be sucked into the system. Fill and purge until the system is noise free and cap off that or any air vents. Monitor pressure for leaks.
Does the pressure drop to zero on an accurate gauge when you hear that noise?
Chemicals are not a bad idea but check into a leak first and remember chemical treatments need to be checked and maintained and boosted from time to time. Also if DHW is produced via that boiler water in a tank of HX, the chemical needs to be approved for that use.
Ferrous is common in pumps, boilers, pipes, expansion tanks, manifolds and most hydronic systems have ferrous components and last decades.
Rust and corrosion to the point of causing vents to fail is a second indicator of a leak and fresh water being introduced.
@ December 2, 2013 10:19 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpis that any ECM circ will be more efficient at moving the load, if that is one of your goals.
I'm not convinced a fixed delta t is desirable or advantageous on the boiler loop with a modulating, reset controlled boiler.
If you want a modulating boiler with a modulating circ, I believe Viessmann is the only "off the shelf" option.
The output for the VS boiler pump is on many of the boiler controls, but a US version of a circ to easily adapt to that signal is not quite on the shelves. An interface module is available for the Wilo, but the total cost gets a bit high.
However it is a common circ in the Euro market and when them numbers work out, expect to see the 120V version. I have a few samples of these circs built to OEM specs. Solar specific, ECM, PWM models including drainback versions. If you have 230V available you can find these circ online from UK and other sites and build up your own V/S boiler circ.
If one small 45W ECM circ can easily handle the entire distribution load, and dial itself in to the optimum flow rate, why would you want numerous zone circs?
Delta P circs were designed to efficiently move the load and adapt to an ever-changing flow requirement. They are a perfect match for zone valves or TRVs , why re-invent the wheel, or impeller :)
Personally I'd like to see a few tweaks to the BB before I consider it an equal to the other small ECM brands currently available. From my experience in fixed speed operation it is too noisey. In this day and age a circ should be run virtually noise frees. With only indicator lights or flow meters indicating flow. Decibel levels should not be in the same sentence with high efficient wet rotor ECM circ discussions.
I'd like to see delta p option included in the menu. Lastly the motor should be able to be rotated so the display is always right side up and easily viewed, and programed, regardless of mounting position.
@ December 2, 2013 6:13 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpwith multiple connection points instead of P/S is another option. The tank replaces the close tees and offers dirt, air, separation, and a nice port to insert the boiler sensor.
unless the required temperatures are more then 20° apart, one temperature is fine.
the Delta P circs are a nice match, zone with valves.
I like the Alpha, Xylem, Wilo, and now the Armstrong Compass are all good options.
@ December 2, 2013 3:41 PM in Vitodens Low Loss Header or Teesbecomes the load that the boiler "sees'. We added that sensor port to the Caleffi products, per contractors request, and it works very well. Same with a sensor port mid location on a buffer tank.
Consider a 4 in one device that offers excellent hydraulic, air, dirt, and now magnetic protection to keep those ECM circs happy and healthy.
@ December 2, 2013 9:24 AM in Adding ferrous to closed systemusually the rusting will stop after the O2 is depleted.
Perhaps fresh air is entering the system? Makes me wonder since the air vent continues to be needed. Usually once the system is purged and heated, the air elimination is complete.
Do you have a good working central air scrubber, Spiro, Caleffi, etc? That should remove all air, dissolved and entrained air also.