Heating Help

nice work

@ May 24, 2012 8:53 AM in Lochinvar install photos with centro-therm flue pipe

I like the clever expansion tank support. And the Autofill valve:)

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a backstage pass to an Italian manufacturing tour

@ May 23, 2012 9:45 AM in a backstage pass to an Italian manufacturing tour

Perhaps we all hope our children will follow us into the industry. In my son's case, Max would ride along on my install and service jobs. He had a keen interest and picked up on the concepts quickly. It seems, for Max, the business opportunities have enticed him to continue in our industry, more so than the physical labor.

Max likes the "behind the scenes" aspects. He appreciates the organization, and the how and where of the product design and manufacturing.

Together we started MAXROHR "Smart Parts for Neat Heat." We developed a line of brass pump flanges and isolation flanges back in 1994. The products hit the market at the very first RPA show at the Thunderbird Motel in Minneapolis. Max - 9 years old - manned the booth.

Recently, Max had a unique opportunity to spend a year working at a first class brass manufacturing factory in Italy. They rotated him through the different areas to get exposure to all the technology.

Returning to the US, Max worked at a very progressive wholesaler in the Chicago area. Then, the opportunity came along to move to Colorado and take a job with Shamrock Sales learning the rep business.

Tomorrow at noon central time, Max will present a 1 hour tour of the Caleffi plant and show some of the sites he visited on weekends.

With Dans permission I'd like to invite you to come along via a Go To Webinar presentation, follow this link

https://www1.gotomeeting.com/register/187886553



While my pulling on wrenches helped make much of this possible for Max, let the young people know there are great jobs in our industry in addition to the mechanics in the field.

hot rod

on

@ May 11, 2012 3:25 PM in boiler feed on or off?

Leaving it on is the only way it can do the job you paid it to do.

Put a feeder tank or a water or "feeder" pig instead if you don't want the valve on.

Never been to a problem job caused by an on valve, but plenty of no heat problems, have been reported with new mod cons that have pressure switches, if the fill is off.

"Evolve" is the key word here :) You'll be hearing a lot of that word.

New boilers equipped with pressure switches may require new fill valve procedures?

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Flow

@ May 10, 2012 8:44 AM in Best Insulated Pex

be sure you check the flow rate thru the tube. 1-1/4"  Pex with insert fittings will not flow the same as copper or steel pipe of that size.  The most common mistake is undersizing the lines from the units, then trying to over come that with high head circs.  The tube manufacturers should have flow charts for their various sizes.

I suppose it depends on your location, bury depth, frost levels, etc.  If it can expect to see freezing conditions that is a huge delta T.  180F or higher fluid in the pipe, 32F around presents a lot of loss potential.

I'm not convinced any of the pre-insulated products have adequate insulation.  Seems 1/2- 3/4' at the thinnest spot? 

 Some installers foam over the pre-insulated pex with spray foam.  Or lay a strip of foamboard down in the trench first,over a gravel drainage layer, the pex, then have it all spray foamed.

The bigger concern is water in the trench.  Do all you can to assure the tube in never in standing or running water. You don't want surface or ground water around the insulated tube. The outer jacket needs to be 100% waterproof also, any cut or rip in the outer jacket would allow water in and cause serious heat loss.  Spend time on your plan, it's an expensive re-do.

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pipe sizing

@ May 10, 2012 8:18 AM in boiler piping down from Attic

to maintain 4 feet per second.  If the flow slows to about 2 fps it will not move the air along with it and could cause flow or noise problems, especially in the vertical piping.  We see this in solar applications from time to time also.

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Ice

@ May 7, 2012 9:14 AM in PRV blues.....

Thanks for the polite discourse.

As a hydronic installer with 30 years in the industry I understand and recognize the systems you work on and service. There are many way to install hydronic systems and we all develop our favorite methods. I'm sure your customers are happy with the products and services you provide, or you might not be here discussing them.

I recognize the component numbers you mentioned above. For the past 4 years I have been working for Caleffi as a trainer and tech support person. We manufacture innovative hydronic, solar and GEO products in Italy, which are marketed and installed across the globe. We have a branch in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, since 2002.

This site is also a good place for installers service techs and owners to learn about products and how manufacturers continue to develop and improve products to be more efficient and offer solutions to problems in the field. Manufacturers come here, listen, and try to address problems and concerns with new products. that need has led to the development of products like the micro bubble separators and dirt separators.

A big focus of Caleffi is education and we have been very involved in training since 1950 when Caleffi was started. I'll post a link to some of the training material we share with the industry. We produce and distribute the technical journal I-dronics free of charge to the industry. I'd be happy to send you a set if you are interested. They cover a wide range of topics. I-dronics are technical journals, not a sales piece.

I don't bad mouth competitors and in many of our training materials we show competitors products. I will question some marketing materials at times :) We focus on concepts and good installation practices backed by engineering and intensive testing. Our ears are always open and when you talk, we listen Thanks again, happy sailing.

www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_2_2007_us.pdf


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same reason

@ May 6, 2012 8:27 PM in Why Is the US Always Last

Our streets are not lined with 45 mpg diesel powered cars. No market! Fuel costs have a lot to do with what we drive!


I agree the cost of listings and certification can be a huge factor. Freight cost, Dollar to the Euro concerns also.

These seem to be the biggest hold up on getting gasification wood and pellet boilers over here. Also the smaller European manufacturers, and there are hundreds of them across Europe, will not afford the process and are frightened by the implications of our legal system if a product fails from improper installation and or use.

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I get it

@ May 6, 2012 8:14 PM in PRV blues.....

I have heated water in a pan on the stove and watched the air bubbles.

I'm trying to understand you comment about water boiling in the air vents, or even evaporating from a sealed brass air vent?

All closed loop systems in my opinion should have a central air removal device, that is allowed to function. it needs to be able to release the air every start up that we both agree forms when the boiler warms.

If the cap is closed off the air cannot be released, small bubbles can form into large bubbles, causing noise and potentially the loss of flow. Some installers prefer a float type air vent on the high points to remove air that works it's way up. Notice quality radiant manifolds include float type air vents on them. Air handlers located in attics and high point radiators all benefit from a working air vent.

I feel the failure of the basic air vent is caused by the quality of the fluid inside the system. White deposits indicated probably hard fill water. Black sludge could be by products of manufacturing, flux, cutting oil pipe dope, etc. Or a system with non barrier tube allowing O2 ingress.

When the float drops down to vent any air, this "brackish" water gets onto the seat of the air elimination valve. That is my opinion of the failure. SOMETHING compromises the sealing ability of that small surface.

Certainly mis applying an air vent, or not selecting the correct vent for the application compounds problems. Mis applied high head circs can allow air into these vents also. which is why we sell check valve caps for air vents to help installers eliminate that potential until the cause can be corrected. often moving the expansion tank connection corrects the air sucking in. This concept is covered nicely in "Pumping Away" and also Modern Hydronics by Siggy.

If all systems were flushed and cleaned with a hydronnic cleaner and filled with de-mineralized water, vent failure would drop considerably.

Usually that same venting mechanism is used in central air eliminators. Discal, Spiro, Taco, B&G what ever brand you prefer. So the same problems occur in the more efficient micro bubble type eliminators as the basic float style that you show.

But a working vent needs to be somewhere in the system to eliminate the air you keep mentioning.

A catch 22 as you describe it. Vents need to be open to operate, Open vents are prone to scale or sludge which causes them to leak. This is why there is a large vent replacement market. It's not a perfect device, but it is as simple as a schrader valve on your tire stems of AC systems.

And isn't this the same issue with fill valves. With then isolated off you risk a no heat call when air vents out and the boiler pressure switch trips out, like on most all mod cons these days.

So every installer makes the choice air vent open, or screwed close? Fill valve open, or valved off. If you and your customers prefer a manual air venting every season, then closed is a good option, because we agree air "happens" If you leave themn open you run a good risk of them seeping someday.

Fill valves and auto fills fail from the deposits under the seats. My company manufacturers tens of thousands of these and we open and inspect returns. Ocassionally there is a manufacturing defect, bad seat or seal. 98% of the time they have debris on the sealing surfaces. Again it didn't leave the factory that way. Consider millions of air vents in operation. I doubt every one is replaces every two years. so there is a way to prolong their life expectancy.

Clean systems, best quality fill water, operating fill and vents is my idea of appropriate hydronics. But we all balance that against the COST of cleaning, flushing, running a cleaner, hauling or making DM water, and possibly adding hydronic chemicals that "condition" the fluid inside. These conditioners buffer ph, scavange O2 and provide a very thin film to protect the ferrous surfaces from corrosion. THIS procedure is the solution, I feel.

OR keep replacing air vents as a consumable component of the system. Like the oil filters on your engines :) We also sell a nice check valve for every vent to make that switch out quick and easy without loosing a drop of fluid. we understand installers want choices, we try to provide as many as possible, and you decide which are in your customers best interest.

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Perhaps

@ May 6, 2012 9:45 AM in PRV blues.....

The hydronic heating system in my home was installed in 2000. It has never been drained. It has no leaks and no air. I have had to replace numerous Taco #400 float vents because with the caps open, water works its way to the seats and boils or evaporates away leaving a powdery substance that promotes leaking. I would go to customers houses to turn water back on and find the 400's all leaking. I replaced so many of them that I expected to get blow-back from customers. I tighten the caps after filling and purging. I've never had a call back. I remember back years ago, having CI radiators get "air" and having to vent them. In retrospect, what I realized from here was that the system pressure was too low from defective of clogged PRV's. I don't disagree that you need to get the air out on the initial fill. Once filled, where's the air? I never see it and if I do, there is an underlying cause. The air gets absorbed, The oxygen and the nitrogen. I see air getting into systems where there are air handlers installed in attic spaces with float vents and not enough pressure. When the system goes off and contracts, air is sucked in through the open vents. Close the vents and raise the pressure. The problem goes away.
You guys here are the ones that pointed out higher system pressures. Something I hadn't thought that much about except when trying to fill a three story radiator system. I always fill from the top down, Well, it works well, and it pointed out to me what and how well pump mechanics are co-related with hydronic heating systems.


If you are having that many vent failures, consider another brand :) That is a well know and quality brand of product it should perform well if all the conditions are proper. If that model can be disassembled open the leakers up and see what is under the seat causing them to leak. If it is a layer of crud, teflon tape, copper shaving, etc it probably didn't leave the factory like that.l

If they seal properly when you first install them, they are probably not defective. something in the system fluid is probably causing them to seep.

But it sounds like a system design or installation issue, maybe. This sounds like the sympton of an open, or un-pressurized system? Are the vents installed at the PONPC? Does the system have positive fill pressure? If so how is water or fluid "boiling" in the air vent? Install a pressure gauge and see if the pressure is dropping at the vent to allow the water to boil.

Dan's book "Pumping Away" does a great job of explaining the point of no pressure change, how it works, why it is important, and the issues it can present in a system when not observed.

OWF installers that pipe in un-pressurized outdoor boilers some times create sub atmospheric conditions in the system which can cause the fluid to boil at the upper levels, attached is a graphic and explanation of how this is possible and the math to calculate why it happens.

The vent should be shutting off before water is at the seat. Maybe some fine crud in the system is getting to the seat, allowing the leak, not vice versa? More often than not it is dirt or debris in the system that works it way to the air vent shut off valve and causes them to leak.

I know the vents need to be installed level, or plumb so the float can move freely, some brands of air vents have the float riding on a center pin to avoid the float from rubbing the side.

Another thing you could try is installing a hygroscopic cap on the air vent. it provides a second level of shut off protection should the internal float valve not seal completely.

I'd be glad to send you a vent with a pinned float hygroscopic cap to see if that solves the problems, but look deeper for a cause.

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where's the boiling

@ May 4, 2012 9:45 AM in PRV blues.....

taking place if the heating device is running at or below 180F, and generally under pressure. Radiant mod con boilers may run as low as 100- 120F.

I don't see how you can eliminate all the air when filling a system with 12 psi, or even a fill pump at 30psi. Those small air bubbles need to have a means to circulate and make it back to a device that can trap and eliminate them. The ramp style purgers do not catch the small and micro bubbles, as a mesh type separator does. If they are mis-placed in the pip;ing or see excessive velocity ramp or scoop type air eliminators are of little use.

We have tested the media or micro bubble separators to 10fps and they still do a great job.

It is possible for a large radiant job with thousands, maybe tens of thousand of feet of tube to take days or weeks to eliminate all the small air bubbles.

If you install an air removal device at the boiler or a float type vent at high points, and screw the cap down tight, why bother installing it in the first place? If you have a means to eliminate all the air with an initial purge, save your customer the cost of the purgers and vents. But my experience shows that 100% complete air removal at initial fill is not possible.

If there wasn't a need for micro bubble elimination and small micron dirt removal manufacturers would not be spending millions to engineer and test devices.

As for O2 ingress, head over to www.Mrpexsystems.com and read through some of Tomas Lenman work in "Water and Pipes" he explains how this is possible in PE tube.


It's the same with boats, airplanes, etc, engineers continue to built more efficient, faster, quieter, more reliable products.

Great reading in the latest issue of Popular Science about the future of aviation and the planes we will be flying in years to come. And some cool paper airplanes to cut out and build. www.popsci.com

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try Larry

@ May 3, 2012 5:21 PM in Wichita KS techs?

larry@charleston-inc.com He is a supplier in Kansas City and ships a lot of solar and hydronics to that area. He has a good database of top hydronic and solar contractors.

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interesting info

@ May 3, 2012 10:51 AM in PRV blues.....

on the hull and wings.

I have seen test results from both manufacturers and independent labs on air and dirt separation in hydronic, hot and chilled systems..

A lot of time an money has been spent on research and development. I believe all the manufacturers have proven the concept of their media. In our lab we test our products as well as the competitors, I suspect other competitors do also.

I will say our test show that all the brands of the "micro bubble" type of separators perform well and are very close in performance.

I have a few dozen clear displays working under different flow conditions with various glycol and water solutions, seeing is believing! Our displays use a medium size aquarium pump to constantly inject air into the display. Large and small bubbles go in one side, virtually clear fluid comes out the other side. Other manufacturers have similar displays, often seen at trade shows.

Further test have been done showing the effect of dirt and air in boilers and heat distribution, and the fuel cost associated with air and dirt in systems. After reading pages of data I feel all of the major manufacturers have done their homework and appropriate testing and certifications on the devices on the market.

I suspect the aviation and boating industry has done studies and testing related to their design concerns. I'm not sure how or if the two correlate?

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sharp edges

@ May 2, 2012 10:17 PM in PRV blues.....

in an air removal device are what catch those small micro- bubbles. The more edges you present to the fluid stream the better you grab the small bubbles and allow them to form larger bubbles and rise to the vent.

By using a glass reinforced nylon (composite), for example, you can build the shape and present a lot of those edges for best air removal.

Some air separator brands use a wire core, like a large fitting brush. some use a mesh, and some rings.

It great to hear you have time to stop and smell the roses and watch the nightime sky, I'm envious.

Max traveled the territory with the Ecobee folks today. He was impressed with the product and the folks behind the product.

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always check the gunk with

@ May 2, 2012 5:19 PM in PRV blues.....

a magnet. If any sticks, then possibly something is allowing the ferrous components to "shed" Non barrier tube would be a suspect Rubber, PB, Solaroll, etc. Even the EVOH barrier tube will not stop the O2 ingress 100%, especially at elevated operating temperatures..

We are starting to see more and more seized ECM type circs after a season or two. That type of circ has a permanent magnet style motor and causes any ferrous pieces to stick. If you dis-assemble one, scratch some deposit from the impeller and stick a magnet to it.

One wise Heatmeister in Colorado keeps a sample of boiler water and condensate water from every job he visits. Taking a magnet across all those Mason jars will tell you a bit about what is going on in the system.

A top quality dirt separator, with magnents may be a wise investment with ECM, or any pumped system really. It is best to find the cause and correct an iron problem. but if it is tube in a slab, the only solution is an on-going chemical romance, HX separation, or a separator and maintenance program.

It is possible for the metallic media in air and dirt separators to decompose if the fluid ph drops. Overheated, or un-checked glycol systems would be one example.

The composite type media used in some brands is not harmed by bad water chemistry.

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you need a load

@ April 30, 2012 10:20 AM in Solar Thermal is Dead

for the thermal side of PVT. PV arrays can be fairly large so you need some place to use that thermal collection. i don't think it would make sense to cool the PV with thermal then run a dump to get rid of un-use-able thermal energy?

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what is is installed on

@ April 11, 2012 10:45 PM in My erie zone valve is passing water when not energized

and what pressure is it trying to close against? It should have a cap on the bottom to inspect inside the body. Drain off the pressure, remove the cap and look to see if a solder ball or teflon tape is lodged inside.

In some cases the paddle can come disconnected from the stem. i believe you can get a repair kit with stem, mo-ring, and paddle.

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seems partial to ETs

@ April 10, 2012 11:02 PM in direct system

I've never used a vacuum breaker on a drainback, don't see a need to? Also no need to have an open drainback system?

I'm not sold on a drainback evac tube either., potential for some serious stagnation temperatures, see pics.

With the Ritter system how often would the pump run to warm the tubes at night with the energy from the tank? What about up in the mountains where the temperatures were in the teens and lower.

To be fair you need to run a simulation for the area of installation at the design conditions. I doubt tubes out perform flat plates under all conditions, in all locations?

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all the showers

@ March 19, 2012 9:57 PM in indirect

at or about the same period of time? If so adding additional storage capacity could be enough. Pair an 80 or 120 gallon storage and recirc thru the 75. this gives you a big dump load.

Or generate the water as it used, I doubt that boiler has enough output to run multiple showers without additional storage.

Ideally you would calculate how many gallons of DHW are needed over that peek time period. without hard numbers it's really a guess.

I have never had a customer complain that I suppled an over-sized DHW appliance. but I have missed more than one by undersizing.

Consumption reduction is always the best 1st step. But at some point the customer dictates how much DHW they feel they need. Calculate that amount and size tanks, HX, storage BTU input, etc accordingly.

Or tell them you will supply X amount of DHW and you define the system.

Is solar pre-heat an option? Also solar simulation programs will tell you the high, low, and average incoming water temperature for a location..

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how long

@ March 16, 2012 5:49 PM in PEX vs. Copper vs. Rubber Hose

have you been testing it under conditions above it's listing? I would not risk a tube that is not tested and listed by the manufacturer for the temperatures you are considering. A typical flat plate collector stagnates at about 345F or so. Evac tube probably much higher.

In many cases the collector will be under stagnation conditions for extended periods, vacation homes, oversized DHW arrays, etc.

The exterior of the hose would need to be able to withstand the conditions it is exposed to also.

But the old Lennox solar collectors were connected together with a green colored silicone rubber hose with stainless clamps. i have seen that connector last 15 years in my area. I suspect silicone rubber hose would be a bit $$. I have bought 12" sections to repair and reinstall Lennox collectors, it makes copper look cheap :)


Steel pipe, especially the lighter wall like schedule 20 or the Wheatland MegaThread are a price point option.

If the new steel press fittings, that Viega has introduced, get a high temperature o-ring that could be a slick & quick installation.

The stainless flex is usually a dual tube with wire and, depending on the brand, a 400F insulation. Consider the labor cost savings of not needing to sweat, thread or crimp and the price is not all that far out of range. Especially with labor rates of $100, 200 and higher.

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how often does it snow

@ March 16, 2012 10:03 AM in Kitchen Drain Waste Heat Recovery

compared to how often they use DHW? It seems the DHW load would be a better use. If the dishwasher is dumping hot water down the tube, hot DHW must be going in the other end! Perpetual motion?

Refrigeration waste heat should also go into the DHW or heating loads.

I too would give the artichoke credit for thinking outside the box, energy is a terrible thing to waste.

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Evac tube

@ March 15, 2012 6:19 PM in Attaching Solar to 12" SIP Panels

some of the evac tube installations are supposedly "adequate" into just sheathing with multiple fasteners. Try the folks at Zillarac they seem to have unique mounting solutions often with engineering data to back them up.

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Evac tube

@ March 15, 2012 5:56 PM in Attaching Solar to 12" SIP Panels

some of the evac tube installations are supposedly "adequate" into just sheathing with multiple fasteners. Try the folks at Zillarac they seem to have unique mounting solutions often with engineering data to back them up.

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