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hot rod

hot rod

Joined on August 27, 2007

Last Post on July 23, 2014

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warm the floor

@ June 27, 2014 4:35 PM in Cast Iron baseboard clearance question

before you set the new tile. I've used this product, even sent some to my sister to install as she had her kitchen floor tiled. Tape or use a hot glue gun to "stick" it to the current tile. A notched plastic trowel to spread the thinset and stick the tile.

Nothing beats a warm tiled bathroom floor.

Electric radiant

@ June 27, 2014 2:20 PM in Adding hot water heat to a small bathroom

is ideal for small areas like that, glue it down, tile over it. There are plenty of cable and mesh options for small rooms like that. No need to fire that boiler to keep a nice warm bathroom floor. Nice control options also, setback, floor and air sensors,etc.

how much?

@ June 27, 2014 2:16 PM in Cast Iron baseboard clearance question

if you are just adding 1/4 tile in a thinset above the current floor, I doubt you will notice much output difference. Does the room heat well currently?

If the subfloor below the bathroom is solid and in good condition structurally I would not rip out a good solid mudset tile job, consult with a pro tilesetter for guidence.

There are a number of good closet flange extender products, "google" closet flange extender. I used a couple FTS-4 on my own home to extend a flange that was connected to old 4" cast iron, they have served me well.

I agree

@ June 25, 2014 9:23 PM in Thermal break at overhead doors

With the detail Mike shows. There is a foam strip with a H shaped plastic cap to protect it. After the pour, zip the top portion and fill that space with a polyurethane caulk. I like the detail where the door sets down 1" from the slab. That keeps water from driving under the seal. If a tube is within 12" of the door it will not freeze closed

check on discharge side

@ June 22, 2014 5:24 PM in Hot water first floor, luke warm water second floor

of the pump? it should be. Also a spring check with a cone, or soft seat is better.

Swing checks need a lot of flow to open fully, high Cv valves. They are prone to water hammer due to long travel distance, best for debris laden water like sump and sewage pumps.

Check valves SHOULD be sized by flow rate, not pipe size.

A swing check needs some back flow to shut tightly, a spring check is closed as soon as the pump stops. Consider a properly sized recirc pump with a built in check.

3 way mix valve?

@ June 20, 2014 11:24 AM in Hot water first floor, luke warm water second floor

in the piping?

keep an eye

@ June 19, 2014 10:06 PM in Can the boiler be the air scoop?

on that boiler, I don't see any return temperature protection. It looks like a lot of mass and water content if the building is piped with big steel pipe. That boiler may operate in condensing mode for some time at startup.

LH on a budget

@ June 19, 2014 5:10 PM in CI Rad, intlet & outlet setup - Bushings, nipples, elbows and TRV’s

You can buy the die segments from Ridgid and make your own nipples. You'll need a nipple tool to cut close nipples.

If you don't own a Rigid die head, pawn shops and e-bay are inexpensive sources :)

Or you can buy just the LH nipple without the coupling.

Left Right Ron is a fellow I know that works in the solar industry. He invented and makes this LH/ Rh adapter for connecting 1/2 copper to tanks. Solder the bushing onto the 1/2" copper, thread into the tank and bushing at the same time. He asked us (Caleffi) to quote these for him. We really need to make 5000 pieces at a run to be affordable. Our robotic machines would spit one of those fittings out every 10 seconds. It's hard to re-tool a machine for 100 pieces, and 20 minutes work.

You could buy these brass adapters from Ron and get all the 3/4 LH "holes" to 1/2" sweat. Then a compression style valve. Still may be too much $$

May need to look at the budget first, be nice to use those rads with TRVs attached.

Here is an example I built into a Duplex bushing to show how close you could build this if you had rh x lh nipples. This one happens to be 1/2, it's doable in 3/4.

The other side of the valves could be copper compression, I know out 15mm will work with 1/2 copper.

The 3/4 version would be 3/4 fip out the bottom.

true enough

@ June 19, 2014 2:17 PM in CI Rad, intlet & outlet setup - Bushings, nipples, elbows and TRV’s

TRVs are a European product and method, millions of them are manufactured every year over there. They really are a nice, non-electric, proportional control valve. Much better control than a hand wheel :)

I suspect the "look" of the device on a radiator is not quite what many US buyers enjoy. The control on the radiator does regulate just fine, plenty of electric baseboards with thermostats mounted on them in the USofA.

Every TRV manufacturer that I know, and there are dozens of them, offer NPT versions. I believe Taco sold them for a time also, probably a high quality Italian import :)

Below is a link to our international catalog, we have plenty of options, although not all are on the shelves in the US like WiFi enabled and Cv adjustable models.

I think I can find a simple solution if you need. I enjoy a challenge, and like to see that old iron stay employeed.

We also have an chain smoking, old timer machinest in Milwaukee that will build any adapter or thread you can imagine, he is always building custom parts for us. Really any true machinest can build a thread adapter, or custom nipple.

Online you can find L X R nipples in a variety of sizes and lengths, so all you really need is the correct NPT sized valve, with at least one union connection to get them side by side on your rads.

Looks like you have a variety of connection sizes. Are the large piped ones also LH thread?

It's not all that hard to drill and re-tap a steel or iron connection, if some are 1/2" LH perhaps drill and tap to 3/4 npt, or 3/4 to1" if there is enough metal around the opening. Plenty of valve options with NPT.

how has the system performed

@ June 19, 2014 11:16 AM in Can the boiler be the air scoop?

looks like it has been in service for some time. Does the system operate quietly?

That is really a "high point" float vent. It really doesn't do a great job of getting micro bubbles or entrained air out of the fluid stream.

If the boiler has a large space in that section, that can be the "low velocity zone" which allows air to separate and rise up to the vent.

The fact that there are multiple float vents installed may indicate an air removal problem. Those large pipes can be a challange to get air removed, you need at least 2 fps velocity to push air along with the fluid stream.

There are vertical microbubble type air separators on the market if you feel the system needs better air removal, it would be easy to install a vertical above the circ.

I see

@ June 19, 2014 8:31 AM in CI Rad, intlet & outlet setup - Bushings, nipples, elbows and TRV’s

I thought you could replace the bushing and get them all to Rh NPT, but I see now some do not have bushings.

Are they all 3/4" LH thread? I may have a work around with just a LH X RH nipple.

Is copper an option for going down thru the floor? How many radiators total?


@ June 18, 2014 4:17 PM in CI Rad, intlet & outlet setup - Bushings, nipples, elbows and TRV’s

why you can't screw the valves tailpiece directly into the radiator without the additional nipple and coupling?

Do you need to space the valve that far from the radiator?

By the time you add the TRV head that assembly is way out in the weeds :)

that valve is on the return side

@ June 18, 2014 9:34 AM in CI Rad, intlet & outlet setup - Bushings, nipples, elbows and TRV’s

flow goes into valve with TRV head, thru radiator and returns out the lock shield.

In your case it looks like this. The lock shield has a union, so thread the tailpiece into the rad with a radiator tool, (fits inside so you don't damage the chrome). then the nipple and valve on the other connection, connect the TRV head to either, probably want the TRV head to the front.

The union tailpiece is a BSP, but into a 1/2 NPT Loctite's in just fine.

If the pump is hot

@ June 17, 2014 11:05 AM in Noisy pump

and making noise it sounds like a cavitation issue. It sounds like a flow restriction. Maybe a kinked tube, blockage in the mix valve? Simple enough to dis-assemble the mix valve, pull out the cartridge, put the top back on and run it.

What size tube and how long is the loop that the pump is supplying?

Pump noise can be caused by air, cavitation, debris or crud in the impeller, worn bearings, out of balance, again debris in the system.

Cavitation can be caused by a restriction in flow to the inlet side of the pump, pointing to the mix valve or a partially opened isolation valve.

You have a good central air scrubber, but if the flow is not getting thru your loop, that air removal device cannot remove it.

You could add a quicksetter, or flow meter to check if or what flow the pump is moving. if you get heat from the zone, it must be moving some flow.


@ June 17, 2014 10:49 AM in CI Rad, intlet & outlet setup - Bushings, nipples, elbows and TRV’s

here are some old rad that I re-bushed for a homeowner. They came to me already sandblasted and powder coated.

Some of the bushings I had to saw slot and collapse to remove them. I used stainless steel bushings and ss nipples to add the Caleffi TRV and lock shield valves.

Both the TRV and lock shields have union connections, so all you need is to get the new nipples into the rads.

Locktite 272 to "glue" the new bushings and nipples in.

I built some pex adapter fittings also, but they decided to use copper stubs down thru floor, pex connected below.

These were straight across piping, I connected one to the boiler in my shop to see how they would heat up. After a few hours the entire radiator was warm from bottom to top.

I did drill and add 1/8 hygroscopic vents at the top also.

It would be interesting to ,look inside those rads and see where the flow goes. I have a small Rigid See Snake that would reach inside to look around.

This article

@ June 16, 2014 10:26 AM in Noisy pump

may better explain the options for piping a mixed loop of a zone like that.

do you know

@ June 16, 2014 10:23 AM in Noisy pump

how much heat, or how many gpm you need to move to the zone?

What is the loop in the bathroom? how many loops, how long?

Assume 6 gpm max for that 3/4 pex. The valve is fine for that, try the pump on speed 1 or speed 2.

You don't have valves in ideal spots for purging. Add a valve downstream of that purge valve. With the new valve off, you force all the flow to your vent valve.

You could add a air separator in the line for air removal, like a 3/4 Discal.

also the only way to get heat into that zone is for the loop that you connected into to be flowing. Unless you have a constant flow through that zone, you will not have any btus to give this bath "mixed" zone.

You could have a stuck mix valve, they are easy to disassemble, there is a spring inside to be cautious when you open them up.

I have run systems like this with the guts removed from the mixer to troubleshoot a flow problem. hard to know exactly what "mixed" temperature you would get, however.

Dave Yates

@ June 14, 2014 11:15 PM in Recirculating loop

has written some good articles on gravity recirc dos and don'ts. Heck we used to heat entire buildings with gravity HW flows.


@ June 14, 2014 11:13 PM in Noisy pump

send me an e-mail and I'll get that Excel to you. tried a PM, maybe check your junk file?

Did it ever perform properly?

@ June 14, 2014 11:10 PM in Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

It may have been mis-sized or ducted wrong from day one.

A flow hood would allow you to measure all the discharges and see what the current one is doing at the remote units especially.

Pulleys may have been changed or adjusted and it is not running to spec.

It could be a balancing issue.

all about flow rate

@ June 11, 2014 9:48 PM in Noisy pump

small 3 way thermostatic mix valves have a Cv around 3. So 3 gpm with1 psi drop, not a problem. Start flowing 8, 10 or more gpm and they will start to talk to you.

if you oversize a mixer valve, choose a 10 Cv valve, for example, and try to move low flow, the valve will not respond well, and provide in-accurate temperatures.

Determine what gpm the loop requires and select a mix valve with a Cv as close to that as possible. High flow residential mixers, usually have around a 5 CV.

Here is a spread sheet to calculate the pressure drop.

Take a 3 Cv valve, flow 10 gpm and notice the pressure drop. 10 gpm through a 3/4 pipe or valve, IF you have enough pump to provide that, would be over 6 feet per second, 4 FPS is the general flow rate to design hydronics around.

Also connection size doesn't always change the Cv, plenty of 1" valves with 3 CV.

maybe contact

@ June 11, 2014 3:45 PM in Donley Bros. Co. Vented ash clean out

that seller in Ohio. Looks like he speaks your language? Perhaps he has connections to the old Donley company. Keep working the www.
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