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Joined on February 12, 2005

Last Post on July 16, 2014

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Air Handlers

@ July 16, 2014 9:25 AM in Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

Sorry for the major delay. Got back into that building.

Major leakage in each AH room, and those sit outside the condos. That is being fixed as I type.

Question is, upper floors. They can only make 77˚ with 45˚ water circulating. Lower floors can get 68˚ no problem. Winter heating is fine, but they run 160˚ - 180˚.

1...What advantages do modern AHs and coils have over the older ones? They remove & add more BTUs from the air? Would modern AHs improve the upper floor's performance?

2...What is the math to get needed return grills sq" per 1000 CFM AH? There's just a few small floor registers allowing return air into the floor plenum then back to the AH room.

3...If air can barely be felt coming from the vents (bought hot wire anometer to use Friday) and the motor size & rpm is correct, other than pulley or dirty blades (all cleaned) what would reduce air flow so drastically? Some vents in the units barely feel like air is moving even though this AH is rumbling away. These AHs are huge. 



@ June 15, 2014 10:15 AM in Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

Condos since 1960. No changes. no extra units. No expansions or remodeling. Maybe some minor interior remodel here and there. 

AH design

@ June 15, 2014 10:13 AM in Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

Top 3 floors have 2) 2200cfm AHs. (3000sq' each, 2 per floor)
Next 3 floors down have 3)1600cfm AHs. (2000sq' each, 3 per floor)

Then smaller from there.

Top floor is 6000sq' and I have not seen the drawings on what was installed but it's easily twice the biggest units.

fan age

@ June 15, 2014 10:09 AM in Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

This is why they plan to just swap them anyway. Age, inefficiency.

If I pull the top cover off the front, massive air. Massive. Inside, not much.

No fire dampers.

A few balancing points in long, straight runs.

Most residents and managers have only experienced recent performance, which is low. Motors have been swapped with 1hp from 3/4, pulleys have been changed, and so on. I can find no other restrictions on the output side.

2200cfm seems like a lot, but there's barely any air coming out the far vents, and not much more closer to the AH. Glad they're swapping these.

The room the AH sits in is part of the return. The return just ends in that room, and you can open shutters to get outside air. Then the AH pulls from that space. In rooms with 2 AHs, if someone burns toast, the other unit gets that. This will be addressed when new AHs are ducted in.

over my head

@ June 15, 2014 10:01 AM in Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

Fan blades were cleaned last summer when I did a unit-by-unit cleaning of each AH. Fan and blades were cleaned, as well as the coils. Much better air flow, but not enough to satisfy the 3000sq' units.

Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

@ June 13, 2014 7:47 PM in Measuring efficiency of hydronic air handler?

Chilled water, 4-pipe air handler. 2200cfm. Big sucker, 1960 install.

Unit in question is 3000sq'. Not much air felt from the vents. Coils cleaned thoroughly. 45* water in, 55* water out from AH coil. At the tube, it's also about a 10* delta T. (10 stories, 26 units total)

One competitor wants to record delta T at the AH for a few days. I'm saying the inability to cool the unit down past 77* on a 90* day says more or as much as the 10* DT. I can increase building flow by cutting off bypasses in the attic at the ends of the runs.

The idea is to swap this AH with a new unit, I have specs in an email. What is the best way to measure the improvement from old to new, and what's the rule of thumb for CFM vs DT when figuring out why the bigger upper floor units can't get below 77* when 3rd floor units (west exposure) can get to 70* or lower with the same water temp?

How many BTUs to overcome......

@ May 5, 2014 10:46 PM in How many BTUs to overcome......

Winter? Saw this on another site:

"When I was in high school, this guy I sat near wrote his senior paper about how he was sitting on a cold day waiting for the bus and every time a car drove by he would be warmed by it, so he decided that we could heat the earth if everyone drove around with their windows down in the winter and for years after every time I ran into him he would tell me about global warming and how is theory was proving itself out. Every conversation we had, I could feel myself becoming dumber just by listening to the madness."

Lol.....I'm thinking everyone may need to open their windows, too.


@ March 31, 2014 11:25 PM in new forum for tekmar controls

"There has been a serious error with this forum"

I'll check back. I'm a Tekmar fan.


@ March 22, 2014 9:49 AM in Dave

May be used or customer supplied? Bought from Amazon or some rail damaged boiler supply or craigslist ad?

I see that all the time, and pass on most.

best fix?

@ March 19, 2014 1:56 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

So bids are coming in and the bidders want to use urethane and allow that to expand. Anyone hear of this?

The piece that fell in has dropped another 2-3", and the boiler has dropped about 2" now on that corner.

I assume I will have to re-level this beast because the injected material will just support it where it is? 

Big boy

@ March 17, 2014 10:03 AM in Thought some of you might enjoy this

Wasn't there teeth for these that made offset threads for pitch?


@ March 16, 2014 8:05 PM in Thought some of you might enjoy this

I have two very similar. My big one is up to 2". Estate sales. Love that stuff.


@ March 16, 2014 8:02 PM in How would you do this?

Stopped reading after "Brother In law" and "free labor".


@ March 16, 2014 5:21 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

Separate boilers. Heating boiler pictured. DHW is a leaking and going to rupture 8' tall tank and a 600k btu steamer and a shell & tube HX. Has DHW, no heat.

Their "boiler guy" maint guy left the fill on. It was shooting out the main vent all night. Almost up to my knees. Swapped the GVs on both boilers and the igniters. When I got there I asked him if he filled it last. No. Then I got back with waders and pumps and he had soaking wet pants and went in and closed the fill. That's when they had me put the auto fill on there, but that can't keep up with the leaks and is always on "LOC" these days after filling 3 tries then lock out.


@ March 16, 2014 5:16 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

Very close!

Traps are ALL original, 1905 era or so. If you pull one it rattles. So, not the fault of their maint guys. But, their guys do crank the pressure up to overcome steam loss out the leaking returns because no working traps. Building sounds like a silverware drawer in a dryer when it starts from cold. I installed a vaporstat a couple months back and when the DHW steamer was low on water and left them with no DHW, they turned the vaporstat up until it ruined it trying to get hot water. (Separate boiler)


Then the nickel & dime & 90 day thing.....

Now it's tenants complaining about banging on pipes with hammers and which traps exactly do we need to change to fix this?????


@ March 16, 2014 1:00 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

36 apartments. All the big ones I service are apartments, so figure 2-3 traps per apartment, all bad.


Band aids

@ March 16, 2014 12:59 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

Wait till I get pics of the 6" main with a quarter-sized hole in it, with a tumor of mighty putty all over it!


@ March 15, 2014 9:00 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

Almost. They have had prices to fix the leaks for months and months. Same for traps.

Now that the boiler may drop through the floor, they want prices to save that. Only the most dire issues get fixed. Sad, really. Could be much quieter and cost less to run and all that.


@ March 15, 2014 8:12 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

No. They have dirt now, and that settles.

You and my customer both need a sump pump since no sewer that low.

gas and power

@ March 15, 2014 8:11 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

As I mentioned in first post, I saw that and killed gas, water, power. No way I would leave that in service.

Nothing will be fired back up until it's leveled, vent checked, and the 2" gas line checked. It is pulling the strut that supports the main & gas line right off the ceiling. It has dropped another inch or so.


@ March 15, 2014 8:05 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

They got one price later Friday to pump in cement or grout. No discussion of the leaks.


I re-piped it for the last guy...

@ March 15, 2014 8:02 PM in Has a sink hole ever tried to swallow up a boiler you service?

I'll see if I can find the original pics that I fixed. No slab to make it level, or anything. Piped in & out. No under slab returns. This water was from that flood, and 60-10 Gallons per day leaking and finding it's way under there. The sewer is along the ceiling of that room, and no sump down there. DHW tank is 120-150 best guess size, and has a pin hole in it's side already. I tried to explain if that sprays tonight or any time soon, they can be up to their arm pits!

The 4" main pictured (90˚ elbow) was 3/4 filled with water because it's so low, it was the low spot in their main. I saved that 90 with the water mark inside.
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