Heating Help

People who live in glass houses...

@ April 22, 2012 10:36 AM in Radiant WIndows exposed

Can now at least be comfortable. And if they want to throw rocks, let' em. Every one of these windows HAS to be safety tempered. IF they are lucky enough to actually hit the glass with a significant point, the glass breaks into the small corn shards, not the long deadly sword shards associated with conventional float glass.

And we, as comfort contractors, now have the ability to deliver an excellent radiant comfort condition, even in areas with highly glazed North facing areas.

ME

Solar, absolutely...

@ April 22, 2012 10:30 AM in Radiant WIndows exposed

Why not take a resource that is "free" and use it to pump solar energy into places it is badly needed, and never shines.. that being the North facing windows. One could actually "bank" solar energy on the North side of a building, thereby increasing the MRT, and allowing it to drift off over night until the sun starts shining again the next morning. In situations where the voltage is low, the bus bars are applied to the long legs of the window, giving us a path of less resistance, giving higher wattage with lower voltage.

If nothing else, a person could use stored solar electricity to maintain the windows in a "thermally opaque" condition, meaning the room does NOT lose any of its heat through the heated windows, and then fall back to off peak electricity at night to actually help heat the home. Homes typically lose about 25% of their energy thru the windows...

Speaking of off peak electricity, we have some preliminary designs utilizing this very same glass, except 1" thick, that can be used for off peak thermal energy storage similar to the STEFFES systems that are out there right now, except if one of our wires fails, we can fix it without having to completely disassemble the whole shebang to fix it. And I have already incorporated a very efficient hydronic component into this very design (think aluminum heat transmission plates and copper tubing to extract the heat out of the glass and put it into the water.

The future for solar and this product are VERY bright. In fact, we have some existing customers with PV solar in the mountains that want to incorporate our heated glass over their arrays to remove major snow accumulations that would block the collectors for up to 2 weeks, if allowed to clear on their own...

Exciting stuff for sure. Thanks for the kudos.

ME

The boiler pump could be your problem...

@ April 22, 2012 10:07 AM in PRV blues.....

If it is corroded, AND the DHW coil has a significant pressure drop (most do) AND the pump is pumping towards the PONPC, it IS in a high head production mode, and IF the pressure reducing valve "sees" the low pressure the pump is generating because it is pumping towards the PONPC, it WILL allow additional water into the system every time that pump runs, and eventually hit the relief valves threshold setting (30 PSI).

Replacing the corroded boiler pump will probably help for the time being.

Buderus is not the only European company that regularly violates the PONPC condition. Their assumption is that the pressure drop through that circuit will never be high, therefore it is not an issue.....

ME

What a tragic story...

@ April 20, 2012 7:57 AM in What they do in England

Makes one think about what it is that we work with on a daily basis... Gas, flame, CO, steam, hot water, ALL can be deadly if improperly handled...

I'm not certain I could go on living life if I had a situation similar to what this guy has experienced. I think I'd curl up and die...

Travel safe out there, and always THINK before doing...

ME

Warm Earth Worms....

@ April 20, 2012 7:43 AM in Radiant Tubing Installation

Unfortunately, there is not a recognized industry standard, only manufacturers installation instructions, and none of the reputable manufacturers I know of would ever approve of that methodology for tubing installation. Common sense also says it is not wise to hang a hot tube on a cold exterior rim joist.

Best recommendation would be to place extruded aluminum heat transfer plates with the tubing tightly snapped into the receiver to get it into the right shape.

The Radiant Professionals Alliance has merged with the IAPMO organization, and it is their intent to produce an actual hydronic "code" standard that will eliminate (hopefully) crappy installation methods like has been deployed on this project. I look forward to assisting in that effort.

Go here to see an excellent article by a respected industry educator/engineering type regarding staple up tubing installation.

http://www.radiantengineering.com/PlatelessInRadiantville.pdf

While there, check out their extruded aluminum heat transfer plate. I tested them at the college I used to work at, and they are VERY effective.

ME

Glad you found the cross connect...

@ April 20, 2012 7:20 AM in Tankless diagram needed

I know how frustrating THAT can be...

So long as the PEX tubing you use has an oxygen barrier on it, you can use ferrous components in the closed loop. If it is non barrier, then you need to look at the boiler manufacturers warranty closely (some don't warrant if used with non barrier PEX)

Due to the fact that you have two extreme temperature demands, you will have to set a mixing valve to limit the supply hot water temperatures going to the low temp call during a simultaneous call situation.

I prefer the use of the Lochinvar boiler, which does allow for two different (actually up to 3 different) calls for heat of differing values.

With your tankless water heater, there is still a good chance of you experiencing what is called a "cold water sandwich", which should be self explanatory. Tis the nature of the beast... The usual "fix" is knowing when to or when NOT to jump in the shower after you've turned it on. The basic problem is a lag in logic, and over/under reaction of the heat source. Once it is "locked in" to a constant load, hot water remains constant. It just takes a few minutes to wake everything up and get it moving in the right direction, under tight control.

ME

Round up the usual suspects.....

@ April 20, 2012 7:05 AM in PRV blues.....

Are all pumps pumping away from the PONPC? If no, can the pressure reducing valve "see" the negative pressure being created by the circulator?

Can the DHW loop "see" the expansion tank when it is running (check valve that wasn't working before that suddenly started working)

Has the diaphragm become "stuck" (try firing the space heating system, smallest zone and see what the pressure does)

If it worked before, what's changed since then?

You'll figure it out....

ME

I had heard....

@ April 19, 2012 11:06 AM in Radiant WIndows exposed

and I think I also read it somewhere, that the 56 and 57 T Birds were the first, but this link says otherwise...

http://www.glasslinks.com/trivia/trivia3.htm

Like all other radiant products, looks like it got too expensive and was discontinued, even in the after market. ;-)

Would you like to buy one for your office so you can say that you have the 2nd radiant window conditioned hydronic's office in the World (the FIRST is in Heeney Colorado)?

I think I owe you lunch...

ME

Long running manifold...

@ April 18, 2012 9:43 AM in hydronic heated floor not warming...PLEASE HELP

JD, It was common back in the day, to have a "long running manifold", which is probably under the cover of the slab. Individual branches drop off of the piping below the floor as it goes along the supply route. This can be problematic, as you well know, because each branch is an opportunity for leaks or stress failure points.

It's not missing, its just spread clear across your floor, below grade.

You could probably find it with a good IR imaging camera if you had to. See if your local fire department has one they might let you "borrow". Most all of them have them for finding hot spots in fires that have been recently extinguished. They are recycled from the war effort.

ME

Incorrect piping practices...

@ April 18, 2012 9:35 AM in hydronic heated floor not warming...PLEASE HELP

From what I can "see", based on the pictures, the boiler is not piped in a primary/secondary configuration, which is critical to the proper operation of the "system". Incorrect piping results in the boiler short cycling, which leads to plugged up heat exchangers. Plugged up heat exchangers can lead to the spillage of the products of combustion, and that is NEVER a good scenario to be in.

The methods and manners of piping indicate that they system was not installed by a professional. We don't typically use plastic around the near boiler piping. Usually it is copper or steel, and the plastic is limited to distribution lines, away from the boiler. None of the piping is properly supported. Code requires the plastic piping to be anchored every 24 to 30" or at every change in direction.

It is extremely hard to judge this system without having a piping schematic, but it just doesn't look right to the trained eye.

Was this system installed by a licensed professional, or a weekend DIY warrior?

ME

You're right...

@ April 18, 2012 8:31 AM in Buried copper piping leaks

I DON'T want to know what you did in your (hopefully) younger days. Especially if it has to do with fuel oil, torches and copper pipe. ;-)

Just can't figure why a fuel oil line would have such substantial expansion contraction differential, unless the fuel oil was heated due to viscosity.

Copper can do some really strange things, as can all pipes.


ME

Hmmm...

@ April 17, 2012 10:51 PM in Buried copper piping leaks

That doesn't fit what I thought the failure mode would be based on expansion growth potentials. If the main were moving 1.5", I'd have expected the fault to be parallel to the flow, not at a right angle to the flow. That mode of failure would indicate to me significant branch horizontal movement at a right angle to the main.

Have you experienced more than one failure?

How old is the system?

Why the 120 degree DT? 70 to 190?

Is there no outdoor reset on this system?

There is always the possibility that the fitting was defective right out of the box.

ME

You'd probably get a better response by taking your question to the Steam section...

@ April 17, 2012 9:54 PM in Piping on one pipe boiler

Just thinking out loud here...

ME

There must be a manifold someplace...

@ April 17, 2012 9:43 PM in hydronic heated floor not warming...PLEASE HELP

And once you find it, you will be closer to resolving your issues... Look in closets, crawl spaces etc. The line coming from the zone valve is coming from that manifold, and you probably have an air bound circuit or two to contend with.

You do have a lot of other "issues" that need to be resolved in the mechanical room as well that WILL come back to haunt you.

ME

Try Grundfos...

@ April 17, 2012 9:39 PM in Residential Booster Pump

They make a series of pressure boosters that don't need a tank, are soft start and variable speed. I've seen numerous of them deployed in the filed, and only saw one that had issues, and it was on a well system that is loaded with sulphur and iron.

https://www.plumbersstock.com/34468?gclid=CJeQpvGhva8CFWvktgodMBJgyA

ME

Need more information about the method of failure...

@ April 17, 2012 9:19 PM in Buried copper piping leaks

Was the branch coming off the top or the bottom of the main?

Was the elbow pointed parallel to the main, or at a right angle?

Where was the crack in relation to the flow line? In other words, at the beginning of the fluid entrance to the el, or at the end?

You describe a "coil". Is this a fan coil unit, or an in cementitous radiant floor coil?

How long is the 1" branch, and how is it anchored to avoid movement?

Your options of expansion joints are fairly limited. You can do the long legged U tube, or the radi type, but can not use a mechanical joint (trombone with O rings) nor should you use a corrugated type of flex connector below grade. And you definitely can't use any type of mechanical joint below concrete, unless access in the future is guaranteed, i.e. an access panel at the actual device.

As I previously noted, in order for an expansion joint to work correctly, the pipe must be anchored such that the growth potential is direct towards the expansion joint.

Lastly, the only way to determine wether the failure was stress or erosion is to split the pipe and fitting length wise and look for signs of erosion. Remember that horses always walk up stream.

ME

Not recommended...

@ April 17, 2012 12:23 PM in Tankless diagram needed

In your own words, "Reliability and cost is important." Doing this will not give you years of trouble free service. It will result in heat source failure, and eventual complete replacement. The tankless was made for a very large differential in temperature. Radiant floors can not provide that necessary differential, and consequently, it will short cycle and die an early death.

Every tankless heater I have seen that was misapplied in this manner suffered a horrible death within 5 to 7 years of having been installed. I would suggest in stead that you look into one of the fine modulating/condensing appliances on the market, and use a indirect or reverse indirect DHW heater to satisfy your hot water needs.

You have one chance to do it right, or you can do it again, and again, and again, and end up spending more money than you would have spent to do it right the first time. ANd then there is the inconvenience of unreliable heat source....

ME

You guys are forgetting one critical component of heat gain...

@ April 17, 2012 8:58 AM in Ventilating a Cape attic

That being RADIANT energy, which is not significantly affected by convection. You are looking at the convective and temperature differential potentials only, and not the major driving factor in heat gain, that being radiant energy.

The BEST way to address the radiant load potential is by either creating a reflective surface on the solar absorption side (hard to do with a dark slate roof) by using a light colored, reflective roofing material, or reflect it away from the internal absorptive surface (attic insulation) by using a reflective insulation. The problem with an internal reflective insulation is that it is significantly negatively affected by the presence of dust,which IS in EVERY attic.

If it were my attic, I would place polyisocyanurate (SP?) insulation in the roof (not to be confused with ceiling rafters) rafters, sealing it tightly with reflective tape. This will reflect roughly 90% of the radiant energy back to the source, thereby significantly reducing the solar gain potential, and reducing the amount of air movement required to maintain a reasonable attic condition.

As for attic fans, if it is necessary, I would recommend the use of a solar powered attic fan to draw the warm air out during the summer months, based on a temperature differential, and NOT a fixed temperature set point. Running a fan to exhaust 90 degree F attic air with incoming air that is equal to or close to that temperature is absolutely a waste of electricity. You can't cool a warm attic with warm air.

Avoidance is the best bet. If that is impossible, then reflectance just below the source is next best. Forced ventilation using a fixed set point control is the least effective means of reducing the cooling load, unless all other potentials can not be done. Differential temperature control trumps fixed set point controls every time. You have to think outside the attic ;-)

There are also a lot of DCECM fan motors out there that can be operated on a variable speed basis based on Delta T.

Cool eh... :-)

ME

Doesn't sound good...

@ April 16, 2012 4:26 PM in Hot Water Heat

First, the boiler still being at 100 degrees F after numerous days sounds like you have a large standing gas pilot, keep the beast warm. Wasted energy.

Secondly, if the appliance hasn't been fired, and the heat exchanger has been kept up above 70 degrees F, then I seriously doubt that you are looking at atmospheric condensation (dew).

If the appliance WAS firing when you saw the puddle, it could be flue gas condensation, but doubtful. I think your berler has sprung a leak. It is time to start educating yourself as to your replacement options, and go at it from the stand point of an intelligent consumer about what you can and can't do, and what the expected savings in operation could and should be.

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions you may have. As web site name implies, we are here to help.

ME

Mikey...

@ April 16, 2012 9:52 AM in ME'S - Book/Manual

It is still a work in progress. When I got my recovered files back, many letters were substituted with symbols, and I have to go through each and every one of them looking for defects, and trying to remember what it was that I was trying to purvey, making corrections and saving them down and backing them up. That work is complicated by actual revenue generating work, and as we all know, that takes priority.

Thanks for your patience.

ME

Got pictures???

@ April 16, 2012 8:05 AM in Buried copper piping leaks

Copper has numerous means of failure, including stress from expansion and contraction, It can also fail from excessive velocity, known as hydraulic erosion corrosion.

BTW, if you do decide to install an expansion joint, you MUST anchor the main on the opposite ends of the system in order to direct the expansion/contraction potentials TOWARDS the expansion acceptance device. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and money. And as has been noted, if the branches are not properly set up, you will simply transfer the stress to another part of the system. Outdoor reset controls, and continuous variable speed pumping can go a long way towards alleviating these stresses. They can't eliminate them completely, but they can be alleviated significantly.

ME

OK Eric, I'll bite...

@ April 15, 2012 6:56 PM in Polaris used for radiant heating & domestic hot water.

Tell me HOW you can make one of these systems TOTALLY safe under ALL conditions, and I might buy into your theory.

I'm listening with open ears and an open mind. Please shine the light and show me your way.

ME