Joined on November 24, 2007
Last Post on March 11, 2014
@ March 6, 2014 10:09 AM in HELP with new steam boilerThis would be a great application for a burner on the new boiler with an adjustable firing rate to match the present EDR all the way up to later increase in radiators etc.
I don't have any oil experience, as I only have a gas atmospheric, with more limited possibilities for adjusting the firing.--NBC
@ March 6, 2014 9:59 AM in System pipingDo I understand that the dry return gradually slopes down, until, at the waterline height, it becomes wet?
It would be better to have a definite change, with a vertical drop from dry, to wet.
The reason for this is, as the pressure rises in the boiler, the waterline in the wet returns is pushed up to a new level. This rise in height will be 1.75 inches, for every OUNCE of pressure. This means more water will have left the boiler to temporarily fill up a longer length of pipe (think hypotenuse length, instead of vertical length). A situation like this can cause a very unsteady waterline, with shortened life.
Definitely readjust the slope of the supplies so they start high, and slope steadily downward to the final vertical drop. Piping as a drop header is better for drying out the steam, as well as making the final connections from boiler to header (for the novice). In addition, the drop header will trap any oils which have not been able to be skimmed off, and at least keep them from interfering with the boiling. A tee on the equalizer at just below waterline height wit a ball valve will enable draining off this oily residue.
Make sure that any wet returns are well below the waterline, by raising the new boiler, or lowering the returns.
Get a 0-3 psi gauge so you know when to stop adding main vents to the dry return. If you size the boiler right, you probably will not be building too much pressure except when it is really cold out.
A wet-base boiler with a burner whose firing rate can be adjusted would enable you to dial in the firing rate to accommodate any changes in radiation EDR (extra rads later etc.)--NBC
@ March 5, 2014 11:01 PM in steam pressure constantly releasing?If the Pressure release valve is opening, then that is a life safety problem. It is because of excessive pressure. This situation is probably a result of a malfunctioning pressuretrol/pigtail, and should be corrected immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the main vent is making a lot of noise, then it is only a question of money, rather than personal safety, so you can choose when you want to burn less fuel anytime. A noisy vent on a radiator, or a main vent which is noisy indicates a need for some maintenance. You may have been paying extra to push the air out of the system, instead of allowing it to escape with no resistance.--NBC
@ March 5, 2014 7:54 PM in Boiler replacement?It sounds like the end.
Start measuring the radiators for correct sizing of the replacement boiler, and make sure the installer knows how to read the instruction manual for piping diameters, and layout. Maybe that should be in the contract.--NBC
@ March 4, 2014 11:32 AM in Carlin Gas Conversion or new oil tank?Damned if you do, and damned if you don't .
If you switch to gas at a higher cost than replacing the tank, you probably won't save enough in three years to pay for it. If you fix the tank, the prospective buyers in the future will try to get a discount as you are burning an inconvenient fuel.
Try the find a contractor button at the top for one of the experts here as opposed to someone from the yellow pages.
Don't be mislead by boiler efficiency figures, as it is system efficiency which is more important, aided by good main venting, low pressure, and correct boiler piping.--NBC
@ March 4, 2014 11:04 AM in Venting QuestionThis fills all the mains with steam first(because of lower resistance to the escaping air).
After the mains have all filled, the steam can then overcome the slightly higher resistance of the rad vents to flow into the rads--filling all simultaneously.
If you had no main vents, and large radiator vents, then the radiator closest to the boiler, in pipe feet would get steam first, and the radiators would fill sequentially in order of their distance. Before the last one had filled, the thermostat may have been satisfied, and the last rooms would still be cold.
This really a matter of balancing the resistance of the vents to the escaping air. A 0-3 psi gauge should show a back pressure of 2 ounces if you have enough main venting. When the main vents close, the pressure will rise, as the rad vents are more restricted. Air will leave each radiator at the same rate, ensuring simultaneous steam arrival.--NBC
@ March 4, 2014 5:50 AM in copper in 2 pipe steamCopper piping on the supplies is considered to be a liability, mainly because of the effects of the greater expansion and contraction of copper versus steel. These forces can cause the soldered joints to yield, or can sometimes put enough force on the sections of the boiler to force them out of alignment.
On the wet returns, the temperature fluctuations are not so extreme, and there is only one point of connection to the boiler, so the non rusting qualities of copper are a plus.
With regard to the main sucking air, is this from a main vent somewhere on the return? Generally, on 2-pipe systems, the air is vented from one location, which may have had a vacuum check valve to enable the system to run at sub-atmospheric pressures in the days of coal-fired boilers. Opinion is now devided as to the benefits/disadvantages/strategies of running a modern gas-fired boiler in a vacuum, but some are trying it.
Whether vacuumized or not, the system at the start of firing after a period of activity must push out the air before the steam can arrive at the radiators. Large main vents on that central venting point let the air escape with no resistance (back-pressure 1-2 ounces). A good low pressure gauge of 0-3 psi will show you what is happening. The advantage of the sub-atmospheric system operation is less air to push out each time the boiler fires. For best results, the vacuum should be equally distributed throughout the system.
Some pictures of the boiler piping, and of the radiator supply/return/traps/etc would help to identify the system, and develop strategies for it's continuing economy, quietness, and comfort.--NBC
@ March 4, 2014 4:43 AM in Gorton #C steam vent valve replacement + hammering/clanging noiseIf the change of vent is the cause,I would have thought that the hammering would have started as soon as you had changed the vent, instead of 3 weeks later, if you can wear a sweater, put a plug in the vent tapping, and see if the hammering is lessened.
Either one of your neighbors has made some change in his radiator, or the system pressure has changed.
See who else in the building may have noticed some hammering, and go from there.--NBC
@ March 3, 2014 10:48 PM in Help me ballance my 1 pipe steam Please!In the spring it may be time to get the Baltimore guy over again, and have him do what needs to be done.
Since you did not take advantage of all that he could offer, during his visit, you have not only been suffering the inefficiencies, and discomforts of an apparently improper installation, but also the higher cost of oil per therm.--NBC
@ March 3, 2014 10:37 PM in Leaking curved steam radiatorsWhat a beauty! No wonder you want to save it.
I think the push nipple radiators had a threaded rod or even two to hold the sections together, but with a curved radiator, probably the only force holding the sections together would be the threads of a LH/RH threaded nipple.
As far as the pressure of your interesting system goes, 1psi might be tops, and maybe 2 ounces would be better, as it looks like a "trapless system" with a water seal in the end to keep the steam from leaving the radiator and causing hammering in the returns.
Most of us here have a 0-3 psi gauge, reading in ounces of pressure to fine tune our vaporstats. Good luck.--NBC
@ March 3, 2014 10:01 AM in Banging in relation to PressureYou can do all your heating at well under a pound, even at 4 ounces.
There is probably a horizontal section supplying the radiator which is pitched backwards. Did you try raising up the radiator an inch or so? This will sometime correct a sagged horizontal which is halfway up the riser.
Don't rely on the settings of the pressuretrol without verifying the pressure with an accurate 0-3 psi gauge. When you adjust a pressuretrol down below its minimum, the linkage can disconnect, and allow the pressure to rise up too high. Those devices are works of the Devil! --NBC
@ March 3, 2014 9:22 AM in Knocking and hammeringSince this is a 2-pipe system, then the next area to examine would be the traps. They should not be steam hot on the discharge side. There are probably crossover traps as well which should also be found and checked. New trap elements could be ordered from one of several suppliers to save the ordeal of having to change the spuds.
I second the advice to get the steam books here.
Don't forget the pictures, although I am thinking that this is a case of sudden trap failure, unless you can see some change which has been recently made.--NBC
@ March 3, 2014 9:15 AM in Pressure QuestionsI have always thought of noisy vents as a sign of over pressure and under main venting. Is the connection under the new pigtail free and clear?
Turn the boiler off, and unscrew the gauge, and fire it briefly, to see if the boiler tapping may be plugged. Even a 0-15 psi gauge, is rather inaccurate for diagnosis.--NBC
@ March 3, 2014 9:05 AM in Leaking curved steam radiatorsCongratulations on wanting to restore rather than replace!
If this is 2-pipe steam, the pressure should be pretty low (ounces of pressure)-what is yours?
Can you post some pictures?
Most radiators have either a screwed nipple, or push nipple joining the sections, where I assume the leak is. Since this radiator is curved, it probably has the screwed nipples, with RH threads/LH threads.
I believe that someone here has the name of a machine shop which can remake the nipples, and hopefully he will post the contact details.
The only question I would have in such a case would be whether to replace all the nipples in the rad, instead of just the leaker.--NBC
@ March 2, 2014 11:58 PM in Thermometer Heating Survey in my Coop BuildingsShow us some pictures of the boiler, and it's piping as well as the radiators. This sounds like the usual system imbalance, complicated by the probable extra distance the steam may have to travel to the farthest radiator in the non-boiler building.
The pressure control would be on the boiler, and not part of the Tekmar controller. It's function is similar to the governor on an industrial engine, limiting in this case the maximum pressure which can be attained by the boiler. In my 55 rad system, the limit is 12 ounces using a vaporstat. If regular maintenance has been spotty, this control can plug up, and the resulting over-pressure travels more slowly through the pipes, costs extra money for fuel, and causes discomfort and imbalance. Lower pressures require maximum main venting, and it is not enough to think because the vents are on the returns, that they are adequate, or even working. Unfortunately, the code required 0-30 psi gauge found on most boilers is useless for the sort of diagnosis you will soon be doing, and so most of us have a 0-3 psi gauge for that purpose.
When these buildings were built, the temperatures in the apartments would have been only a few degrees different from coldest, to warmest, and the job is to return them to their original state of perfect operation.
Another tricky feature of any multi building system with a single boiler, is making sure the boiler is not temporarily starve of water as some distant condensate tank is slow to pump the water back.a good steam pro assisted by your observations can get this system back on track for a relatively small per unit cost.--NBC
@ March 2, 2014 6:27 AM in So many problems...would be grateful for any helpIt seems as though the system has a leak. Have your head-scratcher overfill the boiler, and look for drips over a few hours. Examine all the returns, and supplies for water or steam leak.
Once you have a tight system, then concentrate on its balance. I suspect your pressure is too high, and that the spitting vents are the result of that, and weak main venting.
Get a copy of the lost art of steam heating from the shop here and read it with your serviceman to see how to make things better.--NBC
@ March 1, 2014 11:04 AM in Heating-Cooling Loss and GainCould it be done by a separate person from the installer?
Obviously a radiator survey should be done for steam systems.--NBC
@ March 1, 2014 11:03 AM in Too hot upstairs after conversion to gas-fired steam boilerWhat is the air temperature in the basement now?
I had trouble opening the pictures on my iPad, but it looks as though there are several dry returns going down to the wet return, and if so, then each should have a main vent.
I also thought I saw a bull headed tee, which can have some inequality in its distribution.
Putting main vents on wherever they should be will improve the imbalance.--NBC
@ March 1, 2014 10:53 AM in Switching from Oil to GasLochinvar makes the Solution, which has reset capabilities, with a stage burner, although not outside combustion air. It would be a lot lighter than a cast iron boiler coming down any stairs.
Did any of the plumbers do a heat loss?
If not, go to SlantFin.com, and download their easy to use program.--NBC
@ March 1, 2014 10:45 AM in Continuing water hammer issuesUsing 2 risers might be better, and cheaper, because you may use 2 inch pipe instead of 3 inch.
Just make sure they are both on the other side of the supply/header connection from the equalizer.--NBC
@ March 1, 2014 10:39 AM in Help me ballance my 1 pipe steam Please!Choose a real steam expert, and go with his choice., after he has measured your radiators, to find the correct size for the new boiler, and who may know how to open the instruction manual for the boiler installation!
I would still check your pressure and venting, as one of the causes of non-closing vents is high pressure. Do you know when the pigtail may have been cleaned out last? Often, the results of pipe insulation are an increase in pressure.--NBC
@ March 1, 2014 7:56 AM in Help me ballance my 1 pipe steam Please!Switching to gas would undoubtably save on fuel costs, but unfortunately your Burnham is probably not approved (by Burnham) for use with a gas burner.
Any new boiler installation is better left to the spring.
Try to see if all of your radiators on a given floor are getting steam at the same time. If not, then check your pressure, as lack of maintenance may have allowed the pressuretrol to become inoperative, and clogged up. Are those main vents still working as well as they did years ago. They may need a good wash, and soak with vinegar.--NBC