Heating Help

I agree

@ November 20, 2010 7:25 PM in New Knight design

There is as reason why they have sold something like 60,000+ units since the Knight came out. They listen, and they are practical too.
I wired one up, one of the first I've ever wired (instsalled a few but never wired them) for temporary heat the other day. I had to run 2 wires to the primary and secondary pumps, and jumper the thermostat connection, and voila, she was good to go. I was actually really impressed with how cleanly layed out and organized the connections for wiring were in the boiler cabinet. The controller is excellent and easy to work with. I also like a lot of the features the controller offers. I think other manufacturers should really pay attention to the detail Lochinvar puts in their boiler designs. They do a great job overall and I mean that.

A few more Q's about the Knight

@ November 20, 2010 7:16 PM in New Knight design

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions Aemeeich.
I did some digging on the Lochinvar website and found their brochure.
A few more questions about the new Lochinvar Knight
1) What type of stainless steel is the heat exchanger made out of it? I presume it's 439 ? Also, I'd be interested in knowing the wall thickness of the stainless for the heat exchanger, particularly in for the tubes. I presume it would be beefier than the 0.7-0.8 mm walls of the Giannoni due to the structure of the fire tubes and mass of water but I could be wrong.
2) They have a feature on the new knight control that they revamped for 2010 that when the screen background on their digital controller went yellow and which means maintenance is required (set up by you), you could set it up to display your company name and phone number to call for maintenance for the home owner to see.  For those who don't know, when the screen has a blue backround, everything is good, when the screen goes red, that means the boiler is in lockout mode and there is a problem. Someone questioned Lochinvar why they didn't allow the controller to display your company name and phone number when the boiler goes into Lockout.  Lochinvar and the guy Kevin who gave us our Lochinvar presentation in September said "douh, great idea," so I'm curious if they changed this in the new controller for the Lochinvar WHN models.  Anyone know? (I know it's not listed on their brochure however, but I'd hope this would be an upcoming change).

Firing Rates & Ratios

@ November 20, 2010 3:50 PM in New Knight design

Hey  Tim,
From what you know or understand (or perhaps some manufacturers can chime in) - when the mod-con manufacturers go to certification, do they "protest" these old standards and limitations on firing ratios? Have they? Has anyone performed test data showing they can easily do more than 5 to 1, documented it, and sent it in? Are manufacturers actively pushing to have this changed? Do the people who make this standard, of which it gets updated every few years or so, know this? Do they understand it's importance?
Also, does the EPA know that such limitations do affect efficiency of the appliances due to potential short cycling, especially if they are slightly oversized which may happen in a lot of cases where someone needs the DHW output from an indirect?
Thanks,
Scott

Viessmann

@ November 20, 2010 9:28 AM in New Knight design

EXCEPT that they don't have a boiler with a low firing rate i.e. sub 20,000 BTUH, and we'd like to see some boilers that at least make a 5 to 1 firing ratio. The fact that the minimum firing rate increased from 25,000 to 31,000 BTUH on their smallest boiler in my opinion was a step back.  Yes, yes, Viessmann will tell you that the low firing rates they can't maintain a good flame or something along those lines, but you'd think a technology such as Lamda would enhance this potential. 
Also, the savings from this new burner technology might be negated in comparison to a similar boiler that has better modulation ratios with respect to short cycling, wear and tear on ignition components, etc.

Noticed a few things

@ November 19, 2010 11:39 PM in New Knight design

Back on topic here - I noticed on the press release on their website it says there are now 7 models for their wall mounts with this new heat exchanger, from 55,000 to 399,000 input.
So this means the small boiler has been bumped up from a max 50,000 BTUH input to 55,000 BTUH input, with 5 to 1 I'm assuming it has a 11,000 BTUH low fire. I wonder why they added the extra 5000 BTUH? And how much have the other boilers inputs changed from their current?
Also, what are the 2 new models? The old/current line up is 50, 80, 105, 150, and 210. That's 5 models. I presume the new models will be around the same BTUH, and the 2 new models are larger than the existing line. There is obviously a 399 model, and I presume a 285ish model maybe? Any info on this?
Also, I noticed in the picture that the removeable front boiler cover is a different design than the current set up, presumably to access components for either installation, or service, or both. The heat exchanger is up and down due to being down firing now. I'm not sure which model is pictured on the website, but how much variation will there be in physical boiler size? I like the 29 1/2" height accross the board on the current line up, however will the heights of these boilers now change due to a longer "can" (I assume anyways) for the larger sizes?  Also, the boiler pictured, to me appears as though it's already longer/taller than the existing boilers, am I right?

TS-80

@ November 18, 2010 9:17 AM in New Knight design

Gord,
The new TS-80 has a 5 to 1
I found the instruction manual here: http://www.nythermal.com/uploads/file/Trinity%20Ts80%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Manual%20V%202010-06-15.pdf
and a few pages in it lists 16,000 to 80,000.

NY Thermal modulation ratios

@ November 18, 2010 12:48 AM in New Knight design

Here is the NY Thermal data on their mod-cons

BTU Input x 1000
15-100
25-150
25-200
75-399
Boiler Modulation Ratio (respectively)
6.6:1
6:1
8:1
5.3:1

IBC

@ November 18, 2010 12:35 AM in New Knight design

I am just relaying information based on what I have been told, but if you check the IBC data, it clearly states it's approvals which were based on a 2000 verson of certification or something like that if I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps it was the person who did the certification at the time and their interpretation of the rules. Perhaps it's got something to do with the fact that IBC has been out just as long as anyone in the mod-con market (I believe they started up in 94) and they had their 15-150 certified I believe somewhere in the 2001-2003 range (I know 2003 or earlier as I serviced 2 of these boilers of that era last year).
I'd really be interested in hearing how NY Thermal has more than 5 to 1 as well.
There is no 2 stage regulation last I checked, just one zero governor gas regulator like pretty much every other mod-con out there.

EDIT Just read the IBC Instruction manual - the 15-150 was cetified to CSA 4.9-2000 / ANSI Z21 13-2000

NOT 2 burners.

@ November 16, 2010 11:30 PM in New Knight design

NO, the IBC does NOT have 2 burners. The IBC got away with 10 to 1 on their 15-150 by questioning what "normal" meant in the "A boiler can only fire down to 20% of it's specified normal firing rate," when they had their boler certified. Whomever made the final certification must have agreed with them when they questioned it.
Keep in mind that the IBC is not the only boiler on the market with more than 5 to 1. The NY Thermal/Giannoni mod-cons have modulation rates that exceed 5 to 1 as well. In the 6-8 to 1 range if memory serves - check their website.

The 100 is a bit plain jane....

@ November 14, 2010 11:54 PM in mod/con boiler choices (the intangibles)

The only thing going against a stainless buffer tank on the Vitodens WB1B 100 is the schematics they require based on their Versatronik controller they offer. They have a very specific flow rate for the 100 requiring between 1.7 GPM (minium roughly to trigger the boilers flow switch) up to I believe it's 6.2 or 6.6 GPM (off of the top of my head) max flow rate for the boiler's heat exchanger.  To use a buffer tank (i.e. heat flow, or the new Lochinvar stainless buffer tanks) for the 3 pump schematic (as a big low loss header) they require would mean when there is a call for indirect heat  you'd be heating an entire buffer tank up to 172 degrees (which is the preset non adjustable temperature that this boiler heats up to when it is in DHW mode). You'll probably be better off by adding mass on the return as a flow through on the return of the secondary loop for the heating by pumping the return water into the top of the tank and come out the bottom. You could buy a steel electric hot water tank for this to save money and just not hook up the power obviously. The stratification of the tank would ensure that the coldest water always comes out the return and back into the primary loop or low loss header which would help reduce short cycling, as well as act as a natural dirt seperator that you could clean out annually or less.
The other alternative is if you go into the Versatronik schematics you could pick the 2 pump option where it has one pump for the heating circuit and one pump for the indirect, effectively pumping through the boiler for the indirect, and then buy a Grundfos Alpha and just plug it in externally/independantly of the boiler/versatronik controller (for the air handler secondary loop) which means it would be on all the time but would only pump when a zone valve opens (you could unplug it in the summer to save 5 watts an hour usage). Pump directly thorugh the boiler for the indirect (one pump) and for the heating you could use a one of the stainless buffer tanks mentioned above as a big low loss header to reduce short cycling and have a 2 pump set up with one pump not tied into the boiler/versatronik control as I just mentioned.
As far as IBC goes - I know the actual prices of each boiler, and I can tell you that by the time you outfit the Vitodens 100 with all the external accessories that would put it anywhere near the IBC's built in control, plus the extra cost of a stainless buffer tank to mitigate for short cycling due to the lack of low fire modulation, you'll be significantly more with the Vitodens 100. And that's not factoring in the deep modulation of the 150 (15,000 BTUH low fire) or the 150,000 BTUH high fire rate (read: If you got 10 people staying at the house, with an 80 gallon tank you should never run out of hot water with this set up).  IBC has a strong presence in Alberta, and according to their president they actually have I believe it's 4 of their 45-225's heating a pool heat exchanger in Edmonton and apparently they were purposely undersized, so they run pretty much flat out for nearly 8000 hours a year and get their heat exchangers cleaned twice in that time.

wall mount only.

@ November 14, 2010 10:24 AM in New Knight design

This is supposed to be for their wall mounts only for now. From what I have heard, they will still be using Giannoni HXs for their floor mount boilers.  I very much doubt that we will see anything over 399,000 for a wall mount in the near future. But you never know I guess....

Vitodens 100 vs 200

@ November 14, 2010 1:17 AM in mod/con boiler choices (the intangibles)

46,778 BTUH heat loss is small for Northern Alberta. You must have a relatively small house (2 small-ish floors or one big rancher?), I'm guessing in the 1500 to 2500 sq. foot range? Because in Vancouver that's the heat loss for a 2500-3000 sq. foot house (19 F design temp) with newer windows with say average insulation (R12-14 in the walls - R28-ish in the attic, etc.). Mind you guys are probably R-20 PLUS in the walls and R40 plus in the attic I would imagine.
If you have an existing indirect DHW tank that you're confident will go the distance (stainless steel) then you're probably set. 80 Gallons should be plenty for the bathrooms & people you mentioned and if it ends up being an issue you can set the tank at 140, mix it down to 120 or less and set the aquastat or controller to be a little more aggressive (i.e. a smaller differential, if possible). I WAS going to suggest considering going with the Vitodens 100 and a Vitocell stainless tank (best tank on the market quality wise in my opinion) versus a Vitodens 200 and a cheaper tank if budget was a concern but read on.
When I was at some Viessmann training in Langley in September, they told us that in Canada, they still have a decent stock of the previous Vitodens 200 WB2A models in the smaller sizes (24 and 32 KW). They will NOT sell the WB2B in similar sizes until the WB2A's are sold (that's what they have told us). They are selling the larger WB2B's however as they now carry 80 and 105 KW's which weren't availble in the WB2A. I know a few guys who have installed lots of these in smaller commercial projects to date. So you're either going to have to wait until the WB2B's come out after the WB2A's are sold out, or go with a Vitodens 100 WB1B (or a WB2A).
Personally, with your heat loss, the WB1B in both sizes is a little on the large side relative to your heat loss; they have a 37,000 BTUH minimum firing rate (input) which at 95% efficiency is around 35,000 BTUH output-ish give or take depending on return temps to the boiler. If you've ever checked out a temperature graph of Edmonton, you'll note that while it does get quite cold where you live, the actual time Edmonton spends near design temperatures is relatively small hours wise in the grand scheme of your entire heating season. This means that your boiler might see some short cycling when it is in heating mode which puts additional wear and tear on heating components. This is where you might want to consider a WB2B which has a slightly reduced minimum firing rate (about 31,000 BTUH input) which should help reduce short cycling slightly. Or consider a WB2A which has a lower minimum firing rate (25,000 input) which should further reduce short cycling (OR consider a Vitodens 100 with a small-ish buffer tank). The Vitodens 100 boiler IS a fairly popular boiler for it's price point and simplicity with quality built in but Viessmann knows that in Vancouver and more moderate climates and for places with smaller heat losses, there are guys who want a smaller Vitodens 100, and there are guys also calling for a larger Vitodens 100 as well in colder climates or for larger applications as well.
I like that you have oversized your fan coils as that gives you the oppurtunity to significantly lower the water temps; this lends itself to nice long (or longer) burning times with a lower air & water temps for increased efficiency; further reinforcing the need for a smaller lower firing rate boiler or a buffer tank (my opinion). 
The only other alternative is an IBC 15-150. This boiler would rock for your application. But some people are set on Viessmann which is fine.

Electrical consumption

@ November 13, 2010 8:41 PM in New Knight design

Anyone know what type of stainless steel it is made out of it? I'm guessing it's either 316 L or 439.
This is not the first boiler manufacturer of mod-cons who has switched to a fire tube lately as I pointed out in another thread recently (or appears to be anyways). After spending some time thinking about it, I'm starting to become a little more interested in the fire tube style just to see how it performs. The mass, and low head loss ARE attractive for various reasons, and what a lot of guys seem to forget is fuel usage and efficiency is one thing, but there's all the little things such as electrical consumption of pumps and accessories that play a part on top of added associated piping. Having a heat exchanger that you can potentially "pump through" with less pump and less pump power without the added cost of potential secondary loops in some cases can signifcantly reduce complexity associated with design, the need for low loss headers or P/S piping, etc.
I do agree that the Knight is defiantely one of the best controlled user/installer friendly platforms on the market today as well. I just wasn't much of a fan of the Giannoni.  They are also pushing 96% without some type of Lamda pro on this set up.

First things first....

@ November 13, 2010 8:32 PM in mod/con boiler choices (the intangibles)

1) I'd really like to know what your heat loss is on design day.
2) Also, how many bathrooms (tubs & showers is what I'm looking at) and people in your house that use those bathrooms, are in the house?
3) How long do you plan on living in the house?
4) You call yourself a canuck - where in Canada do you live?
5) What type of heat emitter(s) do you have?

Thermolec

@ November 11, 2010 11:12 AM in Electric boilers

I'm partial to the thermolec just because I've installed a few in the past. You can also get them in stainless steel (heat exchanger) which should contribute to lasting longer. They also have a built in outdoor reset and a pump relay (you only really need one pump due to the low loss heat exchanger). The thing I love about electric boilers is they are about as simple as it gets for controls, plus they cost next to nothing (in the grand scheme of hydronic heating equipment). The cost to run them on the other hand.....

Phoned the local Lochinvar Rep today

@ November 9, 2010 10:13 PM in New Knight design

I phoned the local Lochinvar Rep today about this and he had no knowledge of it (and he's generally quite honest and upfront with me). If it's true, it must be quite new.

Fire Tube

@ November 9, 2010 10:10 PM in IBC Technologies VFC series boiler

IBC's 15-150 and 45-225 are "water tube" (coil designs) as I described above. It appears after my brief visit today IBC's direction for their newer boilers starting with their new 80-399 is moving towards fire tube heat exchanger designs very similar to the Triangle Tube. This would explain the low head loss I mentioned above. This might also explainy why they have switched to 439 Ti SS for their 80-399 heat exchanger.  If you look at the parts break down in the 80-399 instruction manual on their website, you'll notice it has a short fat burner compared to the heat exchanger, which again points to a fire tube higher mass type of boiler like the Triangle Tube.

Already?

@ November 9, 2010 1:07 AM in New Knight design

So you're telling us that Lochinvar has a new fire tube heat exchanger for their Knight wall mounts - I'm assuming if this is the case its an in house design?

New 80-399

@ November 7, 2010 10:17 PM in IBC Technologies VFC series boiler

This is the new spec sheet for their new Boiler the 80-399: http://www.ibcboiler.com/PDF/SL_80-399_specs.pdf
This boiler shares a few parts with it's little brothers (noteably the controller) but it's mainly a ground up new design. I saw this unit just before it came out in person at the IBC head office in May of this past year and they use 439 Ti stainless steel instead of 316 Ti like on the smaller boilers.
The thing I'd like to point out on their spec sheet is the extremely low head loss of their heat exchanger at fairly high flow rates. 6 feet of head at 45 gallons per minute? It really makes me question if they have a significantly different design compared to their smaller boilers. The heat exchanger is still down firing I noticed from my glance at the internals, and the exchanger itself is shaped in a tapered "can" instead of a straight up and down "can" like their smaller boilers. I'm gonna have to maybe stop off at IBC in the next few days if I have time and ask some questions!

Oh yeah - a rumour for you guys - last I heard they are working on smaller boilers.

IBC parts

@ November 7, 2010 10:08 PM in IBC Technologies VFC series boiler

I can tell you from expierience that most of the main replaceable/serviceable parts you will need to service the 15-150 and the 45-225 can be carried in your standard stanley organizer (deep, yellow bin version). I usually would carry a few igniters, some extra screws in case I lost them by accident, a burner coupler plus extra burner & fan coupler gaskets, an extra site glass/view port for the heat exchanger (just in case), etc, etc.  It's a pretty straight forward unit.
The Controller's digital display is one of the best you can get in my opinion (which they've had on their boiler since 2002-2003 if I'm not mistaken?) The Lochinvar Knights new controller/display has a few extra features/options (e.g. ramp delay, etc.) that I'd like to see on the IBC, but they're comparable, only the IBC has more rows on the display so you can see more information and the IBC's is a bit more straight forward me thinks. All the wiring terminals on the control board are very user friendly and you don't need any external pump relay or pump module controllers (or to build your own). They have 3 temperature/load switching built in so the control box can control 3 secondary pumps (loads) plus the 1 primary pump. This is slightly different than the (in my opinion) confusing way Lochinvar decided to do it with their revamped controller with 3 temperatures where the guy at the Lochinvar training school I went to couldn't really explain it (just being honest) in a way that everyone in the audience could understand and then IBC's control came up as an internal group discussion.  The thing that is nice about this boiler? The tappings that you screw your gas line into - they are SOLID. The supply & return for the hydronics - SOLID.

Not Giannoni.

@ November 7, 2010 2:36 PM in IBC Technologies VFC series boiler

The IBC VFC Boiler is NOT a Giannoni design. It is their own design. They have a 316 Ti (same material Viessmann uses) heat exchanger that is down firing with 3 rows worth of coils as opposed to 1 row worth of coils (e.g. Viessmann, Giannoni). If I'm not mistaken, the outside coil/water travels up on the outside most row, then the water gets pushed down the middle/next most inside row, and then up the inside row closed to the burner and out. The supply & return come in/out on the right side of the boiler which makes for a nice primary/secondary set up worth of piping. The Burner is a cylinder burner that hangs upside down (as opposed to horizontal like Viessman/Giannoni) and it projects it's heat outward (358 degrees like most cylinder burners) at the inner most row of coils. The condensate/flue gas (assuming the return temp is low enough) then gets pushed between/through the coils and out the bottom. The condensate  "plinkos" it's way through the rows of coils towards the bottom outlet where it drains down through an externally installed (in the vent piping) condensate trap (supplied with the boiler).
The IBC's heat exchanger is sort of a similar concept in being down firing/self cleaning as the TT, but it's got coils instead of fire tubes like the TT (so it's a "water tube") if it's fair to say. This heat exchanger is also a VERY large heat exchanger (95 pounds for the heat exchanger alone) compared to the competition for a given BTUH rate/range so it is able to soak up a lot of heat both at lower and upper firing rates of it's BTUH rating. I can tell you from expierience I have seen this exact pheonomenon using a flue gas analyzer (and different flue gas analyzers too) on different boilers with virtually the exact same efficiency at the same return temps at both max and min firing rates. In fact the last IBC I commissioned several weeks ago it was pushing 98.7-99.3% steady combustion efficiency with about 75 degree return temps at both high and low fire.  The IBC's 15-150 and 45-225 both use the exact same heat exchanger and the same burner. The only difference is the fan (larger on the 45-225 obviously). The Integrated control, and everything else is pretty much the exact same. The Venting they have is extremely flexible and there aren't any issues with the potential for chlorides to leech back on the heat exchanger if you decide to use PVC/CPVC.
The IBC 15-150's 10 to 1 firing rate IS a pheonomenon amongst the industry as you typically don't see turn downs that large until you get into industrial burners. I can tell you that from what I've been told that this firing rate was certified when IBC apparently questioned the certification rule that states a 5 to 1 turn down max of normal firing rate by questioning what "normal" meant. This allowed them to get to 10 to 1 (when they went to certify the 45-225 later, they weren't allowed more than a 5 to 1). I have personally serviced at least two 6-7 year old 15-150's that were installed in 2003-2004 that were in great shape and had not been touched up until that point. The heat exchangers needed cleaning but they weren't too bad.

They just recently came out with a big brother to their other boilers, the SL 80-399.
I don't want to sound like a greasy salesman here, that's not my intent - the above are FACTS about this boiler.  

Turbulence

@ October 30, 2010 2:27 PM in Location of microbubble resorber relative to circulator

I could be wrong, but I think in Siggy's book it recommends a minimum of 12x pipe diameters of straight pipe between a circulator and an air seperator. The bottom line is put a little bit of distance between a circ and air seperator.
Now typically in a mod-con system you'll have your circulator pumping into the boiler (in most cases). In this case I'd pipe my feed valve, expansion tank, etc. into the suction side of the circulator, and put the air seperator on the outlet of the boiler (supply/hottest water). In this case, most of the pumps head has been dissipated by the heat exchanger of the mod-con, and the temperature is highest, so the air seperator will work admirably in this location.
On a conventional boiler, you typically want your air seperator on your supply side, with your feed valve/expansion tank tied directly into the air seperator if it has a tapping (most do) and then your pump with some distance (see above) between your air seperator and your pump for turbulence reasons (to protect the impellar from cavitation). Now will butting your suction of your circ right up to an air seperator kill it prematurely - in theory, yes, but in practice I'm sure they last longer then you would think. But again it's a recommended practice by many guru's/designers  in the industry.

The bottom line is the positioning of your air seperator, point of no pressure change (feed valve/expansion tank connection) and pump are critical in relation to each other with respect to the removal of air in a hydronic system. Put them in the proper location and they'll work admirably without issue. Put them in the wrong location and you could be pulling air into the system and causing all sorts of problems.