Heating Help

RRP

@ May 22, 2012 4:15 PM in stripping (blasting?) and repainting radiators

Don't forget your RRP obligations. I would have a paper trail making him also responsible for compliance in his methods of handling and preparation. You are probably responsible for testing painted rads before you remove and handle them then disclose those test results to him.
Any form of paint or coating will act as insulation and reduce the effectiveness of a rad. Consider using a flat black matte finish where possible. Also, radiator covers are a bit of an oxymoron.

CO alarms

@ May 20, 2012 10:00 AM in Carbon Monoxide: A Step Backwards

Pennsylvania is set to adopt their version of mandatory UL listed CO alarms. The bill is sitting in appropriations but will pass. It requires annual inspection by.................home inspectors! In addition, rental units will be required to be inspected when tenants leave. I tried to get heard but was shut out.
There is legislation floating out there in Congress attempting to outlaw unlisted CO 'alarms'. This is a stinky move by the big alarm mfrs. in bed with the fire marshals and fire depts. Colllectively, they want to sell a bunch of cheap POS units so they can rest on their laurels as being caring and responsible. This also ensures less CO responses for those fire depts already understaffed.
To me one of the key shortcomings of a UL listed CO alarm is the premise that in order for it to sound, it waits until you have approximately 10% CoHb then supposedly alerts just in time to wake you and save your life. This means in order for it to work, you already must have CO poisoning! Gee, thanks...BTW, you're looking at CO poisoning for at least 4hrs on the low end. This is nuts! This doesn't even address the reliability issue which has been and still is a problem with UL listed junk.
The mortality and morbidity rates are grossly inaccurate because of the lack of a reliable, accurate reporting system. We know the true exposure rates are far higher and will get much worse as time goes on.

preventative medicine

@ May 6, 2012 9:51 AM in What they do in England

When I am finished with either inspecting an installation or working on one, I always run my hands around every pipe joint to count the screws and feel for how intact the pipe and joints are. I grasp the pipe and giggle it to ensure it is properly connected and supported. I do a lot of inspecting work and have screwed loose pipes on hundreds of installations at no charge simply because it was the right thing to do. It is sad how rampant it is that supposedly 'professionals' are willing to pack their tools and walk off a job leaving the occupants with disconnected pipes, unsecured pipes or never looked into the chimney AS REQUIRED BY CODE to see if it was blocked, collapsed or otherwise unsuitable. Everyone focuses on the things that won't kill you and neglect the one thing that will--improper venting.

insurance

@ March 6, 2012 8:16 AM in Is this vent pipe installed incorrectly and the source of my problems?

Call your insurance carrier. You'd be surprised at what they will cover. You could contact a PA and have them go to bat for you.
I suggest you read up at buildingscience.com  Dr. Joe Lstiburek has a lot of free download articles on the subject and you'll be shocked at this views on attic ventilation.
You could hire a contractor who is BPI certified who can conduct a blower door test with  infrared thermography, which will show you the extent of the moisture intrusion and any air bypasses. For sampling, you'd need an industrial hygienist and they ain't cheap, which is why I suggested the insurance route.
You have multiple issues here and probably multiple sources of moisture. For instance, that fart fan with the plastic slinky vent may have become torn or disconnected and could discharge/ leak moisture into the attic or its discharge may not be making it outside. The exhaust fan probably is not sealed to the bathroom ceiling allowing moisture migration around it. Those boxes leak like a sieve on a good day anyway. A lot of that moisture appears to be coming up from the roof deck/ flashing. You can have your pvc vent tested by a plumber with inflatable test balls to see if the joints are intact but I doubt it is discharging sufficient moisture to get entrained back into the attic.
HTH

chimney venting

@ February 14, 2012 10:18 AM in Chimney liner sizing problem

All chimneys must be suitable for the class of service. All chimneys must be lined. Therefore, your original setup was non-code compliant. According to the sizing tables in the gas codes, the 10x10 was undersized for this load.
Since you cannot common vent both appliances into this chimney, you have two options:
Power vent or get rid of the water heater and replace it with an indirect tank. I would opt for the second with a single properly sized listed liner. To power vent, you have two methods: push it out or suck it out. Sucking it out with the fan on the building's exterior allows you to use conventional vent connector and a listed liner. Yes, you would still need the liner. If the fan was at the appliance, the venting must be listed for positive vent pressure, meaning listed to UL 1738. This is the AL29-4c stainless steel with gaskets. You have to verify your termination meets all the code requirements and is not below snow level. Either type of fan will require a pressure proving switch of some sort. I recommend you have a pro perform a level II inspection of the chimney to ascertain its suitability even if relined before going farther. HTH,

sudden occurrenece loss

@ February 13, 2012 9:10 AM in Failed Furnace installer blames propane supply

This is waaaay out of hand here. This is a "sudden occurrence loss", which means it should have been turned over to the homeowner's insurance company on day one. They would hire another HVAC contractor to replace the venting and unit then, with the assistance of the investigating engineering firm, take the old unit into custody. The interested parties would all have to be identified and notified as quickly as possible so they could have a representative present at the Tear Out/ Re-Install and securing of the old unit and pipe. The homeowner gets heat back on same day with an entirely new unit.
The engineering firm conducts their investigation into the cause and origin and reports to the insurance carrier who, in turn, subrogates to the likely suspect. They negotiate a settlement-done.
Now, part of your problem does sound like an issue with inadequate fuel delivery. The problem manifested during a cold spell with two probably undersized tanks.This refers to the 'vaporization rate' of those tanks. As it gets colder and the liquid phase fuel level drops, those tanks become unable to vaporize fuel fast enough for he load. Two undersized vertical DOT cylinders were recently refueled waay too quickly. This should have been a red flag. Each 100lb cylinder holds roughly 2million BTUs available. That's a lot. So, unless all the upstairs windows were left open, you need to look at the firing rate of the unit and correlate the temps over that period to see if the fuel consumed correlates to the fuel it should have required.
I highly recommend using buried ASME containers in northern climates. Also, were is the medium pressure regulator? Is it at the tanks or close to the appliance? What is the diameter and run of the low pressure gas line from the MP reg to the appliance. Any other loads? Any kinks?
You can clock an LP system with a standard NG meter then multiply the result by a factor provided by the meter mfr., usually around 0.63
If someone removed the orifices that were in place during the incident, this constitutes a 'spoliation' of evidence. This means you lose your arguement to defend yourself by masking the evidence. Anytime there is an incident, you must play fair and allow all the interested parties and equal chance to inspect  the evidence. Tampering and spoliation can result in shooting yourself in the foot.
If those PVC pipes saw high temps, you could have pyrolysis of nearby combustibles such as any holes bored the pipes pass through. This case needs professional investigation.

leaks

@ January 26, 2012 7:50 AM in LP gas valve

Gas cocks are rate either 3 or 5 psi depending upon mfr. However, you NEVER test at pressures over 14 wci past a gas cock with an appliance connected. Gas combination valves are allowed trace gas leakage by ANSI of 200cc/hr through the seals of the valve and 235cc/hr through the main operator leaking to the burner both at 3/4psi or 21 wci. You can check to see if gas is still leaking out of the main operator or the regulator vent when the burner is shut off and you're leak testing. Has anyone tested the vent on the second stage regulator to see if it is 'leaking' constantly. If so, you have a blown diaphragm. Note that lower pressure leak tests are more accurate than high pressure tests.A water manometer or bubble meter is what is used in the lab. Also check your hoses and connections on your manometer. Use a commercial soap soln. such as Big Blu with know characteristics and give it time.

VF field conversions?

@ January 18, 2012 8:19 PM in from propane to natural gas?

Ventfree gas appliances are NOT field convertible. That would void the warranty and listing. You must order a separate appliance set up by the factory for the alternative fuel.

good money after bad

@ January 14, 2012 3:53 PM in Converting antique oil furnace to gas

Why throw good money after bad? I can appreciate being stylish keeping certain charming artifacts in old homes but here you're talking about a huge waste of energy not to mention the safety concerns of a dinosaur heater. Do your houseguests and the world a favor; replace that beast with a modern effiicient unit with new sealed ductwork after proper load and duct calcs then donate that thing to your local votech school if it has never been wrapped in asbestos.

switch doing its job

@ January 12, 2012 10:46 AM in Gas boiler pilot goes out intermittently

The spill switch is doing its job telling you there is a venting problem. Have a pro pull the pipe, inspect the chimney and correct any issues. That includes depressurization of the Combustion Appliance Zone. Police the house for open windows upstairs, open attic access etc. have the pro measure your CAZ and provide makeup air as needed to maintain a slightly positive CAZ WRT outdoors and the adjoing space.
Only once you have eliminated those causes would I even look at the equipment because that's usually where the problem lies. Never leave a safety control bypassed. If you can't run it without the jumper then that house is uninhabitale so move out until corrected. Get yourself a low level CO monitor or two.

more trap erratta

@ January 11, 2012 3:53 PM in No Drip legs allowed???

John M., do your local AHJs make you use a ground union on CSST connections? I know there is debate as to whether or not they should be allowed in lieu of a union but in a case like this where you aren't even within 6ft of the applinace, it is unecessary and just another major source of leaks, historically speaking.
No bonding clamp on the steel pipe at the CSST connection.
I hope that old ground key shutoff in the first pic was replaced.
Did anyone calculate the pipe sizing? Test inlet pressure under full load? Many vented logs are rated 60mbh+ at 6wci inlet. This may be undersized/ low pressure.  
I have removed all sorts of crap from traps: oils, water, metal shavings, rust, Teflon tape threads, rocks, copper sulphide black flakes, etc.. The bottom line is, the codes and all mfrs require them. If there is an Ooops! and the cause is determined to be foreign material that entered the valve vestibule and you removed or deliberately did not install a trap or failed to warn the owner a trap is required by code and mfr. then you are liable-period.

gas piping to generator

@ December 31, 2011 10:14 AM in Will I need dedicated NG gas pipe for portable generator ??

Your first consideration in location. Place the unit far enough from any occupied buildings. Check with your codes and standards then double that distance. You don't want carbon monoxide entering buildings and most people grossly underestimate how far away they need to be. That far of a gas run will probably need a 2 psi system. Talk to your utility about installing 2psi at the meter. One leg can branch off into the back yard where a second medium pressure regulator can reduce the pressure to the appliance's rated inlet pressure. Be sure to plan on a sediment trap and shutoff upstream of the regulator, another trap downstream, and clearance from your regulator vent 3ft from any source of ignition. That means you cannot mount the reg. against the generator unless you route a vent line away from the unit and attach a special vent screen on the discharge.
The house will then also need a medium pressure regulator with the upstream shutoff and traps. Then, you should have adequate gas under full load. Once installed measure your inlet pressures under full load and perform lockup test for MP regulators. Test for gas leaks and perform combustion analysis on all appliances and you're done!

codes and stds

@ December 27, 2011 8:54 AM in Maxtrol without a line vent

LOL. Tim, I've followed you for years and I'm a big fan. Wish I could get up to take some of your courses as I have heard nothing but high praise.
Great idea making them carry the code books on site! I love it. In Delaware, you have to walk in with your code books to get licensed or buy them on the spot. Most techs i know do not own a copy. If you are under the IRC, just join the ICC for $100 and get one code for free. I can get the $125 IRC for 100 plus a membership. You must not have check the ANSI prices lately as most are upwards $1K. I have a few plus all the UL listings for venting and most hearth products but I'm on the UL STP so I get those updates for free.
You could spend a fortune buying every code and std. you are held to and they get revised every 3 yrs or so. Yes, everyone waiting for Spring 2012 for a bunch of new code books. BTW, I prefer the Code Commentaries whenever available. Well worth it. Also, a side benefit of joining NFPA and ICC that pays for itself is getting direct rulings and opinions from guys like Ted Lemoff to help resolves disputes.

chimney relining

@ December 27, 2011 8:47 AM in variable speed and chimney liner

A chimney must be suitable for the class of service. When you make a change to the type or efficiency, you should have a Level II inspection per NFPA 211, which will determine if relining or repairs are indicated. This will influence the choices of types of equipment.
I don't know where you get this x2 limit on sizing as both gas codes allow x7. I agree it performs better when properly sized but I'm not aware of any code limiting at x2. As for sizing the liners, you need to consider many variables. First of all, corrugated liners are de-rated 20% off the top plus another 20% for offsets--the first 90 at the base is baked in. Also, check the sizing on your vent connector because 40mbh input units with less than 3 feet of vertical rise require a 4" connector-not 3". If the WH is to be orphanned then yes it should be relined. However, while both B-vent and aluminum are approved and listed for CAT I venting, both are poor choices. The B-vent is only warrantied for a max of 25yrs for the best brands and one is only 1 yr. Same for alum. liners. You cannot inspect all those joints in the B-vent to see how it is holding up and I've seen joints disconnect in chimneys. Aluminum is too fragile. The Ul 1777 listing was softened last yr against my vote to where it only has to withstand a 100lb dead load vertically and no brush test. I've seen a lot of aluminun liners crushed and torn apart just from installation. They are junk. Also, they don't last when 80% furnaces are common vented. The caps blow or are torn off easily allowing animals to plug them with nests and those sticks pierce the liner. B-vent is hard to support properly in a chimney.
I recommend only stainless steel with a transferrable lifetime warranty, in either 316Ti or AL29-4c alloys installed to the listing.
There is only one liner listed for positive vent pressure but no CAT III or IV appliances can be common vented so separate vents for each and they should be two piped unless using a co-axial direct vent system. Regardless, install to the listing then test performance with combustion analysis, check for leaks and install low level CO monitors.

NFPA stds. online

@ December 26, 2011 9:14 AM in Maxtrol without a line vent

Tim, you can access any of the NFPA stds.onlinehttp://www.nfpa.org/onlinepreview/online_preview_document.asp?id=5412# for free here:
The requirements for sediment traps are unchanged still in the std. at 9.6.7
Its still in the IFGC but I don't have a link to that yet. Still, any changes in stds are not truly in effect as local law until voted into the law by your state or local agency. Only in the absence of ANY code would a court look to the most appropriate std. I recommend you save your pennies and buy the Commentary for any code or std. if available. That's where you get explanatory material that often clears up questions. For instance, the IFGC Commentary has an illustration showing how running traps are illegal.
HTH

MP regs per the IRC

@ December 24, 2011 9:53 PM in Maxtrol without a line vent

2009 IRC, G2421.2 which is IFGC 410.2 MP regulators
item 5- "A tee fitting with one opening capped or plugged shall be installed between the MP regulator and its upstream shutoff valve. Such tee fitting shall be positioned to allow connection of a pressure measuring instrument  and to serve as a sediment trap"
item 6- "A tee fitting with one opening capped or plugged shall be installed not less than 10 pipe diameters downstream of the MP regulator outlet. Such tee fitting shall be positioned to allow connection of a pressure measuring instrument. "

MP reg

@ December 24, 2011 1:26 PM in Maxtrol without a line vent

The rules in the gas code are found under Medium Pressure regulators and the reg. mfrs listed instructions.
Vented away from source of ignition, yes. Pics don't show but there must be a listed shutoff immediately upstream of any MP regulator. If the diaphragm blew in this reg. the shutoff shown would be of no use. You also must protect the regulator with a sediment trap, which also provides a means of attaching a presure gauge. Then another tee downstream or pressure tap with means to attach manometer. Those traps must be vertically oriented with the gas making a 90 degree turn so gravity catches any condensate or debris. Some jurisdictions require an overpressure device in the event of regulator failure so cross-check against your local ordinances and state fire code.
HTH

installing gas logs

@ December 21, 2011 11:29 AM in Fireplace insert

You must have an NFPA Level II inspection performed on the fireplace and chimney first and any defects corrected to bring the fireplace back as  a "working" woodburning fireplace first. Next, review the mfrs. requirements. The damper must be removed or blocked open per the listing, which is based upon BTU input. Note this is not a minimal opening but really should be wide open. People remember to open dampers when burning wood but not gas. Esp. a problem if it has a remote--no one is going to open a damper then sit down and hit the remote. The listing requires a "minimum permanent net free area" of x amt., plus the damper must be wide open when burning. If ventfree logs, first check your codes because some don't allow them and those that do are VERY restrictive. If you live in a northern climate with reasonable tight home you cannot install them. You must size them to the room and provide makeup air per the code. Also check clearances to combustible mantel. May require a big ugly hood installed at the lintel.
The gas piping is allowed a shutoff remote from the fireplace under rhe IFGC if the shutoff serves only this appliance, is labeled so, and is "readily accessible". Why would you put a shutoff in front where it will get melted? Bring the gas up the ash pit to a listed shutoff then stainless flex connector to the appliance valve. Keep the burner as far back into the firebox as possible. Too far front will spill into the room. After leak test and testing safety pilot, conduct combustion analysis for spillage. Install a low level unlisted CO monitor outside bedrooms. On vented doors, you may want to install glass doors to minimize air movement when not burning but doors must be open fullly when burning. Install a stainless chimney cap with mesh to keep out rain and critters. Failure to do so may result in damages from an animal entering past the open damper and trashing the house.
HTH

gas vs steam drips

@ December 21, 2011 11:17 AM in No Drip legs allowed???

I think you are confusing a "drip leg" installed on a city supplied steam heat system (Coned) vs. a "sediment trap" installed on gas utilization equipment per the fuel gas code. Both the IFGC and NFPA 54 require sediment traps on all gas utilization equipment except ranges, illuminating appliances, clothes dryers, and outdoor grills do Not require traps.
Note that a "drip leg" in gas piping is located right at the point of entry into the building and is designed to capture liquids from 'wet' gas, thus they are not always required. Sediment traps are with the exceptions noted. I hear all the time about the local AHJ not requiring traps at the appliances. The AHJ can NOT minimize the code--he is there to ENFORCE the code---not legislate it. Every mfr I know requires a trap to protect their equipment. If you leave it out and there is an incident with damages where the trap could have prevented the loss, then you would be liable.
Running traps or placing a tee horizontally with a 'trap' pointing down is not recognized by the codes. The gas MUST make a 90 degree turn into the appliance so that gravity can catch any condensate or debris.

I know everyone calls traps on gas "drip legs" or "dirt legs" but you should use the correct lingo, which is used in the codes for a 'sediment trap' at the appliance.  
HTH

b-vent adapter

@ November 28, 2011 1:36 PM in Please, check my work, vent question

All B-vent mfrs. make a draft hood adapter, which is more correctly called a single walled pipe adapter. If you run long screws in through the bottom skirt of a section of B-vent through single walled pipe then into the male aluminum tail of the B-vent, the screw will tend to push the alum. inner section inwards like a daisy petal thus severely restricting the flue while not providing adequate mechanical connection. The Bvent adapter will typically not suffer this problem because you are penetrating two layers of metal and hopefully with sharp point 1/2" screws such as Zip Screws. Do NOT use TEK drill point screws!

moisture content makes a difference

@ November 14, 2011 6:44 PM in Hard Time Calculating R Value of Brick Wall

The industry figures for the R value of common brick are based upon dry bricks-not wet. In reality, bricks are a moisture storage system that CONDUCTS heat until dried out. That is why it is so important to have a proper drainage plane behind brick veneer and why masonry chimneys are such heat sinks---they don't have drainage planes.

root of the problem

@ November 14, 2011 6:39 PM in Lofgren case coming to a head...

Why is it a municipality requires a pressure test of DWV pipe, which probably won't kill the occupants if a joint fails, while they walk right past the HVAC vent that has a high potential to kill yet we are not required to test combustion venting?

We have no national standards for testing the various categories of vents. We have a national std. for inspecting chimneys and vents: NFPA 211, Ch 14, but it is not enforced but in a handful of communities. It is the law in Delaware btw. We do not have consensus on how to conduct such tests as seen by all the in-fighting amongst the weatherization/ energy audit people who all want to be king. Right now we have BPI appointed the sole source yet they offer no mechanism for appeal and there is no mechanism for oversight.
We have no voice with the UL STP for uL2034 and UL2075 for listed CO alarms. Many of the new statutes have language banning the sale or mfg of  unlisted CO monitors, which are far better, far more reliable and protect on the low end. The CO legislation process is ruled by money. You have the big players in the alarm business such as Kidde and First Alert backed by the fire chiefs and fire marshals. Why? Because they are seeing their budgets cut and don't have the money or manpower to inspect CO alarms much less respond to false alarms. The joke is, listed alarms give the false positive alerts-not the unlsited monitors.
The UL STP 103 for venting has tabled efforts to list plastic venting for CAT IV appliances. We looked at the Canadian S636 std and found too many problems. Still, even if the venting is unlisted, it should be tested by qualified pros using calibrated combustion analyzers. We have a long way to go.