Heating Help

Summers here and...

@ June 21, 2009 7:43 PM in Quiet window A/C...Boilerpro

we went to pop in our couple of 6,000 btu window units and it appears one lost its charge over the winter. We bought a GE last year and it rumbles so much you can hear it throughout our house. Any suggestions for quieter units. The one with a low charge is a Fedders and was quite quiet. (Yes, I know, "Why don't you have central air?". It only costs us about 200 a year to cool our big old place with a couple of 1/2 ton window units, so I just can't justify the cost) Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kool Rod and David....

@ June 16, 2009 9:06 AM in Getting a Grip On Our Steam System

I am both flattered and humbled by your remarks. You both are obviously quite knowledgable about steam and the support of fellow steamheads like you folks really brightens my day. I also agree with all you have said. The coop I am working with is definitely "green" oriented and have taken a very sensible approach to applying thier beliefs. Start by improving your current systems so they will function efficiently and properly and then begin to look at other more expensive possibilities (such as solar water heating). The cost to benefit and cost to payback ratio of improving most steam systems is so incredibly good it is shocking how long systems are allowed to continue to operate in a handicapped state. The financial payback times are typically measured in months, not years, for many improvements, and somtimes even in days. Along with these financial gains (and for owners in which this is their primary residence, the gains are essentially tax-free income), the elimination of years of discomfort and system noise are even greater. Chicago is very good place to be nowadays, as it is a leader in the "green" evolution, along with a number of leading manufacturers recently moving into in the area. My alma mater, IIT, has been working toward these goals for decades and now is seeing rapid progess. Loyola has also jumped in with their new building and groups like the coop I have had the pleasure of working with. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Your issues are very common and usually very fixable

@ June 13, 2009 10:37 AM in Getting a Grip On Our Steam System

I am working with a 16 unit Coop with one pipe steam on Chicago's North side right now to get thier system balanced,more efficient and in good working order. Last winter,using data supplied by the board, I went through and calculated the proper btu requirements of the boiler and adjusted boiler input, measured and resized the main vents,found out their thermostatic heating control was going bad and got thier piping insulated. This eliminated nearly all of thier issues of underheating(and some overheating) and smoothed out operation of the boiler. Over 2/3 of the units are now comfortable. This morning I am reviewing temperature and leaking air vents/valves and gurgling/banging issues on a room by room and unit by unit basis so we can address these issues. Addressing these issues should improve boiler/system life and take care of the last overheating issues in some units and save more big dollars on the fuel bills. I expect I will be spending a few days working on thier place sometime in August and we may be able to get to your place then too. I also will be in Aurora in the next week or too, so I'll be well into Chicago then. Give me a call and we can talk. I am in the office today trying to catch up. Boilerpro 1 815 857-2339

That's not me, FYI.....Boilerpro

@ May 19, 2009 9:26 PM in REHAU O2 barrier = squeaky?

I second that.....

@ May 16, 2009 11:02 PM in Choosing HVAC for Energy Star modular home w/gas- suggestions?

eliminating ductwork (or most of it) eliminates a major air leakage path for typical homes. In a fire situation, it also eliminates a path for smoke through a home. Typically stud and joist spaces are used for return air in my area, so with each return air opening in the firerated drywalland the removal of the firestopping at each floor level, the fire integrity of the home is greatly compromised. Boilerpro

Quantum Leap no longer produced

@ April 29, 2009 6:56 PM in How much condensate is produced by 90 % boiler

this was an early attempt at condensing and there are some inherent problems. The cleaning access plate screws come loose every year and need to be tightened (using loctite doesn't help) The plastic clamps used on the hoses don't hold up, the tubing connection of the secondary heat exchanger is too short and can leak very easily and numerous other little nagging problems...most of which could have been caught with proper testing before production. After taking care of these various problems, it has been working well with a regular check on the screws. Not the type of boiler I would install in a customers home and I don't (too complicated). Also, they must have been brain dead to use a glow stick ignitor. The hot air industry proved thier unreliablity (new components every 5 years or so), so some boiler maufacturers started using them. Spark ignition is much more reliable. They had the right idea for using the exhaust to preheat the intake air to boost efficency, but execution in the details was poor. I wish someone would use this same concept to make a condensing steamer in smaller sizes. I use Prestiges for all my installs. I would like to find an inexpensive on/off condensor for use in low cost gravity conversions. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

15 but/sq ft is pretty easy to attain here in Northern ILL

@ April 27, 2009 2:28 PM in Onix plateless vs. pex w/plates

My 2800 sq ft 1906 wood frame two story is at about 16 btu/sq.ft. at a design temp of -4F with 700 sq ft of glass. I also use alot of suspended tube with some plates at high heat areas...two story entries and under windows. If budgets would allow, more plates would be great, but HVAC always gets squeezed in new homes. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Yep,

@ April 27, 2009 2:19 PM in How much condensate is produced by 90 % boiler

that's what I measured for my Quamtum leap boiler, it made about 1 gal per hour at 100,000 input and firing about 99.8% efficiency. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

There's also the Super Boiler at 94%

@ April 12, 2009 6:35 PM in Big old school needs two new boilers....

which is/has been developed in Chicago and is undergoing testing at a number of locations, I understand. There was just a thread on this in the last few weeks and this sounds like a for real efficiency number, not just process. Also, of interest, is that Weisphaut's new US headquarters is also in Chicago (Elgin), if you are looking for good burners. I've been speaking to Christoph Petri, office 1 847 531-5800,cell 1 847-917-7579, cpetri@weishaupt-america.com. Maybe a superboiler as the fixed lead and a standard, less efficient boiler as secondary. You could keep costs down by specifying a less expensive, basic boiler for the secondary boiler (ie. two stage burner, two pass 80% or cast iron) that doesn't run much, and put the savings into purchasing a much more efficient fixed lead model. Maybe just rebuld and keep one of the old Kewanees going as the secondary boiler, I've seen a number running at 80% or higher combustion efficiencies with just atmospheric burners in them. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

The two gas valves

@ April 7, 2009 11:31 PM in Weil steamer

I think the LGB-6 has only one gas train. The two valves are in series. One valve, however, has a low fire circuit and a high fire circuit. There are two ignitors too. The first ignitor lights the pilot flame, then turns on low fire. When the flame travels across all the burners it trips a flame sensor connected to the second ignitor. This ignitor just turns on high fire. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Agreeed.....

@ April 7, 2009 11:26 PM in Big old school needs two new boilers....

I was at the show in Chicago where all the boiler manufacturers were showing off the cutaways of their boilers....none of them has nearly the tie as the little Kewanee I had cut up last year. It was sad, but high water content steam boilers with on/off burners just don't belong on single zone steam systems which use setbacks. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

That's the standard piping arrangement for Weil EG/EGH

@ April 7, 2009 8:42 AM in two pipe steam systems

that I see in the field throughout Northern Illinois. I was told by an old time Weil installer that's been putting in steamers for about 50 years that there is nothing wrong with that piping. Thank goodness that the big 3 inch risers can slow down the velocity enough that most of the water stays in the boiler anyway on the smaller sizes. If you're going to replace, go high efficiency and put in a Slantfin Intrepid with a gas burner. They are really not much more money than a typical atmospheric. They just require an installer with a little more knowledge. Boilerpro Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

No traps, just use Orifice plates

@ April 7, 2009 8:28 AM in 2-pipe steam, no traps!

Give Tunstall a call, they have them. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Before using two stage....

@ April 6, 2009 10:42 PM in Weil steamer

I'd see if it needs high fire at all. I have only been on one job in 15 years with an LGB that was actually sized right. All of the other systems only needed low fire to provide enough steam to support the radiation. Typically I just pull the second stage gas valve wire off and set it aside. I looked at a couple steamers this year that I estimate are 3 to 6 times what is needed for the structures. Talk about short cycle hell and leaky gaskets in only a few years time. Yikes! Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dr. Pepper......

@ April 6, 2009 10:28 PM in Big old school needs two new boilers....

Are you working on one of those Rockford Schools? It looks like this may be my best year ever. I already have proposals out on a couple months worth of commercial work with some residential on the side. I am also working on some commercial steam stuff in Chicago area. Also, give Ernie a call at R&D Electronics...I think he has a control that can do the job for you. He's in Morton Grove 1 847-421-7860. I had the opportunity to meet with him rather recently on a steam condo job on Chicago's north side...a great guy I hope to be doing business with. Tell him I sent you. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Question RE OAI coils

@ April 6, 2009 9:14 AM in Big old school needs two new boilers....

Whoops, reread post. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

How did you attach those heavy buggers to the brick wall?

@ March 27, 2009 8:52 AM in Solo 399 Boilers

did you through bolt them or just lots of anchors? To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Going back further....

@ March 24, 2009 8:43 AM in 94% steam boiler efficiency?

I think its safe to say this fancy input modulation is doing nothing more than the automatic damper systems on coal. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

On this unit....

@ March 23, 2009 11:51 AM in 94% steam boiler efficiency?

I am using Heat Timer's Digi Span Elite MCA control with a Ce Comp pressure transducer to modulate on pressure. The lowest range tranducer (4 to 20ma) Heat Timer offers is a 0 to 15 psi transducer with 1.5% of full range control error, which is too course for typical steam systems After an afternoon at the show in Chicago in January, and some phone calls, I was introduced to the CE Comp product (Libertyville, IL). It is avialable in a large number of ranges,I used the 0 to 60 ounce range, but lower are available, with only a 1% of full range error. The 0 to 60 range allowed me to get a overpressure rating of 15 PSI, within limits of the relief vavle. It is has a 4 to 20ma output and its own built in 3 digit display readout. The readout was necessary because the Heat Timer does not come with this control range, so its readout is inaccurate. The control is PID logic. The chief difficulty right now is that the burner, Power Flame's X4M high turn down model, has a 2 to 10 v input. However, the Belimo mod motor drives the air damper directly, so if you need to throttle the air flow at high fire, the high fire voltage is no longer 10V. With this boiler/burner set up high fire is at 4V. The Heat Timer is an inexpensive control (cost is an issue, the owner doesn't have money to burn) so it does not have fully adjustable output voltages. It does however, have some lower ranges, which should improve control of the burner. I know that better grade controls offer adjustment of the output voltage, including Siemens RWF-40 control used on big modulating burners as OEM, and I know the good folks over at R & D electronics in Chicago (Ernie Ruby)are interested in this project and may be willing to put together a control for this application, should a decent volume of them can be made. I do not have the burner in modulation operation yet, as there still needs to be TRV's added to the system... which is down the road a bit (the structure is in the early stages of renovation). If I have time, I may just shut off some radiation to see how it responds and try to get it tuned in. The other applications I hope to use this setup may involve outdoor reset of pressure for some two pipe systems I hope to convert to orifice inlets on radiators and convectors and on another system with steam coils. The radiator and convector systems may also just work on indoor temperature feedback with a proportional thermostat. I remember several years ago coming across some thermostats that I believe were intended for this type of application. I think they used HOneywells 0-135 ohm proportional thermostats and some additional control. Do you know of any possibilities? (The estimates for two of these jobs are already out and the third is on my desk). Time to get back to work! Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

I was fortunate....

@ March 23, 2009 10:32 AM in 94% steam boiler efficiency?

to have a client that is quite green oriented and was willing to step into a number of unknowns. This not only included the boiler set up but the fact the system it is attached to hasn't been used since the early 1970's and I made changes to the system to eliminate the condensate pump and go to gravity returns. He also lead me to Frank Gifford's modified concept of a Hartford Loop (The "Gifford Loop"), which I believe has contributed to an incredibly stable water line in this little boiler. The system is running silently at very low pressures after a couple of days of burner tuning and cleaning. I already have this setup in mind for 3 more installations. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark, it's almost done.....

@ March 23, 2009 10:06 AM in 94% steam boiler efficiency?

Final combustion tests should be done this week for the Modulating Slantfin Intrepid Steamer set up for 36,000 to 200,000 input modulation (burner is capable of 36,000 to 400,000, UL listed). There are a couple rough edges that we are smoothing out control wise, but solutions are already presenting themselves. So far these are all stock components. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Essentially....

@ March 21, 2009 9:19 AM in 94% steam boiler efficiency?

I think we are talking about an econmizer on the exhaust and using modern modulating gas trains for firing, which are vented out the sidewall with corrosion resistant vent material. Economizers are nothing new on industrial boilers and they have to be careful to not allow the stack temp drop below 325F or so. I believe they also use stainless venting. It appears Veissmann uses this concept on thier condensing boilers....the concentric venting system acts as the economizer. Dunkirk's first try at condensing boilers, the Quantum Leap (I have one heating my home), uses this same concept. They combined a condensing primary heat exchanger with a secondary economizer heat exchanger. The unit continues to condense up to 160F to 180F return water, since the secondary heat exchanger becomes increasingly effective as outdoor temperatures drop. All the technology is there, most of it prepackaged. I just wonder why no manufacturers are putting together the pieces and making a bundle in the steam boiler market. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"