Heating Help

Options.....

@ July 18, 2012 9:25 PM in Foreclosure Questions / Checklist?

I'd shot for either hot water or steam radiant wall panels with TRV's(thermostatic radiator valves) for room by room control for your heat emitters.  
For hot water: A simple multi loop supply and multi loop return for hot water probably using 3/8 or 1/2 inch copper or pex tubing to each unit should work. You should have full outdoor reset on the supply water temp and use a condensing boiler (reduced gas usage and boiler life and increased electrical usage and servicing cost) or a couple of conventional boilers ( much greater efficiency than single boiler and provides built in back up, but with increased fuel use (about 10 to 15%) over condensing boiler, but less electricity,longer life and reduced maintenance costs.  Hot water boilers in general tend to use a lot of proprietary parts, especially with the new efficiency standards.

For steam, use a new copper mini tube system  or more conventional piping for two pipe steam to the radiant wall panels or period radiators that you can dig up locally, all equipped with TRVS.  One pipe steam could also be an option.  Use two boilers stage fired like above.  These boilers could be simple atmospheric (conventional) boilers, but in this configuration achieve much greater efficiency and be very very simple to maintain (almost no proprietary parts) and virtually no electrical usage.  The other option would be a more complex modulating steam boiler  that would automatically fine tune its capacity depending on how much heat the TRV's call for.  This boiler would likely use less gas, but use some electricity for the burner.

For A/C the best choice, IMHO is a Ductless split systems  These can be had with individual room units or with mini ducted units to take care of a few rooms as a single zone.
Eliminating the duct work from the home should reduce air leakage about 10% when not in use or 50%  when operating (these numbers are from huge study completed on ducted systems in homes and supported by other sources).

Sometimes you get lucky,

@ July 18, 2012 7:00 AM in Foreclosure Questions / Checklist?

And some lower level radiators popped before everything froze, so the system would drain out.  However, if 11 are known to be broken, you're probably out of luck.  If you are willing to move 2 hours south, we have our home on the market. It can be seen at thesaguinhouse.com. It's a big old 2 story in a small town completely restored and renovated with all new mechanical/electrical, except the period radiators.  Gas is only 1,000 per year, same with electric.  Not too bad with 3200 sq ft of living space on the 2 main floors with 800 sq ft of glass.

Some other info...

@ July 12, 2012 10:31 AM in Oil to Gas conversion: hybrid with hydro air handler in attic for heat and cooling upstairs?

I agree with Steamhead and would like to add a little more info.  While I fully support the use of hot water heat, converting from steam to hot water rarely makes sense economically and in terms of comfort.  It also has a number of disadvantages. 
Boilers like the Alpine and all other modulating condensing boilers (mod con)achieve thier very high AFUE numbers with several sacrifices.  The first is a many fold increase in electrical usage due to at least one if not two pumps are running all winter, a draft fan, and the power to run all the electronics.  A safe number is a tenfold or more increase in electrical usage over a typical gas steam boiler (no power burner)
The second is the inherent complexity of the unit is going to cause higher repair costs over the life of the unit.  They are much more susceptible to power surges from the electric company or lightning.  I recommend the same surge protection equiment as you would use on a good computer.  Even then, you can blow the main board and end up with a very expensive repair with parts that may need to be ordered.   With a steam boiler you usually just blow a little inexpensive transformer, which you can pick up at most hardware stores and every contractor stocks.  Blown transformers are very rare since they are not especially susceptibel to power problems.
The third is a much shorter life.  The expected life of most units in the 20 year range with proper and very thorough maintenance.  For a steam boiler it is 30 years or more.
With your current system, you also can easily add room by room temperature control, which would likely completely balance any gas savings you might achieve through the use of a mod con boiler and give yo better comfort.
Forced air systems are widely documented to create far higher levels of building air leakage and, as you already raised, ductwork heat losses/gains. Ducted systems for heating are non existant outside the US, and are being used less and less for cooling.  Here are some links to documentation.
Report of ductwork leakage and increase in heat loss of homes  [u][size=12][color=#0000ff]http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1991/3445606042546.pdf[/size][/color][/u]
 
 
From: http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12530
Specifically, AFUE is the ratio of heat output of the furnace or boiler compared to the total energy consumed by a furnace or boiler. An AFUE of 90% means that 90% of the energy in the fuel becomes heat for the home and the other 10% escapes up the chimney and elsewhere. AFUE doesn't include the heat losses of the duct system or piping, which can be as much as 35% of the energy for output of the furnace when ducts are located in the attic.
 
 
[u][size=12][color=#0000ff]http://oikos.com/esb/28/duct_losses.html[/size][/color][/u]
 
http://oikos.com/esb/44/forcedair.html


Lastly, an item  rarely discussed in residential setting, but taken seriously in commercial settings, are the issues of smoke and flame spread inherent in ducted systems.

Find a real steam specialist, keep the steam, upgrade the boiler, use thermostatic radiator valves for room by room control. and get some nice quiet and efficient ductless split units.  In doing this,  you'll have about the most efficient and comfortable  heating and cooling avialable.  The heating system will be designed specifically to do its job well, and will the cooling.

Reducing boiler capacity...

@ July 11, 2012 3:02 PM in Cutting off Upper Floor steam pipes

some boilers can be adjusted, others not.   As a general rule of thumb (IMHO), most boilers are about 80% bigger than they need to be to start out with, so only running half the system could be difficult.    However, a good steam man can tell you what could be done.  Too bad you're not in the "City of big shoulders",  I could help you out directly.

I understand where your coming from....

@ July 11, 2012 9:28 AM in Cutting off Upper Floor steam pipes

I just wanted to make sure that you and your partner knew the  complete consequences of this change.   Unless you are spittting the steam system, the consequences will be potential poorer control of the heat, higher costs, and, if putting in forced air, potential air quaility issues, fire safety issues, drafts, no radiant comfort from the toasty steam radiators etc.   Its also likely that you will see an increase in fuel usage for your unit, because ducted systems increase the heat loss of a structure (see below), and this will effect your unit too.  
A suggestion...... for now just shut off the radiators on the upper floors ( or cap the piping) and if possible reduce the boiler capacity to better match your half of the system.  Leave the pipng in place and either leave the radiators in place or store them.  Let your partner put in the separate system, run all the gas lines, etc (very expesive) and you can make upgrades to the steam (inexpensive).    This way, when your partner finds out how much more comfortable your unit is, he can easily convert back.   Iv'e been asked to resurrect complete systems that were replaced by forced air, and having the piping and radiators still in place makes it an affordable propostion.
Report of ductwork leakage and increase in heat loss of homes  [u][size=12][color=#0000ff]http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1991/3445606042546.pdf[/size][/color][/u]
 
 
From: http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12530
Specifically, AFUE is the ratio of heat output of the furnace or boiler compared to the total energy consumed by a furnace or boiler. An AFUE of 90% means that 90% of the energy in the fuel becomes heat for the home and the other 10% escapes up the chimney and elsewhere. AFUE doesn't include the heat losses of the duct system or piping, which can be as much as 35% of the energy for output of the furnace when ducts are located in the attic.
 
 
[u][size=12][color=#0000ff]http://oikos.com/esb/28/duct_losses.html[/size][/color][/u]
 
http://oikos.com/esb/44/forcedair.html



Keep the options open for both of you.

I've been doing it that way sometime....

@ July 10, 2012 9:08 AM in free estimates

and agree with Mark.  If you consider the typical thorough review of the system and home costs you about 4 to 6 hours of time, it doesn't make sense to do this for free, especially when you know that the low ballers are doing it for 1/2 hour of time.   When you get into larger jobs, the costs obviously increase greatly if you are being thorough, but not very much for the low baller....they just look at the old equipment and install the same.
I usually spend some time on the phone with potential clients, but if they want a free estimate, I just give them a verbal one over the phone and explain to them its just about as meaningful as the two sentence written ones they get.  Some people are always looking for cheap, and then can't figure out why they never have any money when they spend only on junk contractors.
As a wise poster here says "you don't get what you don't pay for". 

I was not just talking balancing...

@ July 10, 2012 8:51 AM in Cutting off Upper Floor steam pipes

But giving each unit owner thier own thermostats while retaining the steam system.  Isn't this what everyone wants.....thier own thermostat(s)?

Sounds awfully expensive...

@ July 9, 2012 8:42 PM in Cutting off Upper Floor steam pipes

I had the same problem with an historic 3 flat in chicago.  When they found out it was going to cost $60,000.00 to put in separate systems (not including  the tens of thousands in architectural repairs) they were willing to fix the steam and have been grateful ever since.   If you can't get the building to heat evenly with properly set up Thermostatic valves providing room by room thermostats controling the temperature in reach room, it certainly won't heat properly with a only a couple of thermostats.     Are you sure they want to invest a huge sum of money for a likely completely inferior heating system.  Unless you are reconecting the steam system or putting in hot water with room by room control, nothing else will come close to what you have if it is upgraded with the proper controls.

Layouts.....

@ July 9, 2012 9:09 AM in Small 4-Plex super insullated - Best cost-effective way to heat units

I agree with the comments already made.  However, I have another.  Are the units going to be built using solar orientation as an input?   Passive solar can eliminate nearly all space heating needs, with little or no increase in costs. Or, you can reduce the r-value of the walls, etc. to reduce construction costs and still achieve the same energy usage.  Basic rule of thumb is to put all spaces that human comfort is highest priority toward the south..providing large window areas for both solar gain and lighting, and then place utility areas such as storage, closets, kitchens, baths against the north with only enough windows for ventilation.
I'd do some research in this field before moving further.  A book called "Design with Climate"  by Olgav ? would be a simple start.  Passive solar has been the most ignored aspect of building design in most housing in the past 50 years. 
BTW I also hold a degree in Architecture, with a speciality in City and Regional Planning,  so I have seen alot of climate based design.

It probably can be done, but why?

@ July 9, 2012 8:42 AM in Cutting off Upper Floor steam pipes

Overall costs are lower with single systems, typically, and if temperature control is an issue, just get the system mains vented well, balance the venting on the radiators and install thermostatic valves on the radiators to give you room by room temperature control.  In the  Chicago area, if you split metering, the costs go up significantly due to the meter charges.  I am reglularly removing seperately metered units and combining buildings onto a single meter, savings thousands of dollars a year.   Also, Chicago requires rentals to provide information on utilty costs of rentals, so smart people will see the extra costs of seperate metering and look elsewhwere. 

Commercial and industrial not the same as heating

@ July 8, 2012 10:00 PM in Large commercial commissionning

Low pressure steam requires much better piping for proper operation than high pressure commercial and industrial. 

Buying mailing lists...

@ July 7, 2012 11:39 AM in Buying mailing lists...

I want to do some targeted mailings to new home owners...condo/coops and single family in areas of high steam heat concentration.  Any of you had experiences you would like to share?

Yes, we (the USA) still are in the dark ages......

@ July 1, 2012 10:06 AM in Airconditiong when you have hydronic heat

and putting in ducted A/C systems.  I recommedd ductless split systems.  Here in Chicago contractors say that they don't work,  et el. , especially for the chruches I've talked to.  From what I understand, all of Asia cools this way. 

all that was needed....

@ June 30, 2012 10:49 PM in Commercial install

to offset the system take off was to add one elbow and about 2 feet of pipe to offset the supply piping toward the back of the boiler.  You may also have needed to move the rear boiler supply connection forward.  I've done this a number of times and it only takes another hour or so.

Chemicals can be good...

@ June 29, 2012 10:48 PM in QUESTION ABOUT STEAM BOILERS

for all boilers, no matter the size, so long as they are good and used properly.

Soft water can kill systems because it can easily turn acidic.  Acidic condensate will eat the metal parts in the system.    The general target is to have the water somewhat base.   A proper chemical treatment can keep the water in the base range where it will create no corrosion, but will have additional additive that prevent the foaming that occurs when water is this base. 

I use Rhomar products in all the boilers I maintain when the owner wants a high quality maintenance program.   After a years use, the water stays clean with almost no crud.

I agree...bad piping

@ June 29, 2012 10:03 PM in Commercial install

Even Smith's piping leaves something to desired for swing joinnts. 

Only one Cast iron boiler manufacturer that I am aware of allows welded piping for mulitple riser connections to headers....and I see their boiler's failing all the time at the connections between the sections. 
I am sorry, Henry, but that boiler should be repiped with threaded joints at the riser connections and with the system take off after both supplies.   It is shown in the directions. 

Getting grandfathered...

@ June 15, 2012 3:41 PM in Anyone taken the NATE Tests.....

How do you do that?

Getting grandfathered...

@ June 15, 2012 3:41 PM in Anyone taken the NATE Tests.....

How do you do that?

Anyone taken the NATE Tests.....

@ June 6, 2012 10:15 AM in Anyone taken the NATE Tests.....

Much of the state and federal efficiency upgrade funding in Illinois is only available to those holding certain certificates...NATE and BPI mainly.  As a Steam specialist there are no certificates covering steam, so there is no certification availlable to work on steam....unless you hold another certificate and do steam on the side.  I was wondering what the CORE and GAS Hydronics tests look like.

Yep...

@ June 5, 2012 12:31 PM in DOE efficiency testing

I temporarily unhardwired my boiler to check power usage.  If you have an electrician around, he/she could do the same for you.

These meters are very useful..

@ June 5, 2012 7:18 AM in DOE efficiency testing

http://www.p3international.com/products/special/p4400/p4400-ce.html

Start testing all sorts of things and you'll usually discover some real power hogs.

I can see why you're confused.....

@ June 5, 2012 4:12 AM in to convert or not to convert

Most homes in the US are built with only multi room thermostats, but not worldwide.  Thermostats, as we know them, are increasingly rare on the world wide market...replaced by TRV's.   We in the US are decades behind most of the rest of the world when it comes to heating technology application.  We have it, we just don't use it.
TRV's were probably available when your home was built..the technology is from the early 1900's.  They have been available for many decades at least.  However, their widespread use on the world wide market appears to be more recent...the past couple of decades.  I have even seen them used in buildings in the US that were built in the early 80's. 
To give an example:  While recently working on a multi-unit condo  building in Chicago with a single one pipe steam system, a new owner moved in from Spain and could not believe there was not room by room control over his radiators.  He immediately went out and bought TRV's for his unit.  He is the only one comfortable in the building.
TRV's largely or completely overcome over radiation issues so heating is far more even than can be provided with a single control trying to regulate multiple rooms.  TRV's allow the heating system to compensate for room by room heat gains or losses such as cooking in the kitchen, solar gains (which are constantly changing), the family all together entertaining, a dining room full of people, bright sunny days that warm southern exposure rooms, while the cold winds cause northern rooms to get cold. 
I have no doubt that the separate zones improved the comfort situation over an out of balance and poorly maintained steam system. The balance problems can be extreme... with some areas hitting the 90's (F) while others are in the 50's or 60's . However, tweaking the steam system and installing properly designed/installed TRV"S would have likely yielded overall better heating balance,allowed for better match of the temperature of each room for its use, and probably reduce overall heating needs.....For a small fraction of the cost.  You should be applauded for not going the El cheapo route usually taken...installing forced air. 
As to boilers over 85% efficient, take a look at the thread on AFUE's...."High Efficiency" equipment is not as efficient as you may think.....even hot water boilers. The big gain for this equipment is in the modulation ability and outdoor reset, not so much in the condensing ability.    And 90%+ combustion efficiency steam boilers appear to be becoming increasingly available.  Whether the increased electrical usage ( and complexity) to gain condensing efficiency is worth it, still needs to be determined.  However, the increased electrical usage usually necessary to gain burner modulation sure appears to be, and that can easily be done right now.
The US heating market is an anomaly when compared to the world wide market.  It is dominated by forced air heating (the rest of the world is hot water) and is almost completely forced air ducted cooling... the rest of the world uses a variety of cooling alternatives.  There are alot more alternatives than most people think when it comes to providing comfort in thier homes...or any building.