Heating Help

So, it could work, except for...

@ August 4, 2010 3:39 PM in Designing with different delta-T

"Trying to avoid raising supply temp just to satisfy this one room. Sure,
my return temps would go up a wee bit, but only a wee bit."

I missed that comment until this last pass. My suggestion flies in the face of not wanting to raise supply for one lousy room.

Did you calculate that scenario of running the higher overall supply, then reducing surface area in the other rooms to compensate?

To Rob: With all the super-insulated homes being built nowadays, such as ICF, SIPS, spray-foam, and other super-tight envelopes, I know this topic has been raised before.

Somewhere in my memory, I recall an article in PM mag or the RPA newsletter about just such a thing - do we really need every square foot of floor when the BTU load drops into single digits? Causes some customers to question their "warm floors" when the don't get warm (but still heat the house just fine).

Isn't this a ceiling application?

@ August 4, 2010 2:41 PM in Designing with different delta-T

Hi Rob:

Quote: "Unless Lionel Richie shows up barefoot, however, I shouldn't have to
worry too much about a couple degrees difference in ceiling temperature,
right?"

Wouldn't that also apply to cold spots?

Reduction of surface area in other rooms?

@ August 4, 2010 12:17 PM in Designing with different delta-T

If you are simply aiming for a single-temp system, and you don't mind running ALL your temps a little higher to match the highest BTU/ft2 requirement, would it be possible to reduce the coverage area in the other rooms enough to equalize the BTU/ft2 number with a common flow rate and common delta-T?

Barry

What products do you have? Need?

@ June 1, 2010 3:03 PM in Water temps and costs different types of rad floor

So, who's at least provided product (panels, tracks, etc)? I don't think you'll have much trouble getting participation from most manufacturers unless they already know their numbers are inflated.

Launstein floors didn't have much trouble gathering product for their hardwood testing lab. Maybe you should partner with them and bring your hydronic expertise to their lab and get the data from the infrastructure they already have in place. Including hardwood floor covering!

Water temp chart sources

@ May 26, 2010 10:43 PM in Water temps and costs different types of rad floor

I have a PDF file of nearly 4Mb (that I don't think will post here because of its size) that contains water temperature charts for several floor heating methods, including Warmboard, thin slab at 1 1/2" with various tube spacing, Quik Trak, Thermalboard, Joist Track, staple-up, RauPanel, and a separate file for Ecowarm (new entry and didn't get into my original analysis). Disclaimer: I sell Ecowarm. Disclaimer 2: I used to sell Warmboard.

My sources were the manufacturer's specs and Wirsbo's Design Manual.

I did what you were asking for, but haven't taken the time to put all the data into one graphic yet. But with your own sweat equity, you can plot the temps for yourself by looking up the ones you're interested in.

The cost data will be a little harder to come by. I've done cost comparisons of the various floor heating methods for nearly 10 years and the number of variables is staggering depending on how many methods/products you want to compare.

For cost data, I found it best to pick two, then compare the methods side-by-side. Get the devil's advocate position from the devil himself, meaning talk to the reps to get their side of the story regarding the cost factors of their competitor. Then do the same with the other devil. You should get pretty close to apples-to-apples that way.

I can email the PDF to anyone who would like it.

BLD

Respectfully....

@ July 7, 2006 1:09 PM in Hydronic Design Only Services (not contracting)

tipping my hat to you, sir. Your reputation (and your firm's) precedes you. Thank you for chiming in. I hope others who haven't posted yet are not intimidated... ;-)

Where are all the

@ July 6, 2006 6:30 PM in Hydronic Design Only Services (not contracting)

Installers like you guys? But as I noted in my original post, there are some worthy folks trying to get into the field, and have the hands-on expertise, but need a little help on the front-end (design). I'm sure I've seen other posts around the 'net and at the RPA site regarding the lack of qualified radiant designers and contractors around the country. Not that there aren't ANY, but in some regions there aren't enough! So perhaps we can find a temporary bridge to help ramp the new ones into the field, like providing them decent designs and specifying components. I think it might be a good niche for some who LOVE the design side to provide the necessary specifications for the hands-on guy in the field to follow. Besides, even you folks with in-house designers - isn't there a division of labor between the CAD guy and the pipe-wrench guy? Would you trust your drafter to actually install the controls? (I know some of you will answer that they are one and the same person!)

Manufacturer vs. installer

@ July 6, 2006 6:16 PM in Hydronic Design Only Services (not contracting)

Hi Paul: Good to "see" you again. You asked: "Is it the contractor's responsibility to confirm all calcs?" In a nutshell, yes. Just as you would with any other heating platforms besides Warmboard. We are simply a manufacturer, much like the other manufacturers whose products you buy. We know what our panels will produce, but we don't know what the need is for individual applications. That's your job. Our work is simply a "shop drawing" that aids in the proper installation for the field crews. It is not a replacement for a good system design and has never been "sold" as such. Think of it as the jig-saw puzzle map. It is a happy day for us when our product goes into a project where there is a competent radiant heating contractor who does the heat calcs and determines how much heat needs to go into any given space. Addendum: Regarding the supplemental heating question, we all know that any floor that is heated to the 85 degree maximum surface temp will produce around 30 BTU/ft2/hour. Any heat loss that shows a load above that will require supplemental heating, regardless of whether it is Warmboard or some other substrate. The radiant contractor is in the best position to know whether supplemental heating is called for, not a material manufacturer. Warmboard has never claimed to carry a load beyond the max surface temp (we can, but not without over-heating the occupant's feet!).

I get asked frequently for...

@ July 5, 2006 8:46 PM in Hydronic Design Only Services (not contracting)

Hydronic design only services. I've been lurking at The Wall for years, so I know many of you do just that - providing complete heat loss calculations, component specifications, and schematics for the hydronic systems. My situation: I have a number of heating contractors in the Northwest who frequently ask me if we do that type of design. As many of you know, we don't. We provide a shop drawing to aid in the framing of the Warmboard panels and another for the tubing installation, but we leave the system design to the professionals. Unfortunately, many of the professionals are hoping we could do the rest of the system for them. As was detailed in another thread, there are a very small number of wholesalers who can provide this service to their customers, but even they are diminishing in number. I would like to hear from designers who can help radiant contractors who may not have the manpower, the time, or the software savvy to design a complete system from scratch, but who are looking to step-up to a higher standard without having to staff a designer right away. I spoke to one particular contractor last week whose work I had seen in the field - clean and professional, and whose sheet-metal shop was first-class, but who was crying loudly for some help in providing help with hydronic design. He was running "rule-of-thumb" for most of his load calcs (thank goodness hydronics is somewhat forgiving), but was anxious to dial his radiant business up to the same standard as his HVAC side. He's willing to pay to have someone shore up the radiant design function for him, while maintaining a high standard of workmanship for installation. I promised him I would present his need anonymously here and forward any contacts to him for his follow-up. His cry for help echoed many others I have heard before, so he won't be the only one to benefit. If you offer hydronic system design services to installers, please drop me a quick note with your contact information and a short description of the services you offer. Is it OK to post the contact stuff in this thread? Or is it too blatantly commercial? Barry E. LaDuke BarryLaDuke@Warmboard.com

Aren't we talking about really low temperatures here?

@ September 23, 2004 8:19 PM in Radiant under Kitchen Cabinets?

If the floor surface area is a maximum of 85 degrees for only the highest heat loads, and given the reduction of temperature as it makes its way along the conductive path of the cabinets, is it really that big a concern to have heat under the cabinets? Also doesn't heat flow slow down when the delta T is smaller (like it would be in a cabinet area) so the majority of the heat would just continue on its merry way to an area (outside the cabinetry) with a higher delta T? Finally, don't the cabinets actually become low level contributors to the heat replacement (albeit at lower temps than the floor surface), thereby aiding the floor in replacing the heat. It appears to me to be no great risk and some small benefit to heat under cabinets; and no great benefit and some reduction of system performance to keep tubing out from under them. Barry E. LaDuke

Gensco

@ January 2, 2004 2:19 PM in Roth insulated panel

S Davis: Thanks! That is helpful as WA is part of my territory. I'll give them a call. Barry

Product literature available?

@ January 2, 2004 2:11 PM in Roth insulated panel

Dave: Thank you for your reply. I also thought it was ideal for retro-fit. Is there an address or phone on any documents you have so I can get some literature from Roth?

Info available on Roth aluminum panels?

@ December 30, 2003 8:53 PM in Roth insulated panel

Does anyone use the Roth aluminum transfer panels that are insulated underneath? I have only heard rumors about them and I expect that they might work well for basement retro-fit applications. I checked out the Roth-USA website and they have no information about them. Is there a Roth rep lurking out there that might enlighten me? Are there some heating professionals who have tried them who might comment on their use in basement retro-fits? You can e-mail me directly or post here. Barry

Conversion to therms

@ November 5, 2003 8:32 PM in New Site

Ernie: Although my head hurts after doing all the math, I appreciated the conversion table putting the cost of heating into common measurements regardless of fuel source. Helps tell the story well. I might even send some of my customers over there when the conversation turns that direction... Barry