Heating Help

Cool! But now what?

@ November 11, 2009 11:35 AM in improperly placed main vent?

Thanks, Steamhead! I've been poking around "off the wall" a bit, but I didn't stumble across that file. Very helpful. My radiator traps do look like the one in fig. 3 (before it got sliced in half), and the valves resemble those in fig. 5, although without the elephant's trunk pointer.

The pamphlet talks about "when the system is operating under a few ounces of pressure." I couldn't figure out whether that was just a description of a condition or whether that's what the system should be set at. Right now, my Pressurtrol is at 1 LB. Should I lower it?

Feel free to send me to The Lost Art or some other thread. I'm new enough at this that I don't yet know what applies to my system and what doesn't.

crossover traps?

@ November 10, 2009 9:39 AM in improperly placed main vent?

Thanks for the help, Jamie. How do I know if someone has really messed up the returns? Also, what's a crossover trap? I tried looking for pictures of them online but couldn't find any. Is there another name for them?

more information about my system. Part 2

@ November 10, 2009 9:36 AM in improperly placed main vent?

Hi Rod,

Thanks for the advice about the water level. I'll try that. I'll also post some more pictures, hopefully later today.

About photo 4a: A and B are actually the same pipe. The gap in insulation between A and B is a plugged Tee. The insulation gap after B is where the gas pipe is. It's too close to pipe A-B-C to insulate.

C is a continuation of A-B; it's just a larger diameter pipe. The price for the insulation for that pipe was quite high, so I improvised.

D is flexible ducting for the air conditioning.

Just out of the photo, C branches off, first in a T and then in an elbow. After the elbow, you get E in the other photo.

I have assumed that the device in 4B is a safety. I'll try to get a close-up of the information stamped on it and post that.

Sorry to be brief. Just swamped with less interesting stuff. I'll send you an email, Rod.

check valve?

@ November 9, 2009 10:16 PM in improperly placed main vent?

Here are some close ups of the "A" valve. Is it a check valve? I've tried to photograph the other valve but so far, no luck getting a clear picture. I'll try again tomorrow.

More information about my system

@ November 9, 2009 12:06 PM in improperly placed main vent?

You know how people say that the camera adds 10 pounds? I think it also adds mess. My basement doesn't seem this bad in person. Really.

I believe the gauge does work, although I never noticed that it also measures vacuum. I think that it has only moved a little toward positive pressure. It's too warm now for the heat to be on, but I'll check tonight when I imagine it will be firing.

You're right that Z is just what someone marked in the past. I've probably misunderstood what a water level line is. I thought it meant "Don't let the water get below this line" but I think you're telling me that it means "Keep the water at this line." I've let it be a bit high because I've been doing frequent blow downs to get rid of the rust from the summer. I have not been adding water. It just started out high.

I don't think that running at the Z point makes the boiler shut off. In fact, I'm almost certain it does not. The low level shut off does work. I check it at least weekly.

I don't know what to say about A. I looked at hundreds of images of check valves online, and couldn't find one that looks like that. It's certainly more than just a clean out. The bottom is two semi-circles.

B looks like more than a T fitting to me. There's a bolt or something perpendicular to the return portion. I'll try to snap a photo of it. It's in a tight spot, though.

I'm actually between Dayton and Cincinnati. I thought that Cincinnati had at least one steam heating company, and I would imagine Dayton did, too. Why I have Cleveland parts is a mystery to me.

Here are some piping photos. Let me know if I'm not photographing what you're asking for.

Just when I thought I was understanding this...

@ November 8, 2009 9:29 PM in improperly placed main vent?

Hi Rod, thanks for sticking with me on this. It had occurred to me that I might have a vapor system. Not for any good reason, just because I wasn't sure. When I looked through the Lost Art, I think my eyes crossed when I saw how many different kinds of vapor systems there are.

Anyway, I think that my system is more like the diagram on the top right of page 126. Both of the vents are the Hoffman 76As. There's no F&T trap like there is on the left side diagram.

I looked around for anything weird. There's no expansion tank anywhere (I've been in the attic, too). There's no pump or any other gizmo. The house was built at near the end of the "vapor era" in 1929, so it certainly could be a vapor system, or like you said, a former vapor system. I took a picture of the only odd thing I could think of. There are three caped fittings (is that the right word?) on the boiler. Two of them are on the left side of the picture. One is at the very bottom. The bigger plug is behind the sight glass. The only other weird thing I could think of is that the floor near one of the radiators on the second floor gets warm. The warm area starts about 2 feet from the radiator (i.e., it's not the radiator warming the floor around it). Did they ever put tanks between floors? My dog likes that spot a lot.

Do you think it's a vapor system still? I'm really getting into this.

Pretty sure it is.

@ November 8, 2009 1:20 PM in improperly placed main vent?

Just to make sure I'm right: each radiator has two pipes, one coming in near the top of the radiator, and the other coming at the bottom on the opposite end. The higher pipe has a valve. The lower pipe has what I think is a trap. There are no vents on the radiators themselves.

The traps say "The Ideal Heating Equipment Co., Cleveland." I think these are NLA, so it's good to hear that rebuild kits might be available.

Going back to venting: should I use multiple vents on both dry returns? As I understand it, there are two loops. One loop of piping carries steam from the boiler to the laterals. Any "leftover" steam then goes back to the boiler through one of the dry returns. The other dry return gathers the condensate from the radiators and sends it back to the boiler. I was thinking that it's more important to maximally vent this loop than the first one. Am I wrong about that? Should they both be equally vented?

Much better than what I was thinking.

@ November 8, 2009 10:59 AM in improperly placed main vent?

Thanks for the great info and suggestions, Rod. I had been thinking about doing some calculations based on gas usage and degree heating days to try to gauge how many vents I needed. Your way is much better. And makes more sense. I wouldn't be surprised if I discovered that some of my radiator traps are bad in the process. But that's the subject for another post.

Thanks again for all your help,

Brian

Incredibly helpful!

@ November 7, 2009 7:39 PM in improperly placed main vent?

Thanks, Rod. Labeling my setup was very helpful. I think I'm getting it now.

I appreciate the warning about clearance. I was looking at the Hoffman catalogue, just because that's what's there now. I didn't notice any specs for distance to ceiling. One of the photos on Gerry Gill's site showed the Gortons really close to the ceiling (or subfloor). Is there some rule of thumb about how far away from wood the vents should be or does it not matter?

The article on Maximizing Venting was very helpful, too. Is there a formula for calculating how many and what kind of vents to use? Would it be okay to just add a "tree" of two or three vents where my main vent is now or should it really be on the main?

Thanks, Rod.

@ November 7, 2009 5:18 PM in improperly placed main vent?

I appreciate your helpful comments--and the reminder that not everyone in the 1920s was a master craftsman. :-)

I'm going to post pictures of what the pipes do after the vents. I didn't understand where some people move their vents to. I thought my were on the mains, but I'd be the first to admit that I'm not sure exactly what a main is. Is it something more than not a branch?The pipe with the valve is the fresh water line (apologies if that's obvious).

Right now, the main vent on the non-insulated pipe is spitting. I'm doing daily if not twice daily blow downs to see if cleaner water might take care of the problem. I think that the vents might also be the wrong ones and perhaps past their useful life. They're Hoffman 76As, which seems to be NLA. I found one older posting here that described them as for coal fired systems, which mine might have been.

sorry, I wasn't clear.

@ November 7, 2009 8:57 AM in improperly placed main vent?

I couldn't get the "diagram" to stay as I typed it in. The idea was that the pipe from the vent to the elbow is 16'' and then it's a 112'' run to the next elbow. The pipe has an O.D. of 1.25''. I'm describing the one without insulation in the photograph, btw.

improperly placed main vent?

@ November 6, 2009 9:07 PM in improperly placed main vent?

I'm trying to match up what I'm learning from The Lost Art with my own heating system. I was wondering whether the main vents are improperly placed. I'm focusing on the one on the non-insulated run. It's on a T (bad, right?) but I wonder if the 90° elbow and 16'' run minimizes the end-of-the-run problems. I'd like to think that my system was installed by deadmen who knew.

Here's a diagram. Any help would be appreciated.


Vent
| 16''
| 112''
----------------------------------

Will do!

@ October 30, 2009 1:05 PM in can't adjust my pilot light

I scheduled an appointment for the soonest they had. I told them that I'd like the system inspected to make sure it's running safely and efficiently. Please let me know if there are things that are commonly overlooked, things to be sure are done, etc. (BTW, I checked the "find a pro" link and there's no one within 50 miles of me)

Pilot light too low on thermocouple?

@ October 30, 2009 9:16 AM in can't adjust my pilot light

Thanks for the response. The pilot is a soft blue flame, so I think it's okay. It does sound as if it's hitting too low on the thermocouple, though. You can sort of tell this on the third photo.

I think that we're talking about the same thing for adjusting the pilot light, then.

I appreciate your concern about CO, but I marked the Maxitrol before I tried adjusting it. When it didn't change the pilot light, I moved it back to where it was. Who ever worked on the boiler last left unused parts (like another pilot light line) rather than removing them. Perhaps the Maxitrol is another unused part, just sitting there.

I can't find any markings on the gas valve. I've looked several times.

can't adjust my pilot light

@ October 29, 2009 8:41 PM in can't adjust my pilot light

I was trying to adjust the pilot light on my boiler but I can't seem to figure out where the adjustment screw is. I thought it was the plastic screw under the large brass screw on the left, but that didn't do anything. Neither the nut nor the screw on the Maxitrol did anything either.

Two other questions: do I need to adjust the pilot light? I thought it should have some yellow, which as you can see it doesn't. And should the thermocouple be lower? I thought that the tip should be in the pilot light flame.

Thanks for any help.

Thanks

@ November 24, 2008 8:53 AM in blocking baseboard radiators

Thanks. I don't think I have (easy) access to the fins but this is a good tip in case I can't block the openings.

Blocking baseboard radiators

@ November 22, 2008 10:00 AM in blocking baseboard radiators

I have a two pipe steam system. To save money, I'd like to shut off the radiant baseboards in a converted patio addition. I don't see any shut off valves either in the baseboards or in the basement. Can I just block the baseboard heaters with cardboard? Or put duct tape over the upper openings? What's the best solution besides adding a shut off valve?