Heating Help

Kurt I Wonder

@ June 19, 2013 11:00 AM in High Efficieny Gas Boiler Recommendation

What the markets opinion is going to be on this which will be avail here in a couple of
months. My guess is that price point will dictate over the product itself.


http://www.viessmann.co.uk/content/dam/internet_uk/images/products/vitodens_222-f.pdf

Here's The Navien Story

@ June 18, 2013 6:04 PM in High Efficieny Gas Boiler Recommendation

In my opinion. The reason for its popularity is price, plain and simple. They do a great marketing job and most homeowners are on tight budgets and can't afford the better products for the application. Any combi boiler, tankless or which ever name you want to put on it, best application is the condo, one bed apartment, cottages etc. The wear and tear in multiple simultaneous applications beats the living crap out of them.

The misconception here is that the Navien cut your fuel bills. It's not the Navien its the technology of modulation/outdoor reset that cut the fuel bills. Like HeatPro and others have said, come back in 5-7yrs and let us know how much you spent on replacing parts.

Yuppers

@ June 18, 2013 5:41 PM in Lochinvar WHN with indirect

Suggest you read page 63 of the installation manual..Section 10 - DHW..

http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/WH-I-O-Rev%20M.pdf

Add A Cuno/AquaPure

@ June 18, 2013 5:32 PM in Hard or soft: what water to feed into Hydronic heating system

AP430 at the cold water feed. Most cost effective way and simple..

http://www.completeplumbingsource.com/cuno-ap430-hot-water-protection-system

If 80,000 Btu/hr

@ June 17, 2013 11:51 AM in Delta t ...... The obsession

Is 100%, off is 0. Boiler mini is 16,000 or 20% so if you were delivering 30,000 btu/hr you'd be at 37% rate of modulation. How do you know your delivering 30,000 btu/hr?

Primary Pump Flow Rate x (Boiler Supply-Boiler Return) x 500...Not system supply and return.

If my memory serves me correctly that 007 on Jean's boiler is moving 7 plus gpm across his primary.

He can believe that the water temp is dictating the firing rate all he wants. Yes the control logic is looking for a target temp but the control uses the boiler delta as its aiming device to get there not the target temp itself. Water temp is just that water temp. Need a temp difference or your just in equilibrium. If it didn't it would just bang off high limit all the time.

As the boiler delta-t closes the boiler backs off, as the boiler delta-t increase, the boiler ramps. Now the control logic may say when you get to a particular water temp to start backing off but that's not a magic number its because of the boiler delta begins to shrink as the emitter begins to satisfy the room.

Believe What You Wish

@ June 17, 2013 8:15 AM in Delta t ...... The obsession

Water temp and btu/hr output are two different things.. The only way any modulating condensing boiler operates is based off it's delta-t. How else would fan speed adjust? The boiler doesn't modulate off water temp. Yes even your boiler..

I've had this conversation many of time from a friend who worked at Weil and was part of not only your boilers control but also the current control.

Why Don't You Just

@ June 17, 2013 7:47 AM in Delta t ...... The obsession

Pipe in a thermostatic with a bypass for that second floor zone. Get the system running on constant circulation. Problem solved..

Jean

@ June 17, 2013 7:31 AM in Delta t ...... The obsession

A condensing boiler does not change it's firing rate to track the outdoor temperature. Its changes its firing rate tracking the boiler delta-t. That's the aiming device it uses not temperature. Control the boiler delta-t control its modulation rate. Notice, I'm saying the boiler delta-t. You cannot confuse that with the system delta-t when piped pri sec. You can have the boiler or primary side running on a different delta- then the secondary side. A btu is a btu is a btu no matter if I'm moving it at a 5,10,15,20,30,35, 40 degree delta on the boiler side. You can also have an indirect piped in on the primary side using a different delta-t. In essence you could have a pump sized to run an indirect on a 20 and the boiler primary pump on a 30.

The boiler sides job is to move btu/hr to the secondary and that's it period.

Gordy,

The flaw in condensing boilers is the fixed speed boiler pump. Its sized from most mfgs for a 20 degree delta-t to move a flow rate that is only needed when you need the full output of the boiler. How many days is that? What happens with the rest of the gpm the system side doesn't take away from the primary?

I'd love to see a built in relay onto the boiler. Say one that you could tell it each zones flow rate and your design delta-t so it could modulate based off the system need while controlling a variable speed primary pump.

Heat Loss

@ June 15, 2013 7:18 AM in High Efficieny Gas Boiler Recommendation

You have to do that heat loss. If this is an energy star home your probably in the 20 btu/hr area and may even less. Based on that your looking at a boiler that could heat a 18,000 sqft house.

A condensing boiler will work efficiently on a hydro air system. Need that heat loss though in order to find the needed water temp at design. Have plenty running on 120 degree supply water temp.

Having both the radiant (low temp) and hydro (high temp) systems I'd look at a Viessmann Vitodens 200. The boiler can control two separate heating circuits via controlling a 3-way mixing valve for the radiant. May simplify your control strategy.

There's Another Aspect

@ June 11, 2013 7:49 PM in How the Europeans do it?

Most kids that don't go to college tend to be the unmotivated, undisciplined. No college, should have to spend a 2yr hitch within one of the branches of the armed forces whether reserves or full duty.

Here's The Big Difference

@ June 11, 2013 7:38 PM in How the Europeans do it?

Contractors over there have a much better relationship with the Manufacture of the Products they install. There is no wholesaler. You want a Viessmann boiler, you buy it from Viessmann and have a Viessmann salesperson. Want a Wilo or Grundfos pump, same thing. The entire field from mfg to distribution is much different.

Manufacturers tend to do much more technical training then they do here. There's less of the sales pitch more on the technical aspects of products. Like your German friend says, they tend to specialize and that goes all the way to the choice of the products they install.

Was at Viessmann in March. At the Berlin Facility contractors were coming and going. Same in Allendorf. If you attended ISH and what was wondering what was going on at the booth upstairs it's simple. Sales, Sales, Sales. Was told they conduct 2 yrs worth of business at that event. I'm willing to bet they brought in thousands of contractors from all over the world. It was unbelievable.

I Posted Them

@ June 9, 2013 8:41 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5

Because from the 1st one there was a lot of opinion and wanted to make sure the entire process of the blog was seen. There still is one more to finish it out.

I enjoy reading each and every opinion. You never no what you might learn or pick up on. I'll still stick my stance of, use John's blog and what you know about a Delta-P pump and choose the one that works best for you.

There is not a right or wrong nor a good or bad. In any case both styles of pumps will work. One may tend to working better in a particular application over another and that's for you, the installer to choose.

That in my opinion, is what his entire blog is about. Remember the first blog? Information, take it how you choose.

That's Weird

@ June 9, 2013 8:49 AM in radiant heating/cooling combi systems???

It opens for me. Maybe becuase I copied and pasted from my IPad. It can be found at
www.uponorpro.com

They recently release a Radiant Cooling Complete Design Manual. Actually working on a radiant heating and cooling project right now. Pretty amazing how much cooling you can get out of a floor. About 11 Btuhr sqft in this project.

Here's Some Reading

@ June 9, 2013 7:53 AM in radiant heating/cooling combi systems???

http://www.uponor-usa.com/Misc/RCDM/Default.aspx

Show Us

@ June 7, 2013 1:57 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5

What happens Rob so we can all see. Your throwing opinion and not seeing any facts. Chart it, plot it and write it. Show us what happens. We are all here to learn more. I need more information then just opinion. I'm a, have to visually see guy.

How Can You Say

@ June 7, 2013 11:14 AM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5

You cannot change pressure by opening and closing zone valves? Are you saying each zone has the exact same head loss and flow requirement? So no matter what, I'm moving x gpm consistently no matter the zone length, head loss or btu/hr requirement 24hrs a day seven days week or as long as the pump is running?

Bashing

@ June 6, 2013 10:00 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5

My entire point has been that John has not been bashing. He's been showing how both pumps operate under the conditions in his blog. It's information and education for contractors that haven't a clue as to how either pump operates.

Take the knowledge apply both pumps operation to your job and pick the one that fits best for you. What's wrong with that. He hasn't said anything that is not 100 percent true.

I See Alot Of Big % Numbers

@ June 6, 2013 9:50 AM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5

But % of what? $100.00 operating cost, $1,000 operating cost. Let's define a dollar amount. It's nice to see big percentage numbers but what are we talking about in dollars and cents? Are we replacing pump for pump or removing pumps and adding zone valves to lower our electrical footprint.

The electrical talk while valid also needs to be looked at on a job by job basis.

I Feel That

@ June 5, 2013 9:01 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5

A lot of people have taken it all out of context. I take JB's blog as education in looking at both pumps and seeing which one fits the application I'm looking at. They both have their place and there is nothing wrong with plotting how each pump would react in a particular job and pick the one that fits best.

Reality is that for the application he is putting both pumps in that is how each pump reacts under those conditions per how the pumps are set up. If everyone remembers the first paragraph in the first blog he says, take it how you see fit.

Pretty Sad

@ June 5, 2013 3:43 PM in Pretty Sad

Come on man!

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/06/cold_hearted_thieves_steal_dorchester_church_ac

Simple Anwser

@ June 3, 2013 6:00 PM in Tankless meets Jacuzzi: who wins?

Do the Math for the right size unit cause the math never lies...

GPM x (Temp Rise x 500) = Btuh/hr needed

A Roman Tub Filler for a Whirlpool/Air Tub could flow 15gpm at 40Psi water pressure. Suggest you figure that out first. Find some 5 gallon buckets, weigh them, get out the stop watch, run the water for one minute. Weigh the buckets of water. There is 8.33lbs in one gallon of water.


Temp Rise is the difference between your incoming cold water temperature and what set point water temp you want. For instance in my area NY incoming is 50 degrees and we generally want to make 120 degree hot water. 120-50 = 70 Degree Rise

15 x (70 x 500) = 525,000 Btu/hr. So if you install multiple tankless heaters that can produce 525,000 btu/hr for this example your good to go..

But They Are Giving You More Help In Growing Your Business

@ May 29, 2013 8:29 PM in Viessmann Partner Program Annual Awards

Final Annual Awards Trip – Summer 2013

April 29, 2013

This summer, our 2012 Annual Award winners will embark on the final Partner Program Annual Awards Trip.

Rather than simply rewarding the top nine performing Partners year after year, we've adopted a "something for everyone" approach to offer greater value to a larger number of contractors.

Last fall, we completely re-designed the Partner Program to allow Partners to spend their points on whatever they want, whenever they want – without co-payment. For example, our standard Business Support Materials can now be individually tailored with products and messages targeting specific groups of potential customers, and eligible items are now reimbursed at 100% rather than 75%, provided the Partner has accumulated enough points.

We've also introduced a new line of promotional items, partnered with popular brands to bring you high-quality apparel and added a wide selection of gift cards from leading retailers.

We're truly excited about these new Partner Program features, and the dramatic increase in Partner Point claims and redemptions shows us that many Partners are too.

We congratulate all of our past winners for their outstanding achievements and exceptional commitment to Viessmann. We sincerely appreciate their ongoing support and look forward to working with them, and all of our valued Partners, for many years to come.

Please contact us at 1-800-505-1223 or partner-program@viessmann.com if you have any questions about these changes or any other aspects of the Partner Program.