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Chris

Chris

Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 8, 2014

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Home Run

@ July 8, 2014 8:37 AM in Getting into mod/con business

Gordy hit the home run in the bottom of the ninth on a 2 strike count for the win. Here's the Viessmann chart Gordy refer's to.

BC, let me tell you a little about Viessmann. If anything they are conservative in what they publish. They always have been.

I so want

@ July 7, 2014 8:10 PM in Getting into mod/con business

To get into this debate more but you're stuck on AFUE. How many conventional fixed rate boilers do you know that run 140 supply 120 return constantly? The test is flawed which in turn makes your argument flawed.

It Could Be Said

@ July 7, 2014 2:28 PM in Getting into mod/con business

That that dumb fixed speed primary/boiler pump is the reason for short cycling not the actual condensing boiler itself. Could also be said that's the reason most condensing boiler don't condense.

There is no Coffee Break.

Sure I do

@ July 7, 2014 2:19 PM in Getting into mod/con business

The structures heat loss changes every day. I'm a smart modulating boiler I can adapt to it. You're a fixed rate boiler - You don't stop firing until you make high limit.

Does all your created energy (btu/hr) go on a coffee break and wait for the horn to blow to get back to work?

So What Is

@ July 7, 2014 2:12 PM in Getting into mod/con business

70% of 100,00 btu/hr = 70,000 btu/hr used
90% of 30,000 btu/hr = 27,000 btu/hr used

So where does that extra gap of 43,000 btu/hr you used an I didn't come into the equation?

There's A Lot

@ July 7, 2014 1:47 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Of misconception here. Let's start with the let's compare AFUE to AFUE to come up with savings. Simply cannot do that alone. I know its a number that can be easily plugged into a formula but its also an unfair equation.

When we talk about comparing a traditional pin-style boiler vs a condensing boiler we aren't being fair with our terminology. We should be comparing a FIXED Rate boiler vs a modulating boiler. Similar to when we compare a fixed speed pump to a variable speed pump.

The other factor that is always left when I see these AFUE equations and the one rarely talked about is condensate. We know the Fixed Rate Boiler isn't able to capture condensate. Heck we protect them from it. So in a condensing boiler, for every one gallon of condensate we do capture (roughly 8,000 btu/hr) we've turned lost energy (btu/hr) from the fixed rate boiler to usable engery that the consumer paid for. This has to be a factor when comparing.

Modulation Rate - While that fixed rate boiler is stomping on the gas peddle in late Oct, Nov,Dec then again in Mar, Apr our condensing boiler is just cruising along like as if you turned on cruise control in your car. It's reacting to the hills. As we we head up one she gives us more btu/hr as we coast down, she lighten's up on the btu/hr. Where's that in the AFUE equation?

Now onto the maintenance argument...Why is it that as consumers we're ok with heading down to our local jiffy lubes or fav local garage 4 times a year for an oil change but as soon as the word preventative maintenance is used with a condensing boiler , the sky opens up and falls on us? Come on, the consumer wants longevity and that comes at the same price tag as his 4 oil changes a year. Heck, people throw cars out like they are candy for god sake. - The consumer didn't create this argument. The trade created it against themselves and now the consumer reads it and then uses against them! Its the trade shooting themselves in the foot!

I could go on and on with this subject, but let's digest some of this for a bit...Happy Monday!

Why

@ July 4, 2014 8:20 AM in Can this boiler leak be fixed? (homeowner w/ pictures)

Would you want to fix it? ITS 50YRS OLD!!!! It's done, lived a good life and served its purpose. Time for a new boiler.

Steam Dr

@ July 4, 2014 7:55 AM in Getting into mod/con business

I'm in your market and could arrange for a nice sit down with Viessmann as soon as this upcoming week. I know that the VitoMobile will be touring your market the week of 7/14. Factory is in RI and all training is free. The next round of classed for Vitodens is at the end of the month. Just click on the link for registration and seminar schedule.

http://www.viessmann-us.com/en/About_Viessmann/Academy.html

Viessmann is serviced in your market by a Factory Rep not a rep agency so your relationship is direct with the factory and the wholesaler. Generally, Viessmann isn't sold on the "sales pitch" but rather from the technical side. Its a system approach not just a boiler approach. Feel free to drop me an email if you'd like.

Yes

@ July 2, 2014 6:10 PM in New gas boiler sizing

Can can vent the Vitodens Sidewall in 2" provided as Steam said, you meet all the vent requirements. Viessmann does not allow PVC venting so PolyProp is the most cost effective way to go. The cost is minimal when using 2".

The NCB-180 is only 150,000 btu/hr for domestic hot water. Generally incoming ground temp in the winter is 50 and you want a set point/target temp of 120 so:

150,000/ (70X500) = 4.28GPM. Will that be appropriate enough for your DHW needs?

The btu/hr output ratings on the Navien are for domestic hot water not heating. The on board pump for heating in the NCB can move roughly 5gpm so there needs to be some math done to make sure its adequate to handle your heating needs based off that heat loss. Navien prefers the use of the NCB-240 in the Northeast because of the heating loads, that unit is capable of providing a little more muscle as its 199,000 btu/hr for DHW and you could get 120,000 btu/hr heating out of it. But keep in mind that is not 120,000 btu/hr of 180 degree water.

Until someone does all the math we are all just giving basic information based on a scenario and past experience rather then specific to your project.

Vitodens Venting

@ July 2, 2014 3:18 PM in New gas boiler sizing

You'd simply drop a 2" Duravent PolyPro Flex or Centrotherm InnoFlue Flex down the chimney. Fresh air can be take from the side or room dependent if you're able.

You can run an Indirect off all of them. Don't know what your DHW need is. You may be able to just add on the CombiPlus DHW unit to the Vitodens 100 and go if 3.5gpm satisfies your need.

You might even want to take a look at the Vitodens 222F while the cost of the unit is considerably more there is NO LABOR for the installation of the Indirect plus it has a lower bottom end at 19,000 btu/hr. Click on the link below...

http://www.vitoteam.com/Pages/eng/sub/submittal.php?b1=B2TA-35&a1=LLH-80&

I'm Not

@ July 2, 2014 9:07 AM in New gas boiler sizing

Just looking for installers to throw work at. I would never recommend a Viessmann job to an installer that is not a Viessmann Partner unless he was becoming a Viessmann partner.

I'm looking for quality contractors that would be interested in the product line that want to differ themselves from their competition and embrace a product line that gives them a boiler that pretty much nobody in that market is offering. Its gives the opportunity to sell rather then sell against another price for the same boiler.

I have a branch in Brunswick.

Wales

@ July 1, 2014 9:52 PM in New gas boiler sizing

Is not the rep. If I had a unit not working I'd fix it myself. Been dealing with them since they came to the US. Looking for installers in NJ that might be interested in the boiler line but haven't had the opportunity.

Because

@ July 1, 2014 9:12 PM in New gas boiler sizing

I'm looking to find forward thinking installers in NJ market that might be interested in taking a look at Viessmann.

Snowmelt

@ July 1, 2014 8:08 PM in New gas boiler sizing

You're in NJ right? Where abouts? Curious...

Guess You Missed The Entire Point

@ July 1, 2014 3:27 PM in Converting Oil to Gas

Too and I'm totally right, not might be.

It is our job to inform the consumer with ALL THE INFORMATION not just the parts we want to. Its also not up to the contractor to make the decision for the customer.

I clearly said, a gas conversion burner would work quite well when installed and setup correctly did I not?

Why do contractors hide from telling the consumer the entire TRUTH? Maybe that little bit of extra honesty would get you that big thank you for watching out for me.

As for contractors are the brains, well for every 1 brain I can show you 20 that seem to have lost theirs.

First Off

@ July 1, 2014 12:16 PM in Converting Oil to Gas

I have a hard time grasping that Weil said it's ok to convert which is the total opposite of their stance in the installation manual. If true that would open them up to full liability if said conversation happened.

Will a conversion burner work. Yes and quite well when installed and set up properly.

Here's my issue and something that most contractors/installers seem to leave out of the picture and fail to inform the homeowner of.

1. Once you convert you have voided any warranty remaining on the boiler itself.

2. Seems like everyone forgets about the homeowners insurance company. God forbid something happen and since that boiler in now put into service in an unauthorized manner as per the installation manual, how does the home owners insurance feel about that?

Just two simple questions that should be asked by all contractors to the homeowner so that they can make the right decision as to or not to convert.

Again, conversion burners work very well and the issue is not about that, it's about the liability and providing the consumer the proper information to make the decision they feel is the right one.

To High?

@ July 1, 2014 11:56 AM in New gas boiler sizing

Are you sure the price is too high or is that your budget is to low for a high efficiency system? I don't shop at a Mercedes dealership knowing my wallet only carries the affordability of a Ford or Chevy.

It is not the contractor's job to make the best affordable to you, it's up to you to get the best system you can for the budget you have.

You should be divulging that up front to potential bidders so that you're not wasting their time and they could then provide you a quote based on your budget. There is also nothing wrong with getting multiple quotes from the same contractor for multiple options and make your choice from there.

Availability

@ June 29, 2014 11:13 AM in Typical venting for high-efficiency wall-hung boilers?

Centrotherm is nothing new. Been dealing with them for 4 years now. Just because
you've had an experience from the uninformed and what seems like suppliers that
are not keeping up with advances in the industry isn't the product or Centrotherms issue.

Here's where that additonal cost makes sense. I'm giving Mr and Mrs Homeowner a UL
Certified and tested venting product not a vent system that is installed with material that
moves waste into a sewer or septic system. Secondary Mr and Mrs Homeowner I'm
providing a venting system that carries a 10yr warranty.

OMG, SMH, Are You Serious

@ June 18, 2014 3:48 PM in 95% Efficient Condensing Replacement Boiler

The on board pump can only move 5gpm across the Navien HX. So what has to change to get the btu/hr out of the boiler when not piped pri'/sec.....THE DELTA-T.. How many fin-tube and even cast iron systems you see out there running on a

120,000/500/5 = 48 Degree Delta-T... Zero, zippo, nodda!

Its not the boiler that is delivering the 120,000 btu/hr when piped primary secondary and you can take that to the bank!

Where Are You Located

@ June 14, 2014 3:29 PM in Typical venting for high-efficiency wall-hung boilers?

Is the question that needs to be asked. Cause if you live in the 5 Boroughs of NYC come Sept 1, you cannot vent ANY piece of equipment with PVC regardless of what the install manual says.

There are also a few municipalities out in LI that already will not allow it. It's a slowly changing thing so I'd make sure that there are no changes being made to the building code in your, city, town or village.

Its Funny How

@ May 21, 2014 7:38 PM in Help diagnosing hydro air problems....

the internet is so vast but yet such a small place. The OP has a contractor, one of the best around in his market. Think I'll leave this one alone, we all have better things to do with our time.

You Have Plenty of Pump

@ May 21, 2014 6:41 PM in Help diagnosing hydro air problems....

Probably too much pump. That's why I asked and you still haven't answered. What is the supply water temp leaving the zone and what is the return water temp coming back.
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