Security Seal Facebook Twitter GooglePlus Pinterest Newsletter Sign-up
The Wall


Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 8, 2014

Contact User

Recent Posts


@ December 31, 2009 7:23 PM in adding baseboard

Thanks for the post. Interesting. I'd like to get my hands on a sample.


@ December 31, 2009 7:14 PM in Modifying Takagi Jr to handle radiant heat

Gordy you make a great comparision. Your absolutely correct. You just made a water heater. I just posted on another thread about how I dislike water heaters for radiant unless a very small load. Happy new year.

Quick Question

@ December 31, 2009 7:07 PM in Underfloor radient off BB return

If the original baseboard heated the home with 180 degree water at design then why will it not heat the space with a mod/con if your curve starts at 180 degree water? Is the question, I am no longer using 180 degree water as my design water temp? Is the family room on its own zone? Who's mod/con?

One of My Points

@ December 30, 2009 9:27 PM in sizing a water heater for radiant heat

You have very limited control over the system.

You Can Do

@ December 30, 2009 9:26 PM in sizing a water heater for radiant heat

Whatever you want. It's your customer. I would think that someone of your caliber would offer them choices and your best professional opinion.

That is a no no

@ December 30, 2009 9:20 PM in Is the Burnham MPO 147 "adjustable"?

In a nutshell NO....They now make a MPO-115....

Minimum Water Temp

@ December 30, 2009 9:18 PM in viessmann

The iron can handle a minimum water temp  of 120 without the injector that is put in at the factory when purchased with Vitotroinic Control. Just make sure you don;t condense the chimminey. Can't tell you where high limit needs to be. I don;t know the heat loss of each zone or the emitters. Are you zoning the boiler with priority? If so, whose zone controls. If your going to use a Taco just make sure it's and EXP version and you can add the PC701 for boiler reset down the line.

Reset a Pain?

@ December 29, 2009 6:35 PM in sizing a water heater for radiant heat

Reset can only be a pain for 2 reasons. The first being you have the wrong curve set. The second, there is not enough emmitters to get the btu's you need out. I can fathom that your only choice is to manually reset the system yourself. If so, then you must not have that much faith in the contractors in your area or have had some bad experiences and are fed up.


@ December 29, 2009 5:38 PM in sizing a water heater for radiant heat

Actually I believe system efficiency is in many ways much more important than the heating plants efficiency. It's great that a piece of equipment makes energy at a given AFUE but what you do with that energy you just paid to make has much more impact on your fuel bill. I don't believe I ever used any ratings in my previous posts. So without using them, here are a few of my reasons.

A water heater is going to make the same amount of btu's every day regardless of the outdoor temperature which changes a structures heat loss on a daily basis. A water heater is always going to maintain a tank temperature regardless if there is a  call for heat or domestic hot water. With a water heater I am stuck with trying to use btu's that I really didn't need to be made in the first place. So, if I can't use the btu's I just paid for then what good was it to make them. I know, to burn some of the money I was trying to save.

Hi Alan

@ December 29, 2009 5:18 PM in sizing a water heater for radiant heat

Yes I have used a water heater for a very small radiant load once. Was an basement turned into an apartment. The load was like 10,000 btu's. Used a Nat Gas Power Vent. Used a flat plate for the radiant and the heater for the domestic. It actually worked out great for the application
In this gentlemans post he used 35,000 btu's. To me this is not a small load and this application should not use a water heater. The heat loss of my 2,000 sqft house is just about 35,000 btus. I for one can understand budget constraints but if you can't affored today atleast design and set it up for tomorrow. Water heaters are cheap and I don't see any reason why he couldn't temporarily use it until he can afford a mod con. If his budget is not the issue then he should atleast make a decision based on all the information he can get.

Happy New Year

Hate to Say

@ December 29, 2009 11:15 AM in Modifying Takagi Jr to handle radiant heat

But it is what it is. Your way out is a storage/buffer tank. Have the water heater supply the tank and draw from the tank for the radiant. You then could use a aquastat to turn on a pump when the tank needs to be satisfied. Funny thing is by the time you add up all the extra cost ontop of the orginal cost of the Takagi you probably could have purchased a mod/con boiler that is made to do the job. 

Sounds Like You Have

@ December 28, 2009 6:43 PM in sizing a water heater for radiant heat

A great opportunity to sell some solar. Find the itch because you have a nich opportunity. With the ability to offer a 30% tax credit and you can do both domestic and the radiant.

I'll keep a lookout

@ December 28, 2009 6:32 PM in Viessmann Boiler

On the next round of trade shows. The WB2B-35 (31-126 btu) can vent out to 115' combined length. The WB2B-45 (60-160 btu) and WB2B-60 (60-212 btu) upto 98' with 3" and 148' with 4". The WB2B 80 (104-285) and the WB2B-105 (104-370) 131' on 4".

Your right on track with what I meant by hybrid venting. I didn't see anywhere in the IBC manual that was on their web site where you could take fresh air horizontally and exhaust vertically nor did I see where you could use combustion air from the mechnical room. Maybe the manual there is old and not up to date.

I found the boiler very interesting and will give them a call tomorrow to get a complete manual and ask some questions. I've never come across one in my market. I'm always interested in products that are different from my competition so the price wars don't dictate. Too many wholesalers in my market are giving away the mod cons they sell and that is one of the many reasons I sell Viessmann. I'm the only wholesaler in Orange County NY that has it in stock, knows the line and it gives my trade guys a chance to actually sell a product on the product versus price. It gives them the opportunity to make a few extra bucks.

One of the things that I have picked up on in the last 6 months is the lack of knowledgable contractors in my market have.  I don't mean mechanically I mean hydronically. I have some great guys that install radiant, panel rads, condensing boilers, the nitch stuff. They kill these guys that are slinging other brands. The reason is that most homeowners are really not that knowledgeable. They rely on the contractor to give them the correct information to make a sound decision.  Once my guys sit down with them, do a heat loss (the others don't), explain what they would like to install and why, the homeowner begins asking the other contractors bidding the same job questions concerning their boiler and installation. What we are seeing is that its not the boiler that is getting the job its the knowledge of my contractors that are installing Viessmann.

It just seems that everyone is tossing around mod cons like they are 3 section oil boilers with coils. Cut out, put in, get paid, walk away and there are some wholesalers that are selling them the same way.
Are you trying to get into Rhode Island or Waterloo? I'm asking because once the dust settles are the holidays I plan on putting together a bunch of guys to go to Viessmann RI. They will customize a class for us so let me know if you'd like to go. You are more than welcome. Once I get feedback from my guys on what type of class I could let you know. You can drop me an e-mail anytime.

You anwsered Your Own Question

@ December 28, 2009 1:51 PM in sizing a water heater for radiant heat

I size all equipment based on heat loss. If your loss is 35,000 then you need a heating plant that will make 35,000. Personally, I'm not a fan of a water heaters for radiant applications. Heaters are very inefficient, only have a life span of between 6 and 10 years and limit me in controlling a complete heating system. I only need those 35,000 btu's when it is zero outside. I have a question for you.. If you were purchasing a new BMW would you choose the cloth interior? The comfort and efficiency of radiant heat is in my opinion the BMW and the water heater the cloth interior in this case. 

The Triangle

@ December 28, 2009 11:53 AM in Small boiler requirement

Control does have 0-10 OV on the terminal strip for external demand. I may be wrong but I believe you would be giving up the boilers control and have to come up with your own control for modulation and phone access. Contact that distributor they should be able to give you the anwser.

Hybrid System

@ December 28, 2009 11:15 AM in Decisions, Knight, TT or EVO a tough choice

Okay. Now that I understand your application. How about a small mod/con for the warmer months of the heating season when your btu output requirement  and water temps are less so you can take advantage of the condensing features of the boiler and have the Weil fire on those days that are close to design and you need that little extra push. Hybrid type systems are nothing new to small light commerical applications and will give you a nice system.

Type of Boiler

@ December 28, 2009 9:44 AM in Small boiler requirement

I believe in a previous thread you stated that you were using a Viessmann Vitodens 100. You may want to look at using the small Vitodens 200. Since this is a vacation home and panel rads also use the Vitotrol 300. It will give you day and nightime temp, DHW Temp, holiday program and part and energy-savings features. It will also allow for switching times for your heating circult, DWH tank and a recirc pump if you choose to use one. I would stick with an indirect. You already have a high efficient piece of equipment making the energy why make more energy with electricity. I would also get the phone module. Nothing better than calling up the boiler on your way up and having the house and domestic hot water ready to go when you get there.

Book For Radiant

@ December 28, 2009 7:08 AM in Newbie here with some questions

If both of you would like a Wirsbo CDAM (the radiant bible) send me an e-mail with your addresses and I would be happy to send it. While it is put out by Uponor it has everything in it concerning radiant. I just recevied from my darling wife for Christmas, the second edition of Modern Hydronic Heating if you want to drop a couple hundred bucks its a winner.

How about Some

@ December 28, 2009 6:59 AM in Heat for the kitchen, halls, staircase

Radiant Panel Baseboard under the kitchen cabinets. I sent you some info on panel rads in your previous threads. The panel board should fit nicley right under those cabinets, you can keep with the 3/8 pex and trv's.


@ December 28, 2009 6:46 AM in Viessmann Boiler

The control will give you indoor temp feedback for 1 heating circut. Yes it does have influence in how the control processes the heating curve. The boiler will look at both the outdoor sensor and the indoor feedback and run the appropriate heating curver to satifies the demand (temp) set on the Vitotrol.  Temperature setpoint (therm setting) has an influence. The the boiler will continually change the water temp. Say it's running for a room setpoint of 70. The boiler is running 105 degree water that day. The wife decideds shes a little chilly so bumps it up to 72. The boiler will increase it's heating curve. Same goes the other way. Here is some info attached.

Piece of Advice

@ December 27, 2009 5:41 PM in Newbie here with some questions

Welcome to the site. All the major manufactures of radiant heat products have plenty of lit on their web sites. I am one of those are totally against internet sites and homeowners installing heating systems without at the minimum working with a qualified contractor.

Internet sites give you the basic principles. They give you just enough information to purchase the products they sell. There are basic formulas for the supplies you need based on square footage and these sites are great for giving you that tool. Other than that, I feel you get smoke and mirrors.  They really have nothing more to offer. May I asked what you mean by staple up? Who would be doing the radiant heat loss and design? Who would be providing you a control strategy? How would you zone? Who would be balancing the system after it was installed? Who would you call on a cold winters night when you needed service?

The best piece of advice I could give you is to call a few of the local plumbing and heating supply houses in your area. Find out what lines of radiant they carry. Ask them for their recommendations on contractors. Talk with those contractors and see if they will work with you if your budget is tight. Installing the tubing and/or transfer plates is really not that hard but when it comes to the heat loss and design I would work with a professional.


@ December 27, 2009 5:26 PM in Decisions, Knight, TT or EVO a tough choice

Why are you installing 2 boilers? Is this going to be a redundant system or are you looking for different boilers to quote? From your post looks to me like you are designing a hybrid system. Why for such a small load?