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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on April 1, 2014

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@ September 24, 2009 7:44 PM in Myson Radiators - are they any good?

Nice pic, have you had a chance to get a look at the new boiler?  The word is not until Jan for you guys on the west coast. I'm sure you'll love the 35% drop bring it right in line with everyone else but yet offering much more than everyone else.

My advice

@ September 23, 2009 8:51 PM in Too Many Choices

Recalculate that heat loss. I don;t know what part fo the country you are in  but I'm in NY and we design for 0 and that load seems awful high compared to the sq footage you are giving. Even if I take the old fudge factor of 40btu sqft I wouldn't come up with that load. Boiler wise, I would take a look at Viessmanns new Vitodens 200. Would only need 1 boiler. Yes you would use a LLH (hydro seperator). But the boiler gives you the abilty to cut down adding other controls. The LLH also has a sensor in it that will talk to the boiler and promote condensing.
The other great feature is that the burner/gas vlv continually looks at incoming gas pressure and mixture and adjusts as those change keeping the boiler burning clean and at it's optimum efficiciency. Also, 2 yrs parts, limited lifetime on heat exchanger. No other wall hung in this country has these offerings in their boiler line. Period.

Seperator Sizing

@ September 20, 2009 7:22 PM in Hydro Seperators

Here is a piece of reading that should help you out.

Take the Vitodens

@ September 20, 2009 7:16 PM in Mod Con Annual Maint

I'm going to assume by the models you gave that you are talking about the new Vitodens 200. I'm assuming because that is the closet product that matches the model numbers you provided.
If you are comparing that boiler to the triangle its a no brainer. The Vitodens hands down. It's simple
2 yrs parts vs 1 yrs parts. Limitied lifetime warranty vs 10yr warranty.
The Vitodens 200 continually looks at incoming gas mixture and pressure to keep firing clean and at it highest efficicency. The Triangle does not do this.
The Vitodens control is multi function. Meaning you can do what you want with it. Want phone access, we can do that. Need mult water temps we can do that. Want solar, it' set up for that. Want to remote the control upstairs so you can see and control the boiler. We can do that too. The triangle, sorry but you have to start purchasing other controls.
I do have a question? What is the application? I ask because the size of the boiler I believe you have is covered by the Vitodens 100 if this is a 1 temp heating system. That boiler fits better but you do give up the control and burner/gas vlv feature.
I''ve attached the manuals to both,...Happy reading.


@ September 18, 2009 6:30 PM in Hydro Seperators

Mikey maybe this PDF file can help you out.

Low Loss Header

@ September 16, 2009 7:43 PM in Hydro Seperators

How have you been Bob. Hope all is well. I agree with you on the LLH. I would rather that than pri/sec piping. With my experience with the LLH with Viessmann the LLH promotes better condesing in the boiler than the pri/sec.

Before you make

@ September 13, 2009 7:20 PM in Old Radiators, New Boiler, and Slime & Sediment

a final decision. Take a look at Viessmann's new Vitodens 200. I am a big fan of the boiler line and most will same I'm a homer on this but just look at what this boiler will give you over the Triangle.
If you use the Vitdoens 200 you will have to use a low loss header (your hydro seperator). This gives you the seperation from the system and the boiler but there is also a sensor that gives feedback to the boiler to promote condensing without having to give up the efficency you are looking for. The boiler continually looks at incoming gas mixture and pressure adjusting accordingly as gas and pressure change allowing the boiler is to keep firing at it's highest efficiency. The control which is standard will control a high temp curve (your baseboard) plus will run 2 motorized mixing vlvs (radiators and the radiant) on 2 different curves without you having to use a secondary control as you will have to use with the Triangle. You will have to use an indirect with this boiler and the control has priorty in it.  The control is also already set up for phone access if your customer desires to purch the enable control.
The boiler has a better warranty than they triangle and you will find it is a perfect match for the application. I have attached the tech data manual and the low loss header manaul. Drop me a line if you have any other questions.

If this isn't a job

@ September 13, 2009 5:39 PM in TT-110 to p/s or not

for the New Viessmann Vitodens 200 I don't know what is. You have already picked the boiler but in this case I would look at using a Calefi Hydro Seperator.

Heat Loss for Non Insulated Slabs

@ September 8, 2009 6:18 AM in radiant heat with no insulation under slab

I've ran into this question numerous times over the years. What I have found is that a non-insulated slab, meaning no insulation under or perimter has a heat loss of just about twice the heat loss of the same slab that is insulated. Basically, if you needed 10,000 btu's for a insulated slab would need 20,000 btu's for an uninsulated slab. The extra 10K go to mother earth or bascially up the chimmney. It would be safe to say that depending on how the radiant is controlled you could possibly burn upto twice as much fuel.


@ August 29, 2009 7:49 PM in Has Anyone Else Run Into This

I took a step back and re-read the post you commented on. While I will respect your wishes I don not see the remarks in your post in mine. I did state my facts and my opinion. And I'm going to assume you are responsding to my comment that the rep was stupid and that the RPA should boot these guys and I still feel that way. You represent this industry as a man of knowledge and know how. Your articles in numerous industry magazines prove that. I'm sorry but just like you have a right to express yourself and your beliefs I have the right to express mine. If you choose to sensor because of pressure or for any other reason I have no control over that. I did not name the person I spoke with.  I only indentified the company and I feel that the guys that come here should be aware of the lack of respect they have for radiant hydronics as a science not as a sales tool and the consumer. The whole radiant industry should be aware. We are all here for the common goal of professional installation, profession design and professional product. I stated the facts in my post and my opinion. While I do not think you implied this, your wording came over as a threat and I find that very disturbing.
Best Regards,

Some of your comments

@ August 28, 2009 8:56 PM in Has Anyone Else Run Into This

are not true in this fact. I called warmboard with the job name and number. I spoke to the actual person that was on this job. Warmboard should be ashamed of how they handled this job and the radiant panel assoication should boot them.
They did no heat loss. Period. Here is where I have a problem and anyone with any experience in radiant would have picked this out. Across the south side of this home that sits on a lake is 960 sqft. This consists of an open area consisting of a living room, kitchen and dining room with a load of glass. For starters, no radiant installer in his right mind would design any system for this area without a heat loss. Why? This type  of areas requires some type of set point control with floor sensors. Mr Warmboard states that there board (and this comes from them) will put out 30 btu's sqft feet at 110 degree water. We have to take out 60 sqft of island and cabinet area so that leaves us with 900 sqft. So they are telling me I will get 27,000 btus out of that floor at 110 degrees. The HEAT LOSS of that area is 15,000...NOW WHAT! I ran this area through wirsbo's program and used a suspended panel and litghtweight pour as this was as close as I could get for 12" cc that warmboard says this job is.  I come up with 120 degree water temp giving me a 76 degree surface temp to overcome the heat loss. Here's the other thing that blows my mind. I would have even loops thought this floor. Warmboards design has loop lenghts all over the place. Makes no sense for a room 12"cc should be even loop lengths.  I could go on and on after doing this heat loss and I would be more than happy to share the loss, the plan of the house and warmboards design. I have all of them in PDF format. This is a joke. They prey on sales. Do crappy designs. Yes they recommended a boiler. The stupid rep I was talking to even asked me if I needed a boiler recommendation for this job. I told him no thank you becuase a boiler that will producr 199,000 btu's is enough to do this house and the house next door.
Companies that do business like this do not have the radiant industries best interest in their stable only their own.
I;ve been doing radiant since 1989 and have never been so appauled.

As I stated in a Previous

@ August 28, 2009 8:35 PM in Laars Neotherm 285...what do you think?

thread about this job. Take a look at the Viessmann Vitodens. It will give you everything you need for this job and a better warranty. Viessmann has a great commerical program where they can take your customers last years fuel bills and give them the savings they can give them with their boiler. The boiler has alot to offer your customer.

Radiant vs Forced Hot Air

@ August 27, 2009 8:38 PM in solar assisted radiant floor vs. forced air efficiency savings comparison

The anwser to your question is in a heat loss. You need 35% less energy to heat a space radiantly versus any other type of hydronic/forced air system. There are many reasons for this. First is infiltration. Since their is very little to no convection in radiant you have slowed down the rate that btu's leave the space unlike baseboard or forced hot air which live on convection. Secondly, in radiant we keep the heat where it's needed. Where you are at your comfort level. In the other systems we stack the ceiling with higher temps leaving cooler temps at our comfort level. Lastly, basic rule of thumb for savings. For every 3 degrees I can run a heating system below 180 degrees I can save 1 percent of fuel. What's the average radiant system run at compared to baseboard? I realize you cannot use this formula with hot air (unless your doing hydro-air) but the heat loss tells it all. It means a smaller heating plant which a potential customer can see thus meaning burning less fuel. 

What Do You Think of This?

@ August 27, 2009 8:19 PM in Has Anyone Else Run Into This

I think I have come up with a way to overcome the lack of a heat loss being done on this project with the design and tubing already layed out. Would like some input of you thoughts to this. I am going to do a heat loss but use this formula to give myself a starting water temp as I do not have nor does this mfg have software on their web site for me to use.
The manufacture states that the max btu output of their product will put out 30btus a sqft at 110 degree water. So I'm going to try this.
Ti-To = xx times R-Value = Btu's sqft.
Ti equals the 110 degree water temp the manufacture states their product will put out. To equals the surface temp I want. R-value equals the r-value of the finished floor.
Let's say my room is 300 sqft. The heat loss is 5,000 btu. Here is what I would come up with by the formula I have come up with.
110 degree water temp minus 75 degree surface temp = 35 times .72 (r-value of bamboo floor) = 25.2 btus sqft times 300 = 7,560 btu's the floor will put out at my design temp. So it's too much so I plug in 100 degree water into the formula and do the math and come up with 5,400 btu's. This gives me a starting point for the room.
I'll do this throughout the house. My biggest problem is that this manufacture has some really uneven loop lengths across the 3 manifolds. I mean some loops 150 and others 250 across each manifold. I'm afraid that if I don't get close this job will be a balancing nightmare and very uncomfotable and non efficicent for the customer. We usually add in the price of the job for 3 callbacks to tweak out the system through the 1st heating season and make the customer aware that it takes a full heating season to really tweak it out. Everyone has a different way of living and comfort level. I'm afraid with this job it may end up being quite a more visits if we don't get close on the loss from the start and get my flow rates in order to balance the manifolds out.
Does anyone feel that this formula won't work or have you come up with a better one when you have run into a job like this.

I have software

@ August 26, 2009 6:14 AM in Has Anyone Else Run Into This

Could calculate in on paper also..What I need from that manufacturer is the output that that product is going to give me at xxx number of degrees at design temp. I don't think it is fair that a radiant manufacturer sells the homeowner the product direct and then leaves it up the contractor to try and figure out whether it is going to work based on the heat loss and floor coverings.
This does 2 things...The first, the homeowner is under the impression that this company did everything for him so it should work. Secondly, When we put a disclaimer in the quote it makes us look like we don't know what we are doing when in fact we do and are just protecting ourselves from an issue that may be caused by the radiant mfg not doing a heat-loss prior to designing a layout.
It's basic hydronic fundemental 101. DO A HEAT LOSS.

May I be the 1st to give

@ August 25, 2009 9:27 PM in PDF files will now work.

you a big thank you.

You are Way off base but you have a right

@ August 25, 2009 9:18 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor reset

to your opinion.
My boiler will qualify for the full 1,500 tax credit..Remember the tax credit is 30% of the job upto the 1,500 bucks...Please give us the actual tax credit on the Navien..won't be the full 1,500 bucks unless your telling us your fudging invoices.
Based on his location the RV will only qualify for a 500.00 rebate from his local utility the mod/con 1,000.00 and if he installed an indirect another 300.00 that's a total of 2,800.00...So your telling me it is in the best interest of the customer to give up $2,300 compared to less money with the system you recommend based on your thought that the mod/con will only last x amount of yrs. 
Ok...We are in 2009....Did you know by the yr 2015 all boilers sold in the US must have some type of out-door compensation? Did you know that beginning next yr Burnham will be implementing the new ES2 control into all their boilers. My point is..No matter what product you purchased there are going to be changes and sooner then we think.

Has Anyone Else Run Into This

@ August 25, 2009 8:45 PM in Has Anyone Else Run Into This

I was really disappointed today concering a certain radiant manufacturer. I had my best customer today send me an e-mail concerning a job that we had previously spoke about that we were called upon to quote.
He went to the job and the customer already had  a certain manufacture design the radiant layout. The warm board and tubing were installed. After leaving the job and then calling me I told him to ask the homeowner to e-mail him all the specs and heat loss that he was given by the radiant manufacture so we could size a boiler and I could give him manifolds, etc. I really needed the loss so I could size a boiler. The customer wanted to use a mod/con that modulate between 55,000 and 199,00 btus and the radiant manufacture was aware of this. I questions the boiler size do to the application compared to the sqft of the home.
After getting the specs done by the manufacturer I started scratching my head. Why?  There was no heat loss. Just a layout for the tubing with loop lengths, manifolds and zones. So, as diligent as I am,  there was a 800 number and the person at this manufacturer who did the layout with a job number. So I called. I spoke with the person that went out to the job. I figured I would get the heat loss from the source vs getting it from the homeowner.
Well was I surprised. I explained to this person who I was, why I was calling, gave him the job number. He pulled it up and new the job to the tee. So I told him, the only info I received was what I spoke of above and that I needed the heat loss to size the boiler for the job...He states......WE DID NOT DO A HEAT LOSS. WE JUST DID THE LAYOUT. Now, the print provided has no spacing of the tubing so of course my next question was. HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THE APPROPRIATE CENTERS FOR THE JOB AND APPROPRIATE WATER TEMPS REQUIRED. His anwser...OUR WARMBOARD WILL PUT OUT WITH BETWEEN 90 AND 110 DEGREE WATER 25 TO 30 BTU'S A SQFT. I said. That's nice, but what if that out-put is not enough to overcome the heat loss. He states....THAT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY WE ONLY DO LAYOUTS. So, my next question is.....What is the floor surface temp for this job if you didn't do a heat loss? His response...FLOOR SURFACE TEMPS WILL BE BETWEEN 74 AND 85 DEGREES. Now I am shaking my head...The floor surfaces for this job are tile and bamboo. I hang up the phone because I'm not getting anywhere with these guys and I am disgusted.
This company is a member of the Radiant Panel Association, National Association of Home Builders, US Green Building Council and other associations.  How does a radiant company this big just toss out the basic fundementals of radiant heat to the wolves. Seems like they are more interested in selling product and leaving someone else to hold the bag if a system like this does not work. So I write this open letter.
Dear Mr Warmboard,
Can you please send me some software so I can calculate this poor homeowners heat loss. I need to do your job and figure out for him what water temps he needs with your product at 12" on center based on the the heat loss of the rooms your product is installed. That is the least you could do since you do not have the technical expertise in heat loss calculation but you do have the technical expertise in doing design layouts. By the way, That boiler you recommended to the homeowner...It's a little to big...But how would you know. You didn't do a heat loss...But you knew how to recommend the boiler.
That's how we got the call to look at this job...You recommended the boiler to the homeowner, the homeowner contacted them and inturn he got our name...By the way I think 199,000 btus in a radiant application is a little to big for a house of 4,500 sqft...You might ask how I came up with that....From you.....House is all radiant.....4,5000 sqft times the 30 btu's a sqft (that's what you told me your product max btu ouput is) = 135,000 btus....
PS. Be prepared for a phone call from one angry homeowner. We are stating on our quote that we do not guarantee that the radiant heat will heat the space to overcome the required heat loss of the structure. But don't worry we will help this guy out if you have to go back a 3 or 4  times over the heat season to balance it out. We just had to put the same disclaimer as you.

I feel the site

@ August 25, 2009 7:47 PM in What Do You Guy`s Think?

has lost the personal touch we had prior. I don't like the RSS feed because it doesn't give me the subject of the topic the poster is writing from. I don't like the fact that I have to click on every thread to see where it came from. It would be fine if I only subscribed to one Forum but I subscribe to multiple forums and it's a pain. It was also nice to get the reply to your e-mail. I find that was much better. It was much easier to reply. I haven't even touched the PDF file issue which I have read that Dan is working on. Site seems to have lost the personal touch all us regulars had speaking with each other.

Dan, How come when

@ August 25, 2009 7:41 PM in Dan, How come when

you type paragraphs here the post ends up like this.
New paragraph,
Another new paragraph
And another
And another

Who installed the boiler

@ August 25, 2009 7:38 PM in Anyone familier with using a Vitodens 200 with external DHW pump?

you or the plumber? I take it you were there to wire the boiler up.

A new take based on your reply

@ August 25, 2009 7:25 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor reset

First let me start with Tony's recommendation. Tony, by the time you line the chimmney for the ES2 and add the out-door reset card you spent more money then the mod/con. For the homeowner.
I totally understand your thought process. While I'm in NY I'm  also originally from New England and understand what you are talking about. Let's start fresh and back to basics concerning your project and question.
I understand that you have done the heat loss but I have another question. Have you compared the heat loss of each room to the max out-put of the exisiting heat emiiters in each room? You need to. Here is why.
Let's take a room with baseboard in it. What's the loss of that room? Let's say it's 4,800 btus. That means you would need roughly 8 foot of fin-tube baseboard (Brands of residential baseboard put out between 590 and 600 btus per sqft.) to heat the room with 180 degree water when it is 0 outside.  How many days is it zero? Your only about 100 or less miles from me and I've lived in CT so I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and give you 7 days.
Now that room has a total of 12 feet of baseboard because back in the day someone decided to wrap the room which is very common. The total btu's I can get out of 12 feet of baseboard with 180 degree water temp is roughly 7,000 btus. But I don't need 7,000 btu's to heat that space ever. So I can lower my water temp to match the btu required by the heat loss to heat the space when it is zero outside.  This is where the mod/con plays a better role then the cast iron boiler. The mod/con is set up to do this. The cast iron boiler is not. You have to start adding controls that are not generally controls from the boiler manufacture but from a third party or you have to order cards to plug into boiler mfgs controls. With the mod/con you are dealing with a complete system that is ready to go, with the cast iron you are not.
If you take a look at the Viessmann Vitodens 100 which is perfect for this application. The boiler offers you the 95% afue you need for the tax credit/rebates,  the outdoor reset you need and the simplicity of not doing primary secondary piping. It also has a much better warranty than the Triangle or any other boiler you listed here. It has a 2 yrs parts (the cast iron guys 1 yr) and limited lifetime on the heat exchanger (just like the cast iron guys).  We do not discuss pricing here but it would be wise to look into this boiler.  Probably comes pretty close to that ES2 boiler once you add the liner, extra card and extra labor to install that liner and the ES2 does not qualify for the tax credit.
Best of Luck