Joined on December 29, 2008
Last Post on December 11, 2013
@ August 12, 2009 3:48 PM in Welcome!to climb over that old wall but I made it. Thanks for the help getting logged in Dan. New site looks great. You deserve a big A+
@ August 3, 2009 8:52 PM in Really Confused3-pass boiler. Take a look at Biasi www.qhtiinc.com It's an italian 3-pass sold a few of them. It's actually a nice little boiler. Look at the B10 Series that's their introductory 3-pass then you step up to the SG Series.
@ August 3, 2009 8:45 PM in Really Confusedcan't give you an honest answer to your question concerning boiler size without seeing the job. The 2 rooms you speak about that are 200 sqft require based on my estimation 5,000 btus or 8.47 (9') of baseboard. If you give me then actual room dimensons with outside walls, windows, ceiling height, what's above, what's below and wall R-Value I could give you an honest answer based on your information only concerning those 2 rooms. Can you tell me how many sqft your basement is? What are the heat emitters in the rest of the house. Can you take a picture of one of them and post?
@ August 3, 2009 6:32 PM in how can I calculate BTU sizing of Arco cast iron radiators by AmSee the post totally confused. That will confuse you. Go to http://www.burnham.com/tool_box.htm see if this can help you out.
@ August 3, 2009 5:55 PM in Really ConfusedCan't say much else. There comes a time where your experience out weighs the book and in this case that's exactly what I mean. I can see for new construction when you are on the ground floor desgining a system but on a replacement experience is what counts.
@ August 3, 2009 5:51 PM in Really ConfusedA heat loss is important and I'm not diminishing that point. I think that sometimes people get so involved in the book way they forget what real world educational experiences bring to every contractor. If you truly want to take a "system approach" not a boiler approach you would do both the heat loss and measure the heat emitters (baseboard, radiators, etc.). The other question I would pose to those that state a heat loss is the anwser. What if I have hydro-air (Air Handler in the Attice to provided cooling and heating from a zone off the boiler). Do I use the heat loss or the btu out-put of that air handler. See, hydro air tends to oversize a heating system
@ August 3, 2009 5:45 PM in Really ConfusedAn the average heat loss on a basic ranch upto 2000 sqft house is really between 40 and 50k. You may install what you are comfortable with and I will never say otherwise. It fits your business and you make a respectable living with it. God Bless. System 2000 has done a great marketing job hands down but I can do the same thing with a 83% Peerless WBV03 that a System 2000 does with a Honeywell aquatrol at less the cost
@ August 3, 2009 2:55 PM in Really ConfusedYou get a phone call for an estimate on a boiler. You get there and there is this old 1950's Amercian Standard Oil Boiler. You walk around the house getting your room, window, outside walls etc and do the heat loss. You get a heat loss of 45,000. That is the average heat loss here in my area. Now I come to that same job. I measure the baseboard and come up with 150'. That boards total max out-put is 88,500 btus'. What American Pin-Style Oil boiler are you going to use that won't be oversized? Your best bet is probably a MPO84 or Vitorond 100 VR1-22 or Buderus G11528. You have no choice but to use a 3-pass boiler in this case if you don't want to be oversized. Now we get back to my point. A heat loss is useless in this case unless you are doing both the loss and measuring the heat emitters if you want to overcome an over-sized boiler. In my case atleast I can come closer to matching the system load then you can. So, just as measuring my emitters may have a glitch so does your heat loss. If we want to have an absolutely non-oversized system then we have to take a system approach not a boiler approach. I don't want to come across that I'm into bad boiler sizing because I'm not. If anything I'm a firm believer in a system approach but not every homeowner has the cash to do it. If I had it my way every American pin-style boiler and those with tankless coils (coming sooner then you think) would be abolished.
@ August 3, 2009 11:02 AM in Really ConfusedI will say I PREFER a heat loss but in the real world it doesn't happen. You can lead the horse to the water but you can't make him drink it. I will put the same question to you. What's the worse poison? Measure the radiation or take the label rating off the boiler? Your example above is exactly 100 percent correct when a mod/con boiler and/or outdoor reset is used and I stated that in my above post. I don't believe it is a poor practice in the aspect that I've had contractors go to another supply house and buy a boiler because I wanted them to go back and do a loss. They just don't care. They want to get paid and unfortunatly in the real world that is what's out there. You have to do the best you can with what you can and what information is available to you. Do you ask all your wholesalers for a heat loss/radiant design before you sell them the material? I doubt it. Would you not sell the material or would you give your best advice and make the sale?
@ August 3, 2009 10:13 AM in Really Confusedto a point. As I stated in my above post. I prefer to do a loss. While you say heat emitters have no bearing I disagree. They are the better posion then the lable off the boiler. Let's talk about what happens in the real world, everyday. Sometimes we tend to shove our heads so far into the book we forget about being street smart. Every situation has to be taken into consideration. While you may do a heat loss on every job you comes across in the real world it does not happen. Let's me ask you...Which of these 2 poisions is the best solution when you can't get heat loss information out of the contractor. Size off the lable on the boiler or measure the heat emitters? I would say measure the heat emitters. Why? Because they worked for the 20 yrs they have been installed to heat the space at 180 degree wtr temp. The boiler could have been over sized though. How many btu's are in a foot of fin tubed baseboard at 180 degrees? 590, 600? So let's say for every 100' that's 60,000 btus. How many feet of board is in the average 1,500 sqft home? 150 ft maybe that equates to 90,000 btu's. How many 90,00 btu oil boilers are out there? Ok so 200' of board that's 120,00 btus. Both situtations above call for a basic 3 section oil boiler but maybe your a 3-pass guy so I could use 2 different boilers. You say a heat loss is the only way to properly size a boiler in a replacement application and I disagree. Are you telling me that on every job you do a heat loss that you can size the boiler better then I can by measuring heat emitters? The examples above blow that theory out of the water. Now if you want to use the argument that you do a heat loss, you measure all the heat emitters and set a heating curve then I will buy the argument that a heat loss is 100 percent necessary on every job for that type of application. Out of your last 10 jobs how many do you have on a heating curve? How many boilers did you have to down fire? Please give me an example using my heat emitter theory where it wouldn't have worked on any of those last 10 jobs. Heck, give me the total amount of footage of board or edr of your last job and I will give you back a boiler size and I bet it's the same size boiler you put in. What firing rate did you leave that boiler in? I'll even make it harded for me. Give me the room sizes in sqft, no outside wall, windows or doors and I'll even do it that way. I'll even give you the heat loss but be honest with me and tell me how close or off I was. My point here is that a heat loss is not the only anwser and that while it is preferred it's only benifit on an existing job is if you want to set a heating curve.
@ August 3, 2009 9:09 AM in insullation beneath floor with radiant heatThe more r-value you have below the less inflitration you get. Sounds like your floor r-value is around a 1.5. As long as my r-value below is higher then the 1.5 you will get heat transfer. Min insulation r-value for joist heating is a the least an R-11. If your using Wirsbo's joist trak plates you insullate directly to the plate. The reason other mfs have the spacing is that they need to create convection in the joist bay to get the btu output through the floor. With joist trak plates you are actually transfering the heat absorbed by the plate directly to the floor not creating an oven in the joist bay.
@ August 3, 2009 9:03 AM in Condensing Wall Hung Oil-Boilerthat they are doning just that right now with the New Vitodens 100 and 200. Price point has come down right there with the competition. The new boilers as of today are only being released to the northeast and they are trying to break that stigma.
@ August 3, 2009 8:49 AM in Help............Wirsbo Joist track proper installation is to have the insulation in contact with the plate. The reason for a gap with other plates or no plates is that you are trying to cause as much convection in the bay as possible to get heat transfer to the floor. With the joist trak plates you don't want convection you want heat transfer directly from the plate to the floor. Here is what I would do in your case today. I would do nothing. Now is not the greatest time to try and trouble shoot a water temp issue. It's not cold enough. Unfortunatly you are going to have to wait until is gets cold out. You can add in more insulation now. If there is one thing that is the life blood of radiant it's insulation, the more the better. What does your design state that you design water temp should be? I can give you a simple formula to help trouble shoot the floor. It will atleast tell you how many btus' per sqft your giving off. TI-TO divided by RV = Btu sqft TI = Water temp in tubing TO = Floor surface temp RV = R-Value of the floor Example 120 (supply temp) - 78 degrees (floor surface temp = 42 divded by floor R-value 1.38 (5/8 sub w/3/4 oak is about a 1.38) = 30btus sqft. Now multiple that by total sqft of the floor (100 sqft) total but's = 3000 btus. Now plug in your numbers and then compare that to the heat loss. Now you can make your adjustments as needed. If you don't have the heat loss get one done. Just make sure it's a radiant loss not a hydronic loss. Another simple formula for a radiant loss. I only use this for budget quotes /basic ideas. Sqft x 25btus x .65 = Radiant Loss. It's pretty accurrate based on doing comparisons from my radiant losses with my program. Hope this helps you out. Best regards PS. I never run 1/2" tubing in joist heating applications. Run 3/8". It's a whole hell of alot easier to pull, you get the same btu out-put and it's less money. The only thing 1/2" gives you is a 50' more loop length which 90 percent of the time is not needed.
@ August 3, 2009 8:14 AM in Really ConfusedFrom each of you. I'd like to comment on some of the issue that each of you brought to the table. Mostly Tankless Coils in my area - While I am also in NY I have to agree that that market still strongly exists. I'd like to know what your plan will be when tankless coils start being phased out in 2012 and why not start phaseing them out youself now. Instead of using that tankless coil boiler why not a MPO, Vitrond, Buderus with a flat plate heat exchanger on those replacements where you cannot fit an indirect. Adding Controls to the Vitorond 100. I will agree it can get pricey when you start adding their controls. If we are talking about a basic change out on a basboard system and we are using an indirect why add viessmann controls? Why not just a Taco PC700 to the existing or added on Zone Control (I use TACO but for Argo users they have the same). Why am I measuring heat emmitters? There are 2 reasons, 1. You couldn't get a contractor in my area to do or even get you the info to do a heat loss if your life depended on it. By measuring the heat emitters atleast we can get a better idea of matching the load vs taking info from the plate on the clunker in the basement. I personally would reather do a loss but can't get it through these guys head. My last topic is something that really kills me. Back when I started in the plbg & htg wholesale industry back in the late 80's you had in the supply houses alot of really good, experienced in-side sales and counter staff. Ownership was someone you new, shook your hand, asked how about the family and was there for you, Cared about growing his business and yours. With the swallowing up of those types of supply houses by the corporate world it seems that we are destorying what was once a partnership between the contractor and the supply house. Supply houses have shrunk their staff, the old timers went or were sent on their merry way and with that went the hand shake from the owners, how's the family and that sense of a partnership. Most of you know that I manage a supply house. We have already started to plan for this up-coming heat season (hope it gets cold this year). I have made it a priority to my staff that this yrs focus will be 3-pass boilers (we stock MPO and Viessmann) and condesing wall hungs (We stock, Peerless, Burnham, Crown, Triangle, Munchkin and Viessmann). Our main focus will be Viessmann. We have no competition in our market for the line and I feel that it will get my contractors to finally sell a boiler vs just quoting a boiler. I have a slide show for the Vitrond 100, Vitodens 100 and 200 that gives them a tool to sit down with the homeowner and go over the boiler. We are also going to stop giving 1 boiler quotes. Every contractor will get a 3 boiler quote option. I;ve babbled enough. Thanks again for you comments and you all have a great week
@ August 1, 2009 8:37 PM in Condensing Wall Hung Oil-BoilerRumour mill has it that the attached boiler or a version of it is at UL right know getting tested.
@ July 31, 2009 8:15 PM in Really ConfusedI use to come to this website on a daily basis quite a few years ago before 3-pass boilers were not as popular as they are today. Since I've come back I have noticed alot of mis-information on german boilers being priced much higher then there american counterparts. This is just not true. I deal on a daily basis with Peerless, Burnham, Crown, Munchkin, Triangle and just about any other boiler line you can come up with. I don not sell Buderus but I do sell Viessmann and have been dealing with Viessmann since the late 1980's. The Vitrond 100 which I will use for my comparison is Viessmanns introductory 3-pass boiler that is the direct competition to the everyday american 3-pass. That boiler with a Beckett NX is just as or less than any american 3-pass boiler. Can I make it more money by adding controls and accessories? Of course I can but I don't use nor try to. This is a basic 3-pass that comes with the same honeywell aquastat that the american boilers do. I use the same zone control whether as everyone else whether it's Taco, Argo or whatever brand tickles your fancy. If I want out-door reset I add Taco's PC700 as I am a Taco user. Actually I can sell a VR1-22 with a beckett nx for less money then a standard Peerless WBV03, Crown TWZ100 or Burnham PV83 (now VH83) and give the customer a better boiler. What most contractors miss out in the field on replacements is actually two things: a) Doing a heat loss and b) Measuring heat emmitters. They still stick those 3 and 4 fingers in the front yard and pick the boiler or just read the lable on the old clunker in the basement. So they call there local supply house, get some in-experienced (in hydronics) counter guy and tell them they need a 3 or 4 section boiler. Now the counter guy throws out the price on that standard american pin-style boiler and since he just came back from a counter day or class he asks the contractor, "hey we stock _______(fill in the blank, Viessmann, Buderus) how many btus do you need?" (there is no 3 or 4 section in 3-pass world) The contractor tells him I need 150,00 btus because that's what the label on the clunker said. So opens up the book and finds a 3-pass that matches the btu's and boom low and behold it's twice as much. Since Johnny the counter guy has no clue about hydronics he never asked if the guy did a heat loss or atleast asked him how much baseboard he had on the job or radiator sizes. My point here is that the German guys are no more pricey then the American guys. Can they be? Sure they can. I'm a firm beliver in putting the right equipment in for the job and giving the consumer the best bang for his buck. I just wanted to share my thoughts.
@ July 31, 2009 7:41 PM in New oil boiler adviceI don't understand why I keep hearing that German boilers are double the price. I can sell a 90,000 btu Viessmann VR1-22 w/beckett NX for less then a 3 Section Peerless WBV or Crown TWZ100.
@ July 31, 2009 7:33 PM in 2 circs for a primary loop ?7 plus 7 does not equal 14 in this case. The smallest boiler is the only boiler that takes a 007. I would put a Grundfos UPS15-58 and a UPS26-99 pn my trks and forget about it. With these 2 circs on the trk you have a circ for just about any application.
@ July 30, 2009 8:26 PM in New oil boiler adviceInto what you are going to do down the line as far as the radiant goes. The tax credit the gentleman above is talking about is only for gas. Nobody has an oil-boiler currently that qualifies. I sell Crown and they make a very good boiler. The cast iron in the boiler you are speaking about is cast by Viessmann for them. The only downfall of the CT w/radiant is that you are going to have to use Tekmar, Taco or someone elses controls for the radiant. You need to look at what you are going to want for a control strategy for the radiant now and let that help you decided what type of boiler you want. Buderus offers a decent boiler and you can get the ecomatic control now and plug in the mixing vlv card later when you decide to go with the radiant. You can also look at a Viessmann Vitorond 100 and run it for now on the basic honeywell aquastat that comes with the boiler and add the control down the line. You can so the same with the Buderus but the Viessmann Control will allow you more flexability then the Buderus control.
@ July 30, 2009 8:14 PM in HW Boiler replacementTo gas why are you not looking at a 95% AFUE boiler and taking adavantage of the $1,500 tax credit? You should also look into your local utility company and see if they are offering tax credits. My recommendation would be to do a little homework. I'm surprised this contractor did not make you aware of the Federal Tax Credit.
@ July 30, 2009 5:05 PM in Viessmann Vitodens BoilersIt was onl being release to the Northeast. I already have sold 2 of the new 100's and just quoted 6 more. 200 coming in 2wks for me.
@ July 30, 2009 11:57 AM in Viessmann Vitodens Boilersto e-mail you everything but is was kicked by because your server couldn't process. Files were too large. I'm going to have to send you multiple e-mails