Joined on December 29, 2008
Last Post on February 25, 2014
@ August 25, 2009 9:18 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetto your opinion.
My boiler will qualify for the full 1,500 tax credit..Remember the tax credit is 30% of the job upto the 1,500 bucks...Please give us the actual tax credit on the Navien..won't be the full 1,500 bucks unless your telling us your fudging invoices.
Based on his location the RV will only qualify for a 500.00 rebate from his local utility the mod/con 1,000.00 and if he installed an indirect another 300.00 that's a total of 2,800.00...So your telling me it is in the best interest of the customer to give up $2,300 compared to less money with the system you recommend based on your thought that the mod/con will only last x amount of yrs.
Ok...We are in 2009....Did you know by the yr 2015 all boilers sold in the US must have some type of out-door compensation? Did you know that beginning next yr Burnham will be implementing the new ES2 control into all their boilers. My point is..No matter what product you purchased there are going to be changes and sooner then we think.
@ August 25, 2009 8:45 PM in Has Anyone Else Run Into ThisI was really disappointed today concering a certain radiant manufacturer. I had my best customer today send me an e-mail concerning a job that we had previously spoke about that we were called upon to quote.
He went to the job and the customer already had a certain manufacture design the radiant layout. The warm board and tubing were installed. After leaving the job and then calling me I told him to ask the homeowner to e-mail him all the specs and heat loss that he was given by the radiant manufacture so we could size a boiler and I could give him manifolds, etc. I really needed the loss so I could size a boiler. The customer wanted to use a mod/con that modulate between 55,000 and 199,00 btus and the radiant manufacture was aware of this. I questions the boiler size do to the application compared to the sqft of the home.
After getting the specs done by the manufacturer I started scratching my head. Why? There was no heat loss. Just a layout for the tubing with loop lengths, manifolds and zones. So, as diligent as I am, there was a 800 number and the person at this manufacturer who did the layout with a job number. So I called. I spoke with the person that went out to the job. I figured I would get the heat loss from the source vs getting it from the homeowner.
Well was I surprised. I explained to this person who I was, why I was calling, gave him the job number. He pulled it up and new the job to the tee. So I told him, the only info I received was what I spoke of above and that I needed the heat loss to size the boiler for the job...He states......WE DID NOT DO A HEAT LOSS. WE JUST DID THE LAYOUT. Now, the print provided has no spacing of the tubing so of course my next question was. HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THE APPROPRIATE CENTERS FOR THE JOB AND APPROPRIATE WATER TEMPS REQUIRED. His anwser...OUR WARMBOARD WILL PUT OUT WITH BETWEEN 90 AND 110 DEGREE WATER 25 TO 30 BTU'S A SQFT. I said. That's nice, but what if that out-put is not enough to overcome the heat loss. He states....THAT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY WE ONLY DO LAYOUTS. So, my next question is.....What is the floor surface temp for this job if you didn't do a heat loss? His response...FLOOR SURFACE TEMPS WILL BE BETWEEN 74 AND 85 DEGREES. Now I am shaking my head...The floor surfaces for this job are tile and bamboo. I hang up the phone because I'm not getting anywhere with these guys and I am disgusted.
This company is a member of the Radiant Panel Association, National Association of Home Builders, US Green Building Council and other associations. How does a radiant company this big just toss out the basic fundementals of radiant heat to the wolves. Seems like they are more interested in selling product and leaving someone else to hold the bag if a system like this does not work. So I write this open letter.
Dear Mr Warmboard,
Can you please send me some software so I can calculate this poor homeowners heat loss. I need to do your job and figure out for him what water temps he needs with your product at 12" on center based on the the heat loss of the rooms your product is installed. That is the least you could do since you do not have the technical expertise in heat loss calculation but you do have the technical expertise in doing design layouts. By the way, That boiler you recommended to the homeowner...It's a little to big...But how would you know. You didn't do a heat loss...But you knew how to recommend the boiler.
That's how we got the call to look at this job...You recommended the boiler to the homeowner, the homeowner contacted them and inturn he got our name...By the way I think 199,000 btus in a radiant application is a little to big for a house of 4,500 sqft...You might ask how I came up with that....From you.....House is all radiant.....4,5000 sqft times the 30 btu's a sqft (that's what you told me your product max btu ouput is) = 135,000 btus....
PS. Be prepared for a phone call from one angry homeowner. We are stating on our quote that we do not guarantee that the radiant heat will heat the space to overcome the required heat loss of the structure. But don't worry we will help this guy out if you have to go back a 3 or 4 times over the heat season to balance it out. We just had to put the same disclaimer as you.
@ August 25, 2009 7:47 PM in What Do You Guy`s Think?has lost the personal touch we had prior. I don't like the RSS feed because it doesn't give me the subject of the topic the poster is writing from. I don't like the fact that I have to click on every thread to see where it came from. It would be fine if I only subscribed to one Forum but I subscribe to multiple forums and it's a pain. It was also nice to get the reply to your e-mail. I find that was much better. It was much easier to reply. I haven't even touched the PDF file issue which I have read that Dan is working on. Site seems to have lost the personal touch all us regulars had speaking with each other.
@ August 25, 2009 7:41 PM in Dan, How come whenyou type paragraphs here the post ends up like this.
Another new paragraph
@ August 25, 2009 7:38 PM in Anyone familier with using a Vitodens 200 with external DHW pump?you or the plumber? I take it you were there to wire the boiler up.
@ August 25, 2009 7:25 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetFirst let me start with Tony's recommendation. Tony, by the time you line the chimmney for the ES2 and add the out-door reset card you spent more money then the mod/con. For the homeowner.
I totally understand your thought process. While I'm in NY I'm also originally from New England and understand what you are talking about. Let's start fresh and back to basics concerning your project and question.
I understand that you have done the heat loss but I have another question. Have you compared the heat loss of each room to the max out-put of the exisiting heat emiiters in each room? You need to. Here is why.
Let's take a room with baseboard in it. What's the loss of that room? Let's say it's 4,800 btus. That means you would need roughly 8 foot of fin-tube baseboard (Brands of residential baseboard put out between 590 and 600 btus per sqft.) to heat the room with 180 degree water when it is 0 outside. How many days is it zero? Your only about 100 or less miles from me and I've lived in CT so I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and give you 7 days.
Now that room has a total of 12 feet of baseboard because back in the day someone decided to wrap the room which is very common. The total btu's I can get out of 12 feet of baseboard with 180 degree water temp is roughly 7,000 btus. But I don't need 7,000 btu's to heat that space ever. So I can lower my water temp to match the btu required by the heat loss to heat the space when it is zero outside. This is where the mod/con plays a better role then the cast iron boiler. The mod/con is set up to do this. The cast iron boiler is not. You have to start adding controls that are not generally controls from the boiler manufacture but from a third party or you have to order cards to plug into boiler mfgs controls. With the mod/con you are dealing with a complete system that is ready to go, with the cast iron you are not.
If you take a look at the Viessmann Vitodens 100 which is perfect for this application. The boiler offers you the 95% afue you need for the tax credit/rebates, the outdoor reset you need and the simplicity of not doing primary secondary piping. It also has a much better warranty than the Triangle or any other boiler you listed here. It has a 2 yrs parts (the cast iron guys 1 yr) and limited lifetime on the heat exchanger (just like the cast iron guys). We do not discuss pricing here but it would be wise to look into this boiler. Probably comes pretty close to that ES2 boiler once you add the liner, extra card and extra labor to install that liner and the ES2 does not qualify for the tax credit.
Best of Luck
@ August 25, 2009 6:45 PM in Aluminum heat exchangersfallen into the trap....Marketing.......Your educated about the car. A car that was once a luxury item is now a necessity. Who said you had to buy the 30k car. I'll tell you. Every commerical and magazine with a hot chick and the premise that you could get that hot chick or that you will fell all good inside. The automobile has been marketed as a status symbol and we love that. We all feel real good inside when we turns heads as we drive down the road or when we pull into the driveway. I have a question for both of you. How much do you spend a year on maintenance of your car? This would include cleaning, oil change and other fixes that you may spend over the year or better yet the life of the car you own. What does your average customer spend a yr or on the life of mainting their heating system?
As far a the Vanna White analogy. I've sure seen alot of people jumping up and down over getting appliances on game shows.
@ August 25, 2009 2:47 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetIs this your house or the customers house? I ask because I would think that you would want to leave it up to them whether they would like to take advantage of the Federal Tax Credit and the local utility rebates if they are offered in your area. Not to sound like a jerk but shouldn't the choice of boiler be there choice based on all the information you as the contractor are providing them. If I were the homeowner I would think that you would be doing me as your customer a dis-service by not letting me know about the tax/utlity rebates and credits and allow me to make the decision that fits my needs. The cost of a mod/con of 98% afue after the rebate and tax credit will be just as much and in some cases less than the cost of the 88% or 92% afue boiler you may choose. Just because you may not want to pipe a certain way shouldn't influence the needs of your customer. Leave the decision up to them. Let them decide based the information you provide them as the professional.
Again, do not want to come over as bashing you just giving my 2 cents.
@ August 25, 2009 11:28 AM in plumberof backflow preventer or check vlv on the cold water side feeding the tank? If so, thermal expansion may be the cause. Dumb question because you didn't state this but did you zone the tank?
@ August 24, 2009 6:09 PM in Propane heater and water heater-venting/exhaustAtleast the vent pipe out? Can you use combustion air from inside the room? If so, you could use a Nortiz instantaneous hot water htr. They do sell a draft induced version and you can vent pretty far away.
@ August 24, 2009 7:11 AM in Aluminum heat exchangersNo matter what the PH coming into your home should be a 7 (neutral) anything else lower and the water becomes acidic. But to fix this problem we have to created another problem. Hard Water. If you find that you PH is low and have to add an acid neutralizer you are going to make the water hard and will have to also add a water softner to the system.
What we generally do in this type of application is also add a post carbon whole house filter to clean up any residual from either piece of equipment.
@ August 23, 2009 8:05 PM in Aluminum heat exchangersHow often do you trade in the vehicle you drive? Why are some stating that if the boiler was less money, then the length of time it last would not be an issue. Why is our industry treated so different then the other industries in this country? Would any of you that post on this site go to "appliancehelp.com" or "carhelp.com" or any other industry.com (fictional wen sites) and ask those manufactures to cheap-in the price of their higher end product so it's affordable to you because you don't think it's worth that much. Then why do you want it?
Why do people that can't afford something feel that it is their right to get it at the price they want to pay? Go to carhelp.com and ask the car manufactures to make a 25k car (the average price of a decent auto) that will last more than 10 years. I hate paying 3 bucks a gallon for gas and with gas I have no choice because everyone charges the same. Plus or minus a few pennies.
Let's face it. Certain higher end products are meant for people that can afford it. If you can't afford the higher end product then you don't get it. Whether you think it's worth the price or not is irrelevant. Why? Because you have a choice whether to purchase it or not.
Few more questions to all the guys that have installed and to those that have mod/cons. How often do you service the piece of equipment you installed or you own? Be honest..Do you do a water test and is a water test done on every installation prior to quoting this type of boiler? ....Be honest....If you answered no to either question guess what......It's the Indian not the arrow...
@ August 22, 2009 10:13 PM in discussing pricing.......JD,
That was a beautiful post and a great story.
@ August 22, 2009 8:24 PM in discussing pricing.......My point on this subject, and it is not directed at you or anyone else. This is America anyone in this country is allowed and should be allowed to charge whatever the heck they want. Whether it is reasonable to you or anyone else or it isn't. You have that same choice as an american to accept or decline the price/service I want to charge you. If I feel my knowledge, experience and expertise is worth x amount of dollars that is my choice.
In pretty much every other service related industry in this country the manufactures of the products and the corporations that sell their profit spend some big dollars on brainwashing america that they should by their product at a certain price. So the public goes in knowing what they want and what they are going to pay for it. Our industry does zero, zippo, mainstream tv and/or radio marketing like those industries. In other words we deal with an un-educated public and when people feel they are being outwitted they automatically thing they are getting screwed in some way.
Let me ask you this. Do you think every baseball, football or basketball player should get the same exact salary? Do you think they should get paid by the quality of work they perform on their sports stage? How about this, you have 3 counter guys, they were all hired at the same time. One of them is well above and beyond the others, should he only get the same wage as them because they started at the same time?
I'm a firm believer in that if you want the best you pay for the best. Can't afford the best unfortunatly you don't get the best. Next time you have a legal issue ask an attorney that you know you can't afford to take care of your issue for what an attorney that you can afford. Do you think he'll take your case?
@ August 22, 2009 3:05 PM in discussing pricing.......My rebuttle....
You state that items in the supermarket are cheap. So what you are saying is that it's ok for someone to make let's say a 40% profit on a $6.00 item but it is not ok for someone to make the same profit on a $1,000.00 item because the six dollar item is affordable to you. So if we use your analogy it would be ok for me to make a 40% profit on let's say a circulator change because it's less expensive of an item and yo can afford it but I can only make 20% profit on a boiler change because that is an expensive item so I have to make it affordable to you.
Do you go to the BMW dealer and tell them you want that BMW but at the same price of a Yugo? What I mean by this is..If you want the best heating system and the best contractor, you pay for it. If you can't afford it you don't get it. Why do we have to give up our profits to make it affordable! If it's not affordable to you then I have no problem giving you what is affordable. You just don't get the better heating system. But in our industry it happens. Why? Because there is always some schmuk out there that will give you the price for the system you want but no do it correctly or do it in a manner that causes you problems.
Then what do we hear? That xxx is nothing but a piece of crap. I should have never put that in. See, that other guy was going to charge me a whole hell of alot more then the guy that did the job. Glad I didn't use him. He's a rip off and sells crap product. But is wasn't the product it was the crap contractor? But he made if affordable for ya!
I hate the new site I don't have your post below to re-read. But I believe you said something about, how do you know about the contractors work until after he has finished or done the job, You can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know about you but anytime I have someone work at my home..I ASK FOR REFERENCES AND I CHECK THEM. If he doesn't want to give them to me he doesn't work in or on my property. I always ask for the last 3 customers he worked for and I call them. I tell them that I am in the process of choosing this contractor and would you mine if I came over to see his work. Haven't been turned down yet.
@ August 22, 2009 10:35 AM in Aluminum heat exchangersnor has it been said to the contractor or wholesalers. While I will not reveal my source it comes for someone inside the industry with knowledge to the change. I'll leave it at that.
@ August 22, 2009 10:19 AM in discussing pricing.......The rule is the rule and Dan makes a good point. Certain market areas in the county are different and we cannot change that. To Jd point about breaking out quotes.
Do you ask your doctor or lawyer to break out a quote for you? Do you ask the grocery store to quote you groceries and have them break out their overhead and carrying costs associated with a product. How about Macy's, Walmart or another store. We would all be sick to our stomachs to see the profit margins these companies are making on their products. Why is it that our industry is always scrutinized but yet nobody blinks an eye at those products and/or services.
Did you ask the car dealer to break out his overhead for the car you are going to purchase? If someone wants my service and they will pay my price. It's their choice. They can find someone else to do the job. Nine out of ten times the quality of work they get is exactly what they paid and their calling back the professional anyway to fix the mess now it just cost them twice as much.
I run into this all the time with radiant jobs. People always say too much compared to another guy so I just start asking questions. I usually start out by saying is he doing the same type of application, boiler, and controls as I and ninety percent of the time you get....No but he's less expensive, so I'm going with him.. I just say ok and move on to the next job. Don't you know it, you always get a call back in that or the following heat seaon with the...I'm not happy with the system, you seemed very knowledgebale when you were quoting it, could you stop by and take a look, the guy that installed it won't call me back or he's been here 3 or 4 times and can't seem to correct the problem.
You pay a professional contractor for a professional job . You pay a contractor for a contractors job. There is a difference.
@ August 22, 2009 9:55 AM in Rinnai Contiuum for radiant heatBut why? Just curious. Why not use a wall hung gas condensing boiler? I don't believe you would get the federal tax credit as the instantaneous is a water heater and you are not using it in a water heater application. Plus, with the boiler you wouldn't need the heat exchanger. How would you reset the radiant with the tankless? With the boiler is has out-door reset, ie comfort and eff for the customer.
@ August 22, 2009 7:14 AM in R22 in a 410A heat pumpchange the filter drier and re-charge. Not worth messing around.
@ August 22, 2009 6:57 AM in Warranty / recall parts installI generally handle the labor on warranties 2 ways.
1. Instead of monies, I get product from the manufacure at no charge and pass that on to my customer to cover labor. ie, I have accumlated alot of faucets, toilets, parts etc and I give to my guys for their next job to make up the labor.
2. I give extra discounts on my customers next couple of jobs to make up labor. If it's a boiler that that he had a problem with, I ask the manufacture for a personal use discount price for him on his next boiler. I sell him the one out of my stock at that discounted price and order in a new boiler at the discount cost.
My feeling on this is that it is not the manufacturers responsibility to take care of my customer it is mine. It's my customer. I'm the mfg's customer so it's their responsibility to take care of me if they like that I sell their product. I have no problem not selling a certain mfg product because of the lack of support. Have done it in the past and will probably do it in the future.
Doesn't your wholesaler have some responsibility here? Why is it always the mfg?
@ August 22, 2009 6:44 AM in wall hung boiler for radiantThe new Vitodens 100 is in the same price range as the others. What part of the country are you in? Also, why not take advantage of the federal tax. With the tax credit the boiler gets to the price point of a conventional gas boiler. The new Vitodens 100 comes with out-door reset.
Is the nat gas? If so, here our local utilites are giving a $1,000.00 rebate on 90 plus equip ontop of the tax credit and you get that back in a check in 4-6 weeks.
@ August 21, 2009 6:49 PM in Aluminum heat exchangersI'll leave up to you guys whether you would install this boiler or not. Weil is in the process of changing their heat exchanger in this boiler from alum to stainless. Why? They are beginning to see problems associated with the alum block ie, failures and this comes from a source that knows.
If it were me I woould be looking at Viessmanns new Vitodens 100 or 200 depending on the application. Why? Strongest stainless heat exchanger on the market. Look at the table of metals nobody elses compares. Also they have a 2 yr warranty on parts and limited liftetime on the exchanger. Nobody else has this type of warranty.
Also, it you go with the new Vitodens 200. The burner continually looks at gas pressure and gas mixtures and adjusts to fire at its optimum peak. The boiler also condenses like crazy. Your flue gas temp with only be 15 degrees higher than you return water temp. This boiler can also be vented many different ways and to over 200' away.
I haven't even gotten into the control. I'll leave that up to you. If you would like some info in it, ie, lit and manuals just e-mail me and I will forward them to you. We cannot post PDF files on this site.