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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 29, 2014

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You really have me confused

@ November 2, 2009 3:48 PM in Raidant heat install

Do the rooms with the sensors in the floors have radiant? Do they also have baseboard in those same rooms? If you have both radiant and high temp (baseboard) heating you cannot run the same water temp for the radiant as you do the baseboard.
By the nature of your questions you really need a professional before you end up costing yourself alot of money to fix down the road. That is the best advice I can give you. There are plenty of great contractors in here from all over the states and you could sure use one. Where are you located?

I would suggest

@ November 2, 2009 3:34 PM in Raidant heat install

You get the proper Viessmann controls and find a professional. This is not a DIY install. There are alot of variables here especially with floor sensors.
Do you have a heat loss? Do you have a radiant design for the floors? What was the objective when this job was originally sized? Where are you located?

I'm confused

@ November 2, 2009 3:32 PM in Raidant heat install

You stated that you have sensors in the floors. Is this a baseboard job with floor warming? If so, why if he sold you a Viessmann would they not just sell the Vitotronic control with Viessmanns 3-way mix vlv and vitorol control. With this you could have both a high temp curve for the baseboard and a low temp curve for the floor warming.

Like Dan said

@ November 2, 2009 3:25 PM in Raidant heat install

See the local supply house. You could have a potential for a problem here. Did you purchase the Vitorond with a Viessmann control on it packaged from the factory? If not and it is the basic boiler with a honeywell aquastat they do not install the return water injector on boilers sold with honeywell aquastats. You may not have the boiler protection you need for low water temp systems, ie,  radiant.

Heat Loss

@ November 2, 2009 6:32 AM in size house or radiation

You always size with a heat loss as BoilerPro has stated. You can measure the radiation to see what it's capable output is at a given supply water temp and then use that with the heat loss to find yourself a heating curve. But keep in mind you must also protect that boiler from low return water temps if it is cast iron.

Call the installer

@ November 1, 2009 4:48 PM in Circulator Whistling?

In your topic you said you has this installed. Why are you trying to figure out what is going on? Call the contractor that installed the boiler, it's his install and his work. I'm sure he would like to know if something is wrong. The more you keep playing around with it the more he is going to say you caused some type of problem.

GPM and Head

@ November 1, 2009 7:44 AM in Fin Tube and Tekmar 361

Based on the info you are providing and I may be a little off but here is what I come up with for a system pump.
20 degree delta t would require 13.4 GPM at 15.16 ft of head = Taco 0011
30 degree delta t would require 8.9 GPM at 15.16 ft of head = Taco 0014
This is all based on you delivering 134,000 btus, the longest loop length you provided and that you are zoning with zone valves.
Personally I would use a Grundfoss 26-99 Pump. That will cover both curves with the turn of a dial.

Condensing Boilers with Baseboard

@ October 31, 2009 6:41 PM in Condensing Boilers with Baseboard

More and more this type of installation is the norm. I dug around Brookhaven and Dept of Energy and came across this study done in October of 2004 by Dr Thomas Butcher. It's a pretty interesting read. Thought some of you out there would like the read.

What I got out of it is the importance of a heat loss, use a 30 degree delta t when you can and set the right heating curve/ You should condense condense and condense 90 percent of the time during the heat season and still keep the customer comfortable.

Scrap 3 and 4

@ October 31, 2009 6:31 PM in Replacement Boiler

Choice 2 will be having some upgraded controls in the near future. Burnham is beginning to get ready for 2012 and is starting to implement the same control strategy that is now in the ES2 into the MPO and the Apline. You may find that the current Alpine is not current by mid next yr. Don't know much about choice 1 as not used in my market very much to the best of my knowledge. The new Viessmann Vitodens and Triangles Solo seem to be the boiler of choice in my market with the VItodens being the leader for me.

I agree

@ October 31, 2009 6:15 PM in Fin Tube and Tekmar 361

on the 120 but I would recommend that he have a pro revisit that heat loss. Based on his loss his house is somewhere the the 5,000 sqft range or it is uninsulated with crappy windows and in the 3,000 sqft range in a zero design climate.
He has plenty of board to increase his delta t out to 30 providing he protects the boiler. This application drools for a mod/con. He needs to size those pumps based on a 30 not a 20 delta t. He stated in his post he needs 13.4 GPM but also states that his delta t is larger than 20 so he is contridicting himself. Can't come up with that 13.4 unless it is a 20. 

Why make so complicated

@ October 31, 2009 1:05 PM in Fin Tube and Tekmar 361

Small project requires easy install and control. Conventional cast iron boiler, I would use a Taco RMB. All my injection piping is done as are both my injection pump and system pump. And it will handle the load based on your heat loss. It also will give you boiler protection. KIS all the way. Don't be worried about the overrated house that's a good thing. Nobody ever said that you must maintain a 20 degree delta t

New 100

@ October 31, 2009 12:06 PM in Viessmann WB2B Hot Water Priority?

The new 100 has priorty logic in the control. You just don't use a sensor. Has a sperate DHW block that you need to wire to. When that block is activated it shuts down RT (TT) terminals and goes into high fire.

Slow down the flow rate

@ October 31, 2009 8:36 AM in weil Mclain ultra oil, 2 hydro coils, outdoor reset?

For starters hydro-air brings on an oversized heating load. What I mean is that the btu out-put on the heat side is 99.9 percent of the time oversized for the heat loss of the structure because it is sized for the cooling load and not the heat load. For example, a 3 ton air handler will give you basically 60,000 btu output. What size Air Handler do you have? How about attacking it by doing the reset but slowing down your flowrate through the coil and give yourself a larger delta-t.

Didn't want

@ October 30, 2009 12:38 PM in Viessmann WB2B Hot Water Priority?

to get into that but your right..Thought maybe the easiest way to overcome the objection was advise the guy to use Viessmanns Indirect that way his contractor would have no issues to speak of.  I'm with you on the comment.

Viessmann Indirect

@ October 30, 2009 10:15 AM in Viessmann WB2B Hot Water Priority?

If the contractor is so concerned about the sensor and you want a indirect tank and no issues then the best way to go is to use Viessmans CVA or EVI tank. The CVA will be less expensive than the Stainless EVI but it will cost you more than and Amtrol.

There Lies the Problem

@ October 29, 2009 6:39 AM in Viessmann WB2B Hot Water Priority?

You will not find even a mention of a zone valve in the installation maual. The Germans believe in pumps not zone valves.  He should be  zoning with pumps. See page 31 of the installation manual attached for a basic system layout. I also attached the other manuals so you can get a head start and educate yourself.
If this is an Amtrol Boilermate he has to remove the exisiting aquastat and probe and insert the Viessmann DHW sensor in the well. He can then pack the sensor with some insulation on one side to get the sensor to make contact with the side of the existing well to get the best readings. Has been done and will work.

Your the gentleman who e-mailed me


Your out on Long Island. I would suggest that you contact a trade professional out there. Rob O'Brien of Technical Heating is in your area he would be a great person to work with. You only get one chance to do it right so do it right.

Simply Wrong

@ October 28, 2009 6:17 PM in Viessmann WB2B Hot Water Priority?

That boiler is capable out of the box to do both. I'm going to assume by the WB2B that this is the new Vitodens 200 boiler. With this boiler he must purchase a seperate domestic sensor that is a accessory. Attached please see the tech data manual for the Vitodens 200 Boilers. There is a section for domestic water.

I don't understand what return water would have anything to do with this. The boiler is going to shut down the heat side and high fire to satisfy the domestic. The control on this boiler is capable of running 2 different heating temperature curves along with domestic out of the box.
Is he using the recommended low loss header and temperature sensor that goes in the low loss header to provide water temp supply feedback to the boiler? It sounds from your post that he is using either a Vitrol 200 or Vitorol 300 remote control sO I don't understand his logic concerning the domestic tank.
I would strongly urge you to educate yourself on this boiler.

You can design

@ October 26, 2009 7:38 AM in slab in basement how long to heatup

for what ever temp you want but a thermostatic mixing valve is the most primitive way to control radiant water temp. As stated you are looking for comfort. Why would you run the same water temp that you need on your design temp day on a 20 or 30 degree day? Isn't that the opposite of comfort. Why turn a system that wants outdoor  reset into nothing more than a on/off system?

I'd like to read this study that was referenced, does anyone have a link for it? Back to your I want to see 70 degrees on my thermostat. Didn't the gentleman who originally posted give the reason. The floor overshoots....With a lower water and design temp we can control the overshooting. When the zone is satisfied and that mass keeps giving off heat we can keep the room comfortable. This is more pertinent when there is no floor sensor.

How Long?

@ October 24, 2009 10:43 AM in slab in basement how long to heatup

An impossible question to answer. For starters the max water temp for Pex in concrete is 140 degree water. Once you start driving over that temp the concrete begins to crystalize around the tubing thus slowly reducing btu output until it cannot produce any at all. No different than scale build up in a coil.
Back to your question. You should never have overshoot of the therm if the system water temp is properly controlled. If you have a basic thermostatic mixing valve and running the same temp on a 20 or 30 degree day that you need at zero for the radiant it is a water temp control issue. In a properly designed radiant system we do not use 70 degrees as our indoor design temperature to calculate heat loss and water temp. We use 65. Some may use 68 but a properly designed radiant system never uses 70 degrees.

If you are overshooting you need a much lower water temp. Have a radiant heat loss done (notice I did not say a heat loss I said a radiant heat loss). Set the water temp needed for your design day. If a thermostatic mixing vlv, throw it in the garbage and consider using some type of control that will modulate the radiant water temp based on outdoor temp. The Taco RMB is what I call radiant for dummies, all the piping and pumps are done for you and it works great and is an easy installation. Check it out at [url=]

Boiler Choice

@ October 24, 2009 10:22 AM in best kind of boiler to buy - inputs welcome

Do not size of the boiler off the old boiler. Have a heat loss done. You will probably find that you have more radiation than the heat loss requires which means you may be able to start a lower heating curve. My boiler choice would be Viessmann Vitola. Lit is attached


@ October 19, 2009 7:29 PM in Radiant as supplemental heat?

of carpet is very high. Probabluy somewhere around an r-value of 3 maybe even 4 depending on the type or pad. Be prepared for having to use some high water temps to drive the heat. A must is a floor sensor for this application.