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Chris

Chris

Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on April 1, 2014

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You and the Post above have

@ August 25, 2009 6:45 PM in Aluminum heat exchangers

fallen into the trap....Marketing.......Your educated about the car. A car that was once a luxury item is now a necessity. Who said you had to buy the 30k car. I'll tell you.  Every commerical and magazine with a hot chick and the premise that you could get that hot chick or that you will fell all good inside. The automobile has been marketed as a status symbol and we love that.  We all feel real good inside when we turns heads as we drive down the road or when we pull into the driveway. I have a question for both of you. How much do you spend a year on maintenance of your car? This would include cleaning, oil change and other fixes that you may spend over the year or better yet the life of the car you own. What does your average customer spend a yr or on the life of mainting their heating system?
As far a the Vanna White analogy. I've sure seen alot of people jumping up and down over getting appliances on game shows.

I have a question

@ August 25, 2009 2:47 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor reset

Is this your house or the customers house? I ask because I would think that you would want to leave it up to them whether they would like to take advantage of the Federal Tax Credit and the local utility rebates if they are offered in your area. Not to sound like a jerk but shouldn't the choice of boiler be there choice based on all the information you as the contractor are providing them. If I were the homeowner I would think that you would be doing me as your customer a dis-service by not letting me know about the tax/utlity rebates and credits and allow me to make the decision that fits my needs. The cost of a mod/con of 98% afue after the rebate and tax credit will be just as much and in some cases less than the cost of the 88% or 92% afue boiler you may choose. Just because you may not want to pipe a certain way shouldn't influence the needs of your customer. Leave the decision up to them. Let them decide based the information you provide them as the professional.
Again, do not want to come over as bashing you just giving my 2 cents.

Is there some type

@ August 25, 2009 11:28 AM in plumber

of backflow preventer or check vlv on the cold water side feeding the tank? If so, thermal expansion may be the cause. Dumb question because you didn't state this but did you zone the tank?

Can you run

@ August 24, 2009 6:09 PM in Propane heater and water heater-venting/exhaust

Atleast the vent pipe out? Can you use combustion air from inside the room? If so, you could use a Nortiz instantaneous hot water htr. They do sell a draft induced version and you can vent pretty far away.

Water Test

@ August 24, 2009 7:11 AM in Aluminum heat exchangers

No matter what the PH coming into your home should be a 7 (neutral) anything else lower and the water becomes acidic. But to fix this problem we have to created another problem. Hard Water. If you find that you PH is low and have to add an acid neutralizer you are going to make the water hard and will have to also add a water softner to the system.
What we generally do in this type of application is also add a post carbon whole house filter to clean up any residual from either piece of equipment.

I Post This Question

@ August 23, 2009 8:05 PM in Aluminum heat exchangers

How often do you trade in the vehicle you drive? Why are some stating that if the boiler was less money,  then the length of time it last would not be an issue. Why is our industry treated so different then the other industries in this country? Would any of you that post on this site go to "appliancehelp.com" or "carhelp.com" or any other industry.com (fictional wen sites) and ask those manufactures to cheap-in the price of their higher end product so it's affordable to you because you don't think it's worth that much. Then why do you want it?
Why do people that can't afford something feel that it is their right to get it at the price they want to pay? Go to carhelp.com and ask the car manufactures to make a 25k car (the average price of a decent auto) that will last more than 10 years. I hate paying 3 bucks a gallon for gas and with gas I have no choice because everyone charges the same.  Plus or minus a few pennies.
Let's face it. Certain higher end products are meant for people that can afford it. If you can't afford the higher end product then you don't get it. Whether you think it's worth the price or not is irrelevant. Why? Because you have a choice whether to purchase it or not.
Few more questions to all the guys that have installed and to those that have mod/cons. How often do you service the piece of equipment you installed or you own? Be honest..Do you do a water test and is a water test done on every installation prior to quoting this type of boiler? ....Be honest....If you answered no to either question guess what......It's the Indian not the arrow...

I have to save this one

@ August 22, 2009 10:13 PM in discussing pricing.......

JD,
That was a beautiful post and a great story.

JD

@ August 22, 2009 8:24 PM in discussing pricing.......

My point on this subject, and it is not directed at you or anyone else. This is America anyone in this country is allowed and should be allowed to charge whatever the heck they want. Whether it is reasonable to you or anyone else or it isn't. You have that same choice as an american to accept or decline the price/service I want to charge you. If I feel my knowledge, experience and expertise is worth x amount of dollars that is my choice.
In pretty much every other service related industry in this country the manufactures of the products and the corporations that sell their profit spend some big dollars on brainwashing america that they should by their product at a certain price. So the public goes in knowing what they want and what they are going to pay for it. Our industry does zero, zippo, mainstream  tv and/or  radio marketing like those industries. In other words we deal with an un-educated public and when people feel they are being outwitted they automatically thing they are getting screwed in some way.
Let me ask you this. Do you think every baseball, football or basketball player should get the same exact salary?  Do you think they should get paid by the quality of work they perform on their sports stage? How about this, you have 3 counter guys, they were all hired at the same time. One of them is well above and beyond the others, should he only get the same wage as them because they started at the same time?
I'm a firm believer in that if you want the best you pay for the best. Can't afford the best unfortunatly you don't get the best. Next time you have a legal issue ask an attorney that you know you can't afford to take care of your issue for what an attorney that you can afford. Do you think he'll take your case? 

Nice Reply

@ August 22, 2009 3:05 PM in discussing pricing.......

My rebuttle....

You state that items in the supermarket are cheap. So what you are saying is that it's ok for someone to make let's say a 40% profit on a $6.00 item but it is not ok for someone to make the same profit on a $1,000.00 item because the six dollar item is affordable to you. So if we use your analogy it would be ok for me to make a 40% profit on let's say a circulator change because it's less expensive of an item and yo can afford it but I can only make 20% profit on a boiler change because that is an expensive item so I have to make it affordable to you. 
Do you go to the BMW dealer and tell them you want that BMW but at the same price of a Yugo? What I mean by this is..If you want the best heating system and the best contractor, you pay for it. If you can't afford it you don't get it. Why do we have to give up our profits to make it affordable! If it's not affordable to you then I have no problem giving you what is affordable. You just don't get the better heating system. But in our industry it happens. Why?  Because there is always some schmuk out there that will give you the price for  the system you want but no do it correctly or do it in a manner that causes you problems.
Then what do we hear? That xxx is nothing but a piece of crap. I should have never put that in. See, that other guy was going to charge me a whole hell of alot more then the guy that did the job. Glad I didn't use him. He's a rip off and sells crap product. But is wasn't the product it was the crap contractor? But he made if affordable for ya!
I hate the new site I don't have your post below to re-read. But I believe you said something about, how do you know about the contractors work until after he has finished or done the job, You can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know about you but anytime I have someone work at my home..I ASK FOR REFERENCES AND I CHECK THEM. If he doesn't want to give them to me he doesn't work in or on my property. I always ask for the last 3 customers he worked for and I call them. I tell them that I am in the process of choosing this contractor and would you mine if I came over to see his work. Haven't been turned down yet.

Not publically avail

@ August 22, 2009 10:35 AM in Aluminum heat exchangers

nor has it been said to the contractor or wholesalers. While I will not reveal my source it comes for someone inside the industry with knowledge to the change. I'll leave it at that.

Pricing

@ August 22, 2009 10:19 AM in discussing pricing.......

The rule is the rule and Dan makes a good point. Certain market areas in the county are different and we cannot change that. To Jd point about breaking out quotes.
Do you ask your doctor or lawyer to break out a quote for you? Do you ask the grocery store to quote you groceries and have them break out their overhead and carrying costs associated with a product. How about Macy's, Walmart or another store. We would all be sick to our stomachs to see the profit margins these companies are making on their products. Why is it that our industry is always scrutinized  but yet nobody blinks an eye at those products and/or services.
Did you ask the car dealer to break out his overhead for the car you  are going to purchase? If someone wants my service and they will pay my price. It's their choice. They can find someone  else to do the job. Nine out of ten times the quality of work they get is exactly what they paid and their calling back the professional anyway to fix the mess now it just cost them twice as much.
I run into this all the time with radiant jobs. People always say too much compared to another guy so I just start asking questions.  I usually start out by saying is he doing the same type of application, boiler, and controls as I and ninety percent of the time you get....No but he's less expensive, so I'm going with him.. I just say ok and move on to the next job. Don't you know it, you always get a call back in that or the following heat seaon with the...I'm not happy with the system, you seemed very knowledgebale when you were quoting it, could you stop by and take a look,  the guy that installed it won't call me back or he's been here 3 or 4 times and can't seem to correct the problem.
You pay a professional contractor for a professional job . You pay a contractor for a contractors job. There is a difference.

Could be done

@ August 22, 2009 9:55 AM in Rinnai Contiuum for radiant heat

But why? Just curious. Why not use a wall hung gas condensing boiler? I don't believe you would get the federal tax credit as the instantaneous is a water heater and you are not using it in a water heater application. Plus, with the boiler you wouldn't need the heat exchanger. How would you reset the radiant with the tankless? With the boiler is has out-door reset, ie comfort and eff for the customer.

Completely Flush It

@ August 22, 2009 7:14 AM in R22 in a 410A heat pump

change the filter drier and re-charge. Not worth messing around.

More than One Way to Skin a Cat

@ August 22, 2009 6:57 AM in Warranty / recall parts install

I generally handle the labor on warranties 2 ways.
1. Instead of monies, I get product from the manufacure at no charge and pass that on to my customer to cover labor. ie, I have accumlated alot of faucets, toilets, parts etc and I give to my guys for their next job to make up the labor.
2. I give extra discounts on my customers next couple of jobs to make up labor. If it's a boiler that that he had a problem with, I ask the manufacture for a personal use discount price for him on his next boiler. I sell him the one out of my stock at that discounted price and order in a new boiler at the discount cost.
My feeling on this is that it is not the manufacturers responsibility to take care of my customer it is mine. It's my customer. I'm the mfg's customer so it's their responsibility to take care of me if they like that I sell their product. I have no problem not selling a certain mfg product because of the lack of support. Have done it in the past and will probably do it in the future.
Doesn't your wholesaler have some responsibility here? Why is it always the mfg?

Less Expensive

@ August 22, 2009 6:44 AM in wall hung boiler for radiant

The new Vitodens 100 is in the same price range as the others. What part of the country are you in? Also, why not take advantage of the federal tax. With the tax credit the boiler gets to the price point of a conventional gas boiler. The new Vitodens 100 comes with out-door reset.
Is the nat gas? If so, here our local utilites are giving a $1,000.00 rebate on 90 plus equip ontop of the tax credit and you get that back in a check in 4-6 weeks.

Here's the anwser in a nutshell

@ August 21, 2009 6:49 PM in Aluminum heat exchangers

I'll leave up to you guys whether you would install this boiler or not. Weil is in the process of changing their heat exchanger in this boiler from alum to stainless. Why? They are beginning to see problems associated with the alum block ie, failures and this comes from a source that knows.
If it were me I woould be looking at Viessmanns new Vitodens 100 or 200 depending on the application. Why? Strongest stainless heat exchanger on the market. Look at the table of metals nobody elses compares. Also they have a 2 yr warranty on parts and limited liftetime on the exchanger. Nobody else has this type of warranty.
Also, it you go with the new Vitodens 200. The burner continually looks at gas pressure and gas mixtures and adjusts to fire at its optimum peak. The boiler also condenses like crazy. Your flue gas temp with only be 15 degrees higher than you return water temp. This boiler can also be vented many different ways and to over 200' away.
I haven't even gotten into the control. I'll leave that up to you. If you would like some info in it, ie, lit and manuals just e-mail me and I will forward them to you. We cannot post PDF files on this site.

Do you have access

@ August 21, 2009 6:35 PM in Anyone familier with using a Vitodens 200 with external DHW pump?

To the back end of the web site. If so, it's there. Also, we are selling the new 200's and all you now need is to order the sensor for domestic hot water. No more pump module.

Wall Hung Boiler

@ August 21, 2009 6:29 PM in wall hung boiler for radiant

I prefer Viessmann. I truly believe it is the best wall hung on the market. Hands down it's heat exchanger utilitizes the highest grade of stainless steel vs it's competition. It has a better warranty then it's competition.
You state you need 50,000 btu's how many different water temps do you need? Is the boiler only doing the heating or also taking care of your domestic hot water needs?

You Have to Use

@ August 21, 2009 6:40 AM in Anyone familier with using a Vitodens 200 with external DHW pump?

Viessmanns DHW Kit. Suggest you get on the phone and find one. No way out of it. I don't have my book with me this morning or I would give you the part number. On the new Vitodens 200 you do not need this.
Since we are unable to post PDF's I can't  post the manual. In about a 1/2hr from now I will be unavail. It is also not avail on [url=http://www.viessmann-us.com]www.viessmann-us.com but you have to be a partner to get to the back side of the site.

I always keep 2 window open

@ August 20, 2009 8:53 PM in Reply Posting Question.

Sometimes you don't get the message you are replying to below the box I'm typing in right now. Sometimes you do get it. For instance your post that I replied to is not below this box. The last post I replied to was.  That was a feature I liked in the old wall. That way you could reply to the posts questions and follow them. I'm like you phone rings, one of you children ask you a question and the next thing you know you lost you train of thought. So now I keep 2 tabs open for this site so I can go back and forth to re-read the post. It's a pain.

Space is a question

@ August 20, 2009 7:50 PM in old home retrofit emitter design

he needs to give more information on. Could it be the height that's a problem. What's stonger or weaker have anything to do with it if you can overcome the heat loss that he hasn't done yet. While the panel board only puts out 205bts at 180 degrees unlike fin-tube at 590/600 you can reset it a whole heck of alot better and have better zone conrol (meaning comfort) than the fin-tube. I still don't believe that there is no base moulding going around the perimeter of the room. I would like to know what total footage of base moulding is going in the room. The panel board will work much better with his exisiting system the fin-tube.

Keep it Simple

@ August 20, 2009 7:42 PM in Indirect heat loss

I take it this unit qualifies for the federal tax credit. So start there. Also how about the fact that the boiler is OFF in the summer months. No need to heat up that boiler. If your unit is like the Noritz we have had a huge success with, the burner modulates. It only makes the hot water you need when you need it. No standing pilot like the boiler (if that is the boiler installed).
You have to sell the convience while showing savings in terms the customer can understand. Calculating btus' and trying to get someone that doesn't know what a btu means is like when DNA evidence first started. People get overwhelmed and tune you off. They can see that their boiler is off in the summer time and can grasp that. They can understand the instantaneous only comes on when you need water because they can see that and you can show them the pilot doesn't stay on.  Just my two cents.