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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 8, 2014

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Do the Heat Loss

@ October 15, 2009 9:30 PM in Radiant vs Efficient Furnace

Take the last job you just did and do a radiant loss vs a hot air loss. I never said AFUE. I have less of a heat loss for radiant period. The infiltration factor for forced hot air increases due to the amount of convection that is produced with forced air. This convection promotes a faster loss of energy through outside panels, windows or doors.
In radiant we have little to zero convection thus slowing our infiltration. This gives us a lesser required heat loss to overcome. So we need a smaller heating plant to overcome our loss versus yours. Meaning we burn less energy.
The heat loss difference is 35%. Let me ask you this. Take a 3,000 sqft house, well insulated, good windows and doors. Nothing fancy just typical. Generally what size furnace would you put in?

Before Boiler Choice

@ October 15, 2009 9:14 PM in Radiant install questions

How do you plan on controlling the radiant? What are you doing for domestic hot water? Curious before I give my boiler choice.

Size for 180

@ October 15, 2009 9:00 PM in Water Temp. to use Sizing Baseboard Heat

Use the 610 a foot for 180. If you boiler water temp is leaving 185 your return water temp should be 165. Don't lower the water temp unless you plan on doing a heat loss of all the other rooms and making sure that the footage of board in those rooms can overcome the loss at 170 degree water temp.  Don't worry about pipe loss. Worry about supply/return temp.

Couple of questions

@ October 15, 2009 8:50 PM in Pump SIze

Does that 300' count from the manifold and back to it or is there 300' in the floor and then leader lengths from and to the manifold? Are you running 100 percent water or is their anti-freeze in the system? Max loop length on 1/2" is 300' so you are way out on the curve. May have to use a TA009 or a Grunfos 26-99 depending on the anwser to the questions above. Keep in mind that we do not add up all the loops on the manifold. We only need to overcome loop that requires the highest head and flowrate. If we can overcome that we can overcome the others.


@ October 15, 2009 8:34 PM in Is an ODR really helpfull

Dump the coil, add an Indirect and zone priorty. I use Taco so in your case add another zone for the indirect and use a  ZVC-404EXP Zone Control then add the Taco PC700 reset card that plugs into the zone control. It's a simple install for a simple system like yours. Use the energy you all ready have being produced and are paying for. Don't add more energy usage as you will be with the elec wtr htr.  Rule of thumb, for every 3 degrees I can run my system below 180 degrees I save 1 percent of fuel.

Size the board

@ October 15, 2009 8:26 PM in Water Temp. to use Sizing Baseboard Heat

For what temp you need at your design temp. In my case here in NY my design temp is 0. See the chart I attached for the ratings. The lower the water temp you start with the lower the out-put of the board so the more footage of board you will need to overcome the heat loss at your desgin temp.


@ October 10, 2009 6:01 PM in Ok to transplant a burner

Can be set up with the proper combustion equipment. Before you make a decision I would suggest you give Burnham a call. That boiler may be covered or atleast a portion of it's value under warranty. It is handled a couple of ways. They will send a replacement jacket block but the contractor will have to strip your current boiler of the burner, aquastat and the other essentials and put them on the block. They also offer a rebate on warranty boilers. They would rather see you up-grade to the new V8H or MPO. Speak to them prior to doing anything. The V7 series of boilers had a mass leaking problem. Let me guess, it's leaking 2nd section mid.

Rob is correct

@ October 6, 2009 3:45 PM in boiler replacement help

If you really want to promote condensing do not pipe primary/secondary. Use a hydro-seperator (low loss header). 

Mod/Con is NOT

@ October 4, 2009 4:38 PM in Suggestions?

of the ?. I have some small last version Vitodens 100's that I want to get rid of. Drop me an e-mail.

NoOutdoor Reset

@ October 4, 2009 9:20 AM in Why the difference between these 2 boiler bids?

I agree on not putting the boiler on outdoor reset but I would def run 2 heating curves here. A high temp curve for the fin tube and a lower temp curve for the cast iron. Could add a Taco RMB and set a different curve for the cast iron. This would eliminate the pirmary secondary piping (it's done within itself) and it's very easy to wire. There is a very nice video on Taco's web site. Wouldn't hurt to take a look.

Here is the laymens anwser

@ October 3, 2009 6:53 AM in Radiant vs Efficient Furnace

Your question has 2 different anwsers. First, when looking at AFUE you are looking at that piece of equipments efficiency not the heating systems efficiency so I'm going to give you the simple anwser.
You need 35% less energy to heat a space radiantly versus forced hot air. If you do a heat loss for both types of systems you will find you need a smaller heating appliance with radiant then with forced hot air. Whether they both are 95% AFUE is not dictating how much fuel you will burn with each system. If my heat loss is less with radiant then I burn less energy becuase my required btu design load is much less.
Now, with that said, there are numerous ways with radiant that I can make my "system efficiency" (how I use the btu's produced by the heating equipment) more efficient where with forced hot air there really aren't.
Everyone get's caught up in AFUE on equipment. That is only one part of a heating system. How you get the heat, deliver the heat and hold the heat are just as and maybe more important than the equipment itself.
Radiant heat is just a term describing a type of heat and every job can be designed in many ways depending on budget and what the customer/contractor are trying to get out of the system. I hate the umbrella term "radiant heat."
Me and you could both have radiant heat but mine could be a much different type of system than yours. Where as with forced hot air every system is pretty much the same.

You must have not seen or heard

@ September 25, 2009 3:38 PM in Mod Con Annual Maint

of the new Vitodens 200  recently released in August or the new Vitodens 100 released in July. Price Point is right there and I can pull the burner off the boiler in about 3 minutes. 5 Screws and your in. No more pump inside like the older Vitodens. The control far exceeds triangles.

Pex is Pex

@ September 25, 2009 11:54 AM in pex question please

I agree to a point "Pex A" does have advantages of the others though. The fitting system is just as important as the tubing itself. Some of the "b" and "c" guys  are beginning to see so problems associated with the crimp style fittng approach where the fitting is not holding up to agressive water as the walls of those ftgs are not as large as the "A" guy.
With the "A" guy the tubing itself along with a ring made of the same material forms the joint vs a forced joint with some type of metal band. It may not be so critical in a plbg application but on a heating application I wouln't be comfortable with a crimp type fitting system. I'm not saying it won't work or fail over time but the "A" guy use to have a crimp type system for a little while and found some long terms problems associated with it so they stopped using that type of system.

200 Info

@ September 25, 2009 11:28 AM in Vitodends 200 Lamda Pro

This is just about everything that is in print on the boiler you specified. Happy reading.
You must use a LLH with the 200. There is a sensor in the header that sends feedback to the boiler control. Also, the LLH promotes better condensing.


@ September 24, 2009 7:44 PM in Myson Radiators - are they any good?

Nice pic, have you had a chance to get a look at the new boiler?  The word is not until Jan for you guys on the west coast. I'm sure you'll love the 35% drop bring it right in line with everyone else but yet offering much more than everyone else.

My advice

@ September 23, 2009 8:51 PM in Too Many Choices

Recalculate that heat loss. I don;t know what part fo the country you are in  but I'm in NY and we design for 0 and that load seems awful high compared to the sq footage you are giving. Even if I take the old fudge factor of 40btu sqft I wouldn't come up with that load. Boiler wise, I would take a look at Viessmanns new Vitodens 200. Would only need 1 boiler. Yes you would use a LLH (hydro seperator). But the boiler gives you the abilty to cut down adding other controls. The LLH also has a sensor in it that will talk to the boiler and promote condensing.
The other great feature is that the burner/gas vlv continually looks at incoming gas pressure and mixture and adjusts as those change keeping the boiler burning clean and at it's optimum efficiciency. Also, 2 yrs parts, limited lifetime on heat exchanger. No other wall hung in this country has these offerings in their boiler line. Period.

Seperator Sizing

@ September 20, 2009 7:22 PM in Hydro Seperators

Here is a piece of reading that should help you out.

Take the Vitodens

@ September 20, 2009 7:16 PM in Mod Con Annual Maint

I'm going to assume by the models you gave that you are talking about the new Vitodens 200. I'm assuming because that is the closet product that matches the model numbers you provided.
If you are comparing that boiler to the triangle its a no brainer. The Vitodens hands down. It's simple
2 yrs parts vs 1 yrs parts. Limitied lifetime warranty vs 10yr warranty.
The Vitodens 200 continually looks at incoming gas mixture and pressure to keep firing clean and at it highest efficicency. The Triangle does not do this.
The Vitodens control is multi function. Meaning you can do what you want with it. Want phone access, we can do that. Need mult water temps we can do that. Want solar, it' set up for that. Want to remote the control upstairs so you can see and control the boiler. We can do that too. The triangle, sorry but you have to start purchasing other controls.
I do have a question? What is the application? I ask because the size of the boiler I believe you have is covered by the Vitodens 100 if this is a 1 temp heating system. That boiler fits better but you do give up the control and burner/gas vlv feature.
I''ve attached the manuals to both,...Happy reading.


@ September 18, 2009 6:30 PM in Hydro Seperators

Mikey maybe this PDF file can help you out.

Low Loss Header

@ September 16, 2009 7:43 PM in Hydro Seperators

How have you been Bob. Hope all is well. I agree with you on the LLH. I would rather that than pri/sec piping. With my experience with the LLH with Viessmann the LLH promotes better condesing in the boiler than the pri/sec.

Before you make

@ September 13, 2009 7:20 PM in Old Radiators, New Boiler, and Slime & Sediment

a final decision. Take a look at Viessmann's new Vitodens 200. I am a big fan of the boiler line and most will same I'm a homer on this but just look at what this boiler will give you over the Triangle.
If you use the Vitdoens 200 you will have to use a low loss header (your hydro seperator). This gives you the seperation from the system and the boiler but there is also a sensor that gives feedback to the boiler to promote condensing without having to give up the efficency you are looking for. The boiler continually looks at incoming gas mixture and pressure adjusting accordingly as gas and pressure change allowing the boiler is to keep firing at it's highest efficiency. The control which is standard will control a high temp curve (your baseboard) plus will run 2 motorized mixing vlvs (radiators and the radiant) on 2 different curves without you having to use a secondary control as you will have to use with the Triangle. You will have to use an indirect with this boiler and the control has priorty in it.  The control is also already set up for phone access if your customer desires to purch the enable control.
The boiler has a better warranty than they triangle and you will find it is a perfect match for the application. I have attached the tech data manual and the low loss header manaul. Drop me a line if you have any other questions.

If this isn't a job

@ September 13, 2009 5:39 PM in TT-110 to p/s or not

for the New Viessmann Vitodens 200 I don't know what is. You have already picked the boiler but in this case I would look at using a Calefi Hydro Seperator.