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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 29, 2014

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Is he the same

@ August 13, 2009 6:36 AM in Indirect hw tank separate circ?

old guy that doesn't t use a zone control with priority? You should be fine with the zone valve providing your boiler circ (system circ)  is sized properly.

It's a water heater

@ August 13, 2009 6:25 AM in Condensing Boiler versus Navien

Wasn't to familar with the tankless heater you spoke about so I went to the web site to check it out. My first thought is that it is not listed as a boiler its a water heater. I would be curious to what grade of stainless the heat exchanger is made of.
I couldn't open the installation manual on their web site but I would be curious as to see the piping arrangement for a domestic/heating system.

In understand

@ August 13, 2009 6:13 AM in Best strategy for combined heating / cooling thermostat

My only thought is that if we are trying to share an installation manual, spec sheet, wirirng diagram, etc everyone on the thread would have to e-mail you to get it. in order to see your thought as stated in your post. Like above of example...Maybe another contractor after reading the spec sheets may find it helpful to them or maybe he has an opinion on it.  Just my 2 cents.

With the new Site

@ August 12, 2009 9:16 PM in Best strategy for combined heating / cooling thermostat

I am unable to post PDF attachements so I cant send you specs to check out. Uponor (Wirsbo) make a heat/cool state that should work just fine. They also make a zone control that you can use. You do have to add a seperate transformer though. I pretty sure you should be able to use a taco ZVC zone control also.

Dan Can we not post PDF files?

@ August 12, 2009 8:10 PM in Welcome!

Tried loading a PDF as an attachmen. Kicked me out saying had to be a .gif, .jpeg


@ August 12, 2009 8:04 PM in Best strategy for combined heating / cooling thermostat

You can use these with a Taco Zone Control. How many acuators are we talking about?

Do You Know

@ August 12, 2009 7:40 PM in About makup water supply.

what article or where John's thought on this are. I'd like to give it a read.

Thanks for adding the category Dan.

@ August 12, 2009 7:22 PM in Thanks for adding the category Dan.

I now have the greatest site and resource to send not only my contractors but homeowners that are looking for information and have questions on radiant heat. 


@ August 12, 2009 7:14 PM in Welcome!

Now your showing off :). Thanks for the add. I do have question. On the old site when someone repsonded to the thread we posted on you recevied an e-mail keeping you up on the thread without having to log on the site. Do we not have that option anymore if we would like.

Dan...With Radiant

@ August 12, 2009 6:45 PM in Welcome!

and high efficiency becoming much more popular with contractors and the homeowner would it be possible to get a category for it so those posts wouldn't get buried in the basic heating category.  Would make it alot easier for us that specialize in that to converse, Just a thought..Site is great.
Best Regards,

My 2 cents

@ August 12, 2009 6:30 PM in About makup water supply.

Is to leave the feed vlv on. I'm not familiar with John's article or quote so I don't know what context it what said in. I do know that in the 20 plus yrs I've been in the biz  I have never known or seen one shut off.
Could you tell me what article or book that John wrote that stated this. I'd love to read it.

Best Regards,

Took me a while

@ August 12, 2009 3:48 PM in Welcome!

to climb over that old wall but I made it. Thanks for the help getting logged in Dan. New site looks great. You deserve a big A+

You Want a Low Mass

@ August 3, 2009 8:52 PM in Really Confused

3-pass boiler. Take a look at Biasi It's an italian 3-pass sold a few of them. It's actually a nice little boiler. Look at the B10 Series that's their introductory 3-pass then you step up to the SG Series.

I really

@ August 3, 2009 8:45 PM in Really Confused

can't give you an honest answer to your question concerning boiler size without seeing the job. The 2 rooms you speak about that are 200 sqft require based on my estimation 5,000 btus or 8.47 (9') of baseboard. If you give me then actual room dimensons with outside walls, windows, ceiling height, what's above, what's below and wall R-Value I could give you an honest answer based on your information only concerning those 2 rooms. Can you tell me how many sqft your basement is? What are the heat emitters in the rest of the house. Can you take a picture of one of them and post?

Sizing Radiation

@ August 3, 2009 6:32 PM in how can I calculate BTU sizing of Arco cast iron radiators by Am

See the post totally confused. That will confuse you. Go to see if this can help you out.

I totally agree

@ August 3, 2009 5:55 PM in Really Confused

Can't say much else. There comes a time where your experience out weighs the book and in this case that's exactly what I mean. I can see for new construction when you are on the ground floor desgining a system but on a replacement experience is what counts.


@ August 3, 2009 5:51 PM in Really Confused

A heat loss is important and I'm not diminishing that point. I think that sometimes people get so involved in the book way they forget what real world educational experiences bring to every contractor. If you truly want to take a "system approach" not a boiler approach you would do both the heat loss and measure the heat emitters (baseboard, radiators, etc.). The other question I would pose to those that state a heat loss is the anwser. What if I have hydro-air (Air Handler in the Attice to provided cooling and heating from a zone off the boiler). Do I use the heat loss or the btu out-put of that air handler. See, hydro air tends to oversize a heating system

I live in NY

@ August 3, 2009 5:45 PM in Really Confused

An the average heat loss on a basic ranch upto 2000 sqft house is really between 40 and 50k. You may install what you are comfortable with and I will never say otherwise. It fits your business and you make a respectable living with it. God Bless. System 2000 has done a great marketing job hands down but I can do the same thing with a 83% Peerless WBV03 that a System 2000 does with a Honeywell aquatrol at less the cost

Ok - Lets try this

@ August 3, 2009 2:55 PM in Really Confused

You get a phone call for an estimate on a boiler. You get there and there is this old 1950's Amercian Standard Oil Boiler. You walk around the house getting your room, window, outside walls etc and do the heat loss. You get a heat loss of 45,000. That is the average heat loss here in my area. Now I come to that same job. I measure the baseboard and come up with 150'. That boards total max out-put is 88,500 btus'. What American Pin-Style Oil boiler are you going to use that won't be oversized? Your best bet is probably a MPO84 or Vitorond 100 VR1-22 or Buderus G11528. You have no choice but to use a 3-pass boiler in this case if you don't want to be oversized. Now we get back to my point. A heat loss is useless in this case unless you are doing both the loss and measuring the heat emitters if you want to overcome an over-sized boiler. In my case atleast I can come closer to matching the system load then you can. So, just as measuring my emitters may have a glitch so does your heat loss. If we want to have an absolutely non-oversized system then we have to take a system approach not a boiler approach. I don't want to come across that I'm into bad boiler sizing because I'm not. If anything I'm a firm believer in a system approach but not every homeowner has the cash to do it. If I had it my way every American pin-style boiler and those with tankless coils (coming sooner then you think) would be abolished.


@ August 3, 2009 11:02 AM in Really Confused

I will say I PREFER a heat loss but in the real world it doesn't happen. You can lead the horse to the water but you can't make him drink it. I will put the same question to you. What's the worse poison? Measure the radiation or take the label rating off the boiler? Your example above is exactly 100 percent correct when a mod/con boiler and/or outdoor reset is used and I stated that in my above post. I don't believe it is a poor practice in the aspect that I've had contractors go to another supply house and buy a boiler because I wanted them to go back and do a loss. They just don't care. They want to get paid and unfortunatly in the real world that is what's out there. You have to do the best you can with what you can and what information is available to you. Do you ask all your wholesalers for a heat loss/radiant design before you sell them the material? I doubt it. Would you not sell the material or would you give your best advice and make the sale?

I disagree

@ August 3, 2009 10:13 AM in Really Confused

to a point. As I stated in my above post. I prefer to do a loss. While you say heat emitters have no bearing I disagree. They are the better posion then the lable off the boiler. Let's talk about what happens in the real world, everyday. Sometimes we tend to shove our heads so far into the book we forget about being street smart. Every situation has to be taken into consideration. While you may do a heat loss on every job you comes across in the real world it does not happen. Let's me ask you...Which of these 2 poisions is the best solution when you can't get heat loss information out of the contractor. Size off the lable on the boiler or measure the heat emitters? I would say measure the heat emitters. Why? Because they worked for the 20 yrs they have been installed to heat the space at 180 degree wtr temp. The boiler could have been over sized though. How many btu's are in a foot of fin tubed baseboard at 180 degrees? 590, 600? So let's say for every 100' that's 60,000 btus. How many feet of board is in the average 1,500 sqft home? 150 ft maybe that equates to 90,000 btu's. How many 90,00 btu oil boilers are out there? Ok so 200' of board that's 120,00 btus. Both situtations above call for a basic 3 section oil boiler but maybe your a 3-pass guy so I could use 2 different boilers. You say a heat loss is the only way to properly size a boiler in a replacement application and I disagree. Are you telling me that on every job you do a heat loss that you can size the boiler better then I can by measuring heat emitters? The examples above blow that theory out of the water. Now if you want to use the argument that you do a heat loss, you measure all the heat emitters and set a heating curve then I will buy the argument that a heat loss is 100 percent necessary on every job for that type of application. Out of your last 10 jobs how many do you have on a heating curve? How many boilers did you have to down fire? Please give me an example using my heat emitter theory where it wouldn't have worked on any of those last 10 jobs. Heck, give me the total amount of footage of board or edr of your last job and I will give you back a boiler size and I bet it's the same size boiler you put in. What firing rate did you leave that boiler in? I'll even make it harded for me. Give me the room sizes in sqft, no outside wall, windows or doors and I'll even do it that way. I'll even give you the heat loss but be honest with me and tell me how close or off I was. My point here is that a heat loss is not the only anwser and that while it is preferred it's only benifit on an existing job is if you want to set a heating curve.

Simple Anwser

@ August 3, 2009 9:09 AM in insullation beneath floor with radiant heat

The more r-value you have below the less inflitration you get. Sounds like your floor r-value is around a 1.5. As long as my r-value below is higher then the 1.5 you will get heat transfer. Min insulation r-value for joist heating is a the least an R-11. If your using Wirsbo's joist trak plates you insullate directly to the plate. The reason other mfs have the spacing is that they need to create convection in the joist bay to get the btu output through the floor. With joist trak plates you are actually transfering the heat absorbed by the plate directly to the floor not creating an oven in the joist bay.