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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 29, 2014

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The Head Loss

@ February 3, 2014 4:11 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.

Shown is for the pressure drop in the HX only! System flow rate doesn't change based on outdoor temp, water temp in the boiler does, it would if the boiler had a variable speed pump controlled by the boilers logic.. But we like to Americanize things on this side of the pond. Maybe you should call the place you purchased it at and get some professional help.

Boiler should have been piped primary secondary utilizing a low loss header period..

Its A Fixed Speed Pump

@ February 3, 2014 11:21 AM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.

You'd be flowing on the 35 degree rise 3.5gpm no matter what they temp is outside. How do you think you'd be over pumping the HX?

Time for

@ February 3, 2014 9:55 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

This system to be reversed engineering. Start from scratch with heat loss, capable emitter capacity, etc and then see what should actually have been installed and then see at what design temp the existing equipment begins to tap out.


@ January 31, 2014 9:28 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.

Think you better read a little more. It's a blanket statement for the 19/28/35 still have to look at the individual pumps curves..Hopefully my notes on Page 13 helps ya and your able to see them. Yes, this is the draft version TDM before the final was released so it may not be the same as the published.. Nothing changed from the HX pressure drop and flow rates.

Wrong Boiler Pump

@ January 31, 2014 7:51 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.

The 0015 is not a recommended boiler pump and if you look at it's curve and the pressure drop in the HX you will see that the pump will exceed the max flow rate of the boiler...Rigth pump is a Grundfos UPS15-58 as recommended in the manual. You'd being working with a boiler flow rate of
3.5gpm with the UPS15-58 on speed 1..

If you cannot expel the boiler/primary side flow rate, no matter what type of condensing boiler into the system side, you end up with elevated boiler return temps, ie, small delta. Now, say thank you to Americanization of European technology. This boiler across the pond utilizes a variable speed boiler pump but not here in the great old USA cause we have to dumb down technology so its affordable to all..

Return Temp?

@ January 31, 2014 12:19 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.

Loaded question...Boiler return or system return? The boiler does not display return temps. Your boiler side delta-t will always be a moving target dependent on what gpm the system side is pulling out of the boiler/primary side. Your boiler pump is a fixed speed pump moving a specific x gpm each and every time it comes on. So if it is moving 6gpm and your system side is only taking 2, the other 4 has no place to go except right back up into the boiler return.

What which boiler? What's your boiler pump? What is your system side total flow rate and each zones flow rate? Did you notice this when only 1 zone was on, all zones?


@ January 31, 2014 9:27 AM in Thinking of replacing existing pump for a Taco Bumble bee pump

That's why the boiler should have been properly piped primary secondary. Sure hope you never need more then 6.2gpm...LWCO is useless so it doesn't matter...


@ January 31, 2014 7:36 AM in Thinking of replacing existing pump for a Taco Bumble bee pump

LWCO is in the wrong place though it doesn't matter because the boiler won't fire anyway if you don't make the flow switch..With the boiler needing a min flow rate of 1.7gpm across the HX and you are not piped pri/sec wouldn't recommend it unless your going to run it in a constant pressure mode.

What's with that zone valve and the ball valve? Some sort of by-pass?

It's Not

@ January 29, 2014 4:18 PM in Time to Upgrade my Modcon

The high end of the modulation rate that causes short cycling its the low end. Boiler will never go to 100% unless you need it but you are limited on the low end. Don't know what your DHW demand is but why not use a Vitodens B2HA-19 or a small Loch WHN the low ends are like 11K btu/hr, add storage on DHW with a 140 tank temp and mix down.

You boys are

@ January 28, 2014 10:29 PM in System Running. I am extremely grateful!

From Connecticut. Was born and raised in Westerly RI and worked in Groton for years. Moved to NY 10 years ago..

No Need To Adjust

@ January 28, 2014 10:11 PM in Burner regulation

With Lamda on Vitodens, the boiler is able to adjust gas independent of air. It will always burn clean. Has to. If combustion came out of the range, burner would shut down. Here is the other thing that is missed when it comes to Lamda. CONDENSING!!!!!!!

If have Vitodens out there pouring at 160 supply. Why, lamda...


@ January 26, 2014 9:04 AM in Are Taco ZoneSentry valves noisy?

Since the valve is a true full port with no restrictions with a high CV rating unlike others and uses stored power to close is it the valve making the noise or the fact that the zone is unbalanced and your over pumping?

That Looks Like

@ January 24, 2014 9:51 PM in System Running. I am extremely grateful!

A newer Viessmann Vitodens 200 B2HA. Why no LLH Sensor? The other thing is the Spirovent isn't doing anything for your system side. Remove the coin vent at the top of the LLH. Once you unscrew it out, your left with a 1/2" IPS female tap. Use a short 1/2" x 2 Nipple, 1/2 x 1/8 coupling and screw an automatic vent. Velocity slows down inside a low loss header and any air will rise to the top. The auto vent will get it out of there.

Now Put

@ January 20, 2014 11:29 AM in Burnham/Alpha marriage?

0-10vdc in both the Alpine and the Alpha and we'd be good to go. Its a nice start to see a boiler mfg step up and offer the upgrade.

Way Over Sized

@ January 19, 2014 10:07 PM in Boiler Correct Size

I have 1800 sqft. 1968 construction, R11 Walls, updated windows. Design for 0 degrees. Heat Loss is just a tad over 36,000...Been doing heat losses and designs for 25 years and if your home had that bad of an infiltration rate you have bigger problems then an over sized boiler.

Those Plates

@ January 15, 2014 12:56 PM in 3/8" aluminum pans? [and 3/8" manifolds for that matter]

Are also 4' pre drilled and ready to go. What's it costing you in time to fool around with those out of date plates and getting them installed? You do factor that cost in right? As for the insulation. You best be leaving an air gap with those flimsy plates. You need convection to drive the heat transfer. Lower the convection you lower floor response time, ruin your chance at even floor surface temp and could possibly even not be able to reach set point.

You didn't put in insulation?

I Beg To Differ

@ January 15, 2014 10:59 AM in 3/8" aluminum pans? [and 3/8" manifolds for that matter]

The industry standard has never been 1/2" going back the late eighties, early nineties all we used was 3/8" and 3/8" plates. The #1 reason contractors use 1/2" plates is that they think they can get more btu/hr out of 1/2" then 3/8". Most also combine rooms in loop lengths in joist heating applications, they like to max out at that 300', less manifolds.. In the end its all about cost.

Those cheap tin plates suck, you still need to leave a 2" air gap between plate and insulation, they tick, tick, tick, you end up with higher water temps as well as uneven floor surface temps. You're still relying on convection in the bay to produce the btu/hr the floor needs.

With the nice extruded alum plates, such as, Joist Trak or Climate Trak, you can insulate up to the plate. Your heating transfer is direct plate to floor, no noise. Allows for lower water temp, less noisy systems, faster response time and a better distribution of even floor surface temp.

Chasing a Ghost

@ January 13, 2014 7:38 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

I've come to the realization that we are all chasing a ghost here.

Your Piped

@ January 11, 2014 8:53 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

Primary/Secondary. That means the system pump has no influence good or bad on the boiler pump. Doubt you damaged the HX. So at 55 your ok but at low temps not. Curve needs to be adjusted and the. I would start putting my pennies away to have all the baseboard replaced with a higher output board. You ca. utilize the same footprint, ie a 5' of hi cap fir a 5' of regular residential. High capacity board is roughly 2" higher and will provide roughly 810 btu/hr per sqft of board.

I have some concerns

@ January 11, 2014 8:07 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

With the readings of boiler supply return/system side supply return. If the boiler is at a 20 degree delta-t given that we know the fixed speed boiler pump is moving 7.3gpm and the system side has if I recall 80 feet or so of baseboard and also giving a 20 degree delta-t would I not then be exhausting more btu/hr out into the house then the baseboard can deliver using 180 degree water?

The system side must be pulling the 7,3gpm around the train track. Its has to. Your piped pri/sec. If it wasn't boiler return temps would be elevated and you would not be getting a 20 degree delta-t.

The other concern with these reading from the system side is that system pump looks to be a Taco 007. We really haven't talked about system head. The operating curve of that pump to move 7.3gpm is a tad over 8' of head. Both zones would have have the same exact head loss to get that unless one was over pumping and one under pumping to provide a mixed return temp that gives an exact 20 degree delta-t.

We spend time with a pencil and piece of paper to make that happen and these guys just slapped it together. I have a better chance of getting the winning lotto ticket then this happening,

Don't Be Concerned

@ January 9, 2014 12:29 PM in Viessmann Vitodens 200 or Triangle tube prestige solo

With the top end of the modulation rate, the boiler will never go there unless you need it. With Vitodens you can limit the modulation rate for heating independent of domestic hot water so dependent on your domestic needs a B2HA-28 may be the better fit. Your giving up a little on a low end of the modulation rate so in lieu of using a low loss header you could do a small Caleffi 25 Gallon Thermocon buffer take to take its place.

As far as HX goes. Viessmann makes their own, its not a gionnoni. Has a limited lifetime warranty, constructed of 316 Ti Staniless and pretty much bullet proof. If your after a combi then look at the Vitodens 222-F. It will out perform that Triangle Excellence and the tank is also constructed of the same 316 Ti as the boiler heat exchanger.

I'm Confused

@ January 8, 2014 7:44 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

I can't tell from the pic what's from what, its so small.

Can you label those temp readings:

Boiler Supply
Boiler Return

System Supply
System Return
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