Joined on December 29, 2008
Last Post on April 23, 2014
@ November 30, 2013 6:14 PM in Navien ch 240That is the concern, its system supply water temp when your system side flow rate is larger then the boiler flow rate. A btu doesn't care about 180 or 120 degree water its still a btu. Using HD's 120K example on a typical 20 delta (which never happens in reality).
(5 X180) + (7 X 160) = 12x
900 + 1120 = 2,020 / 12 = 168
Will 168 degree water get the job done and are we happy with an 8 degree system side delta? Iron by the way, the boiler is a tee, what goes in must come out no different then your closely spaced tees.. If I get 5 from the boiler, 5 goes back in. The 7 are what's left from the 12 in system side return after 5 went back to the boiler return.
The difference between Navien and everyone else from an operation standpoint is that it does not recapture flue gas condensate, thus not picking up loss latent heat from the flue.
@ November 30, 2013 5:40 PM in Maximizing efficiency of a mod con questionUser a buffer tank as your pri/sec, ie Low loss header. Caleffi has a Thermocon 25 Gallon and that will end your short cycling issues along side with sizing your primary or boiler pump for a larger delta, ie 35 degrees.
Since the boiler has minimal pressure drop and a fixed speed circulator operates on its curve your best option for a boiler pump is a B&G Vario because of its ability to operate at gpm and heads lower then an Alpha, Bumblee Bee. All variable speeds pumps still operate on curves, its just a matter of how many they have and they all have limitations.
Second I'd get rid of the zone pumps. Zoning with fixed speed pumps is no more then a recipe for over pumping. Use Taco Zone Sentry's and pick the best variable speed ecm pump for the job and call it a day.
@ November 20, 2013 12:05 PM in Radiant floor heat not heating properlyWhat are the floor coverings in the bedrooms? Carpet? I see no mixing device in the boiler pics so this system is running on one water temp. Where's the heat loss and design to say one water temp is what you need?
@ November 16, 2013 8:29 PM in ViessmannPaul they are on the list. HDE where did you here any of what your posting?
@ November 1, 2013 6:39 PM in HydroMXThose same things. Have someone asking us if we are interested in it and trying to see if anyone has used it.
@ November 1, 2013 8:03 AM in HydroMXWhat concentration of this juice is water? What about dissimilar metals in a system? Gots a million questions on this sutff. Not getting many replies, really looking for someone who has experience using this potion.
@ October 31, 2013 11:52 AM in HydroMXAnyone have any experience with this product? Thoughts?
@ October 29, 2013 12:51 PM in NG Combi Boiler versus indirect tank and boiler setupNot very professional. Just some advice. What's a heater? I know of a boiler, furnace, tank type water heater, on demand water heater not sure what a heater is..Why would I need one, if I didn't have one?
@ October 29, 2013 7:12 AM in Rumor has itModel 19 is avail right now. Its the 35's that will not be avail until around Thanksgiving. I have the pricing and I'm in NJ so drop me an email. If your a homeowner I can hook you up with a Viessmann Partner contractor, if a contractor, I'll quote ya.
Putting the 19 in my house. My DHW demand is basically one shower at a time. Scrapping the zoning, slapping a Vitotrol 300A in place of the T-Stat, piping it direct and letting it fly. My heat loss is only 36K and I've changed out all my base board to hi cap so can start my curve for a 140 degree water temp at design.
@ October 27, 2013 4:54 PM in Need recommendation for manual reset high limit setting on Ultra boilerJust tired of consumers in general, whom after choosing the cheapest installer come here to complain about their installation and/or contractor, ask for the solution or guidance, when they had the solution the entire time but did't want to pay for it.
@ October 27, 2013 2:28 PM in Need recommendation for manual reset high limit setting on Ultra boilerBoiler is a heating plant, period, end of sentence!!! It is a piece of equipment that produces heat and has no responsibility as to the system side. If the boiler is operating it isn't broken and the mfg end of the chain is done. Since when did the boiler mfg size, design and recommend the radiant heat? It did not. No different then the cheap HDMI cables that come with that nice 60 plus inch flat in the living room, it works right? Does that manual tell you they are the cheap cables and to go out and buy some monsters because the pic will be 10 times better?
Its funny how our industry is scrutinized so deeply by the blind and internet educated DYI consumer. Bet your friends installer was the cheapest guy that bid the job.
@ October 27, 2013 11:31 AM in outdoor reset and thermostat setbackAre you setting back the thermostat or the heating circuit via the boiler. What is the nighttime setback in the boiler control and for what time period. The control can be programmed for a heating schedule just like a thermostat. Sounds like your setting back a room t-stat and not the boiler. If you are how does the boiler know you set back? It doesn't so it doesn't know to shift the curve itself.
Is this a Vitodens 200? Vitola 200?
@ October 27, 2013 11:16 AM in Need recommendation for manual reset high limit setting on Ultra boilerA high limit not all the other items of concern you just posted. A piping diagram in a manual is conceptual. If I installed a low loss header instead of 2 closely spaced tee's and didn't use a Spirovent or Air Scoop would I be wrong? Nope, If my expansion tank and feed are piped on the primary side below the boiler pump am I wrong? Nope.
If I put my secondary pump on the return and my zone valves on the supply am I wrong? Nope. In other words the manual is not a bible to installation, its merely a map that can be adjusted, providing you still maintain proper piping practice.
If I decided I didn't want to use that boiler/primary pump that came with the boiler am I wrong? Nope. My point is a piping diagram is conceptual and can deviated from providing you still maintain proper piping principals. I don't need a high limit for my radiant under all conditions and honestly one is rarely if every used. Why? Proper piping, control and installation.
@ October 26, 2013 10:48 AM in Viessmann & Siggy differ on efficiency at high return temp?That's the setpoint the boiler is using to calculate the curve. You could graph the months of the heating season with daily daytime and nightime temps and come up with your operating percentages. Might not be 100% accurate but will give you a idea of where you'd be running most of the heating season.
@ October 26, 2013 10:42 AM in Need recommendation for manual reset high limit setting on Ultra boilerDon't see where that is an installation error. You stated the contractor missed the need. Nothing is missed. I'm going to assume your friend has the heat loss and radiant design right? Your dealing with a low temp and high temp radiant so they both have mixing valves correct? The boiler has the ability to cap off the highest supply temp correct? The boiler has an adjustable high limit correct? So where's the need?
I'm only stating these because your up here putting the blame on the contractor, ever think there was a reason why? The piping schematics in the manual are CONCEPTUAL!
@ October 22, 2013 12:14 PM in Viessmann & Siggy differ on efficiency at high return temp?Navien does not capture flue gas condensation to reclaim the loss latent heat. While it may condense it still doesn't reclaim lost btu/hr through the venting system. It also does not come ODR unless the installer purchases it separately. Navien, because it has a CAFUE vs an AFUE rating isn't held to the new Sept 2012 standard. That's the story to be told when competing against it. Your correct because he only posted one part of the Viessmann chart h left out the heating curve chart which is attached.
@ October 22, 2013 11:53 AM in Viessmann & Siggy differ on efficiency at high return temp?
@ October 22, 2013 11:44 AM in Viessmann & Siggy differ on efficiency at high return temp?I'll answer your question with a question? What controls the dew point? If I can control the dew point I can condense pretty much at all times, even above that magical 127-130 degree water temp line.
Maybe this will help you understand. Its a pretty good little article.
@ October 17, 2013 6:12 PM in Need help to select between System 2000 EK1 and Burnham MPO-IQ 115In a long time. Great marketing hype can't displace physic friends. All boilers mfg after Sept 2012 have thermal purge built into them. ITS THE LAW. Boiler will not fire until it sees less then 140 degree water or 2 minutes!!!!!! Hello, PRE_PURGE!!!!!!!!
Secondly, for every 3 degrees you can run a heating system with less then 180 degree water you save 1% of fuel, period, fact!
Low Mass (System 2000) High Mass (MPO) which one must fire more cycles?
Lastly, a boiler is no more then a heating plant. It makes energy period, that's its job. What's more important :
a. How You Make Energy
b. How You Use That Energy
c. Combination of Both
Looking at efficiency based on the boiler is like looking at MPG on car, both are dependent on lots of variables to get the best out of them.
I'll go for the high mass boiler, that cycles less and I can do a lot more with from an efficiency standpoint.
I'm done ranting now. This type of conversation is getting real old, like 15 years old when the Viessmann Vitola was the only true 3-pass around. Nobody got it then either except for few..
@ October 15, 2013 7:22 PM in Need help to select between System 2000 EK1 and Burnham MPO-IQ 115The System 2000 will save more fuel then the Burnham MPO. Both, no matter how you look at it, fire at a fixed rate, I can pre and post purge my pumps on the Bunrham no different then that EK. That Burnham will take 110 degree return water temp so with the cost of a simple plug in ODR card I can make it more efficient then that System 2000 at a heck of a lesser price.
I'd even go to the extent that one could take a Crown TWZ, standard pin boiler, add a Taco SR501-OR and make it just as or more efficient then that system 2000.
The equipment isn't a magic wand to fuel savings the installation is.
@ October 14, 2013 11:23 AM in new mod/con w/indirect question mockupNice software. What is it and where can I find it. Might want to keep this in your pocket in case you need it. See the Alpine article. I wouldn't be zoning out rather I'd be adding thermostatic valves, use an Alpha, run constant circulation and call it a day.
@ October 13, 2013 6:43 PM in Different take on tankless vs bufferedHas a min of 12 Input..You can cap off the high end of the modulation rate for heating independent of DHW. You also won't have to pri/sec pipe it either. Set the pump so the boiler works on off a 40 Rise and your boiler flow rate is only 3.1gpm.