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Chris

Chris

Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on August 23, 2014

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That Looks Like

@ January 24, 2014 9:51 PM in System Running. I am extremely grateful!

A newer Viessmann Vitodens 200 B2HA. Why no LLH Sensor? The other thing is the Spirovent isn't doing anything for your system side. Remove the coin vent at the top of the LLH. Once you unscrew it out, your left with a 1/2" IPS female tap. Use a short 1/2" x 2 Nipple, 1/2 x 1/8 coupling and screw an automatic vent. Velocity slows down inside a low loss header and any air will rise to the top. The auto vent will get it out of there.

Now Put

@ January 20, 2014 11:29 AM in Burnham/Alpha marriage?

0-10vdc in both the Alpine and the Alpha and we'd be good to go. Its a nice start to see a boiler mfg step up and offer the upgrade.

Way Over Sized

@ January 19, 2014 10:07 PM in Boiler Correct Size

I have 1800 sqft. 1968 construction, R11 Walls, updated windows. Design for 0 degrees. Heat Loss is just a tad over 36,000...Been doing heat losses and designs for 25 years and if your home had that bad of an infiltration rate you have bigger problems then an over sized boiler.

Those Plates

@ January 15, 2014 12:56 PM in 3/8" aluminum pans? [and 3/8" manifolds for that matter]

Are also 4' pre drilled and ready to go. What's it costing you in time to fool around with those out of date plates and getting them installed? You do factor that cost in right? As for the insulation. You best be leaving an air gap with those flimsy plates. You need convection to drive the heat transfer. Lower the convection you lower floor response time, ruin your chance at even floor surface temp and could possibly even not be able to reach set point.

You didn't put in insulation?

I Beg To Differ

@ January 15, 2014 10:59 AM in 3/8" aluminum pans? [and 3/8" manifolds for that matter]

The industry standard has never been 1/2" going back the late eighties, early nineties all we used was 3/8" and 3/8" plates. The #1 reason contractors use 1/2" plates is that they think they can get more btu/hr out of 1/2" then 3/8". Most also combine rooms in loop lengths in joist heating applications, they like to max out at that 300', less manifolds.. In the end its all about cost.

Those cheap tin plates suck, you still need to leave a 2" air gap between plate and insulation, they tick, tick, tick, you end up with higher water temps as well as uneven floor surface temps. You're still relying on convection in the bay to produce the btu/hr the floor needs.

With the nice extruded alum plates, such as, Joist Trak or Climate Trak, you can insulate up to the plate. Your heating transfer is direct plate to floor, no noise. Allows for lower water temp, less noisy systems, faster response time and a better distribution of even floor surface temp.

Chasing a Ghost

@ January 13, 2014 7:38 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

I've come to the realization that we are all chasing a ghost here.

Your Piped

@ January 11, 2014 8:53 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

Primary/Secondary. That means the system pump has no influence good or bad on the boiler pump. Doubt you damaged the HX. So at 55 your ok but at low temps not. Curve needs to be adjusted and the. I would start putting my pennies away to have all the baseboard replaced with a higher output board. You ca. utilize the same footprint, ie a 5' of hi cap fir a 5' of regular residential. High capacity board is roughly 2" higher and will provide roughly 810 btu/hr per sqft of board.

I have some concerns

@ January 11, 2014 8:07 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

With the readings of boiler supply return/system side supply return. If the boiler is at a 20 degree delta-t given that we know the fixed speed boiler pump is moving 7.3gpm and the system side has if I recall 80 feet or so of baseboard and also giving a 20 degree delta-t would I not then be exhausting more btu/hr out into the house then the baseboard can deliver using 180 degree water?

The system side must be pulling the 7,3gpm around the train track. Its has to. Your piped pri/sec. If it wasn't boiler return temps would be elevated and you would not be getting a 20 degree delta-t.

The other concern with these reading from the system side is that system pump looks to be a Taco 007. We really haven't talked about system head. The operating curve of that pump to move 7.3gpm is a tad over 8' of head. Both zones would have have the same exact head loss to get that unless one was over pumping and one under pumping to provide a mixed return temp that gives an exact 20 degree delta-t.

We spend time with a pencil and piece of paper to make that happen and these guys just slapped it together. I have a better chance of getting the winning lotto ticket then this happening,

Don't Be Concerned

@ January 9, 2014 12:29 PM in Viessmann Vitodens 200 or Triangle tube prestige solo

With the top end of the modulation rate, the boiler will never go there unless you need it. With Vitodens you can limit the modulation rate for heating independent of domestic hot water so dependent on your domestic needs a B2HA-28 may be the better fit. Your giving up a little on a low end of the modulation rate so in lieu of using a low loss header you could do a small Caleffi 25 Gallon Thermocon buffer take to take its place.

As far as HX goes. Viessmann makes their own, its not a gionnoni. Has a limited lifetime warranty, constructed of 316 Ti Staniless and pretty much bullet proof. If your after a combi then look at the Vitodens 222-F. It will out perform that Triangle Excellence and the tank is also constructed of the same 316 Ti as the boiler heat exchanger.

I'm Confused

@ January 8, 2014 7:44 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

I can't tell from the pic what's from what, its so small.

Can you label those temp readings:

Boiler Supply
Boiler Return

System Supply
System Return

Those Temps

@ January 8, 2014 11:27 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

Are boiler supply and return - What about system side supply and return? At the same time.

Hey Bob

@ January 8, 2014 11:20 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

What disgust me about this entire ordeal. Nobody measured system side delta's at all. Everyone went right to the boiler. Dumb move if you ask me. Not too hard to figure out what your delivering out of the boiler and out of the system. The misconception that the boiler side is what your getting on the secondary side shows lack of hydronic understanding IMO.

At 1GPM

@ January 8, 2014 11:16 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

Flow rate with 180 degree water its 560 for SunTemp - Not sure what brand. Thanks for the math correction on the footage..

Capable Output

@ January 8, 2014 10:00 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

103 ft of board is 103x 560x = 57,680 btu/hr - Now break it up into the zones. I'm keep preaching it, need boiler supply, return temps and system supply, return temps.

Install The

@ January 8, 2014 8:05 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

Optional system side supply sensor offered for the Alpine. This way the boiler will reset off the system supply not the boiler supply temp.

You Do Realize

@ January 8, 2014 7:41 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

That just because the boiler may be making 180 degree water doesn't mean that its in high fire nor does it mean 180 degree water is going out to the system side. For the 100th time, your piped primary secondary.

There is no Way

@ January 7, 2014 9:49 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

There should be TWO SUPPLY AND RETURN TEMPS NOT ONE....The boiler is piped primary secondary, in essence two separate systems. The boiler or primary side delta-t is constantly changing, ie, modulation.. They system of primary side will have a different delta-t. It is 99.9% mathematically impossible for both sides to have the exact same supply and return water temp. Here is the reason why.

The boiler/primary side has a fixed speed pump that the boiler mfg sized to move a specific flow rate each and every time it fires, You cannot no matter how hard you try change that. In this case its moving 7.3gpm in an Alpine 80.

Your system/secondary has its own flow rate dependent on what zone or zones are calling and that is always changing. The other factor is the system side pump. It again is a fixed speed pump and is always going to operate on its operating curve. In a multiple zone system one, two or maybe all zones are going to be over pumped.

In order for you to have a 20 degree delta out of that Alpine you would have to to be in high fire constantly, move the entire 7.3gpm out of the primary/boiler side into the secondary side, the secondary side would only need exactly 7.3gpm at all times and you had perfect matching boiler and system delta-t's. The odds of all this happening in harmony at all times is scientifically and mathematically impossible.

The question is when all heating zones are open and calling. The system side supply and return temps should be taken at the system side of the supply and return closely spaced tee's

1. What is the boiler supply temp
2. What is the boiler return temp
3. What is the secondary/system supply temp
4. What is the secondary/system return temp

From the pics the indirect looks to be piped on the secondary side. You then shut off the heating zones, open the indirect zones and take another set of readings. I have to say that I'm surprised but again we are only hearing your side of the story.

So Nobody

@ January 7, 2014 9:47 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

Has done any system side supply/return water temp measurements at all? That would be ridiculous in my opinion if they haven't. Boiler is working, making energy, making hot water. So the issue has to be on the system side not the boiler side. Without these readings how would anyone know what's going on? They wouldn't. I'm very surprised nobody that has been to this job hasn't taken delta-t/temperature readings on the heating and DHW system side. Delta-t is the difference between the supply and return temps. Since your piped primary secondary, the boiler/primary side would have a different delta-t the the system/secondary side. How would anyone know what the btu/hr delivery is without these readings.

gpm = btu/hr / (delta-t x 500)

Through This Entire Ordeal

@ January 7, 2014 9:18 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

And I've read every post. Nobody has done a heat loss calculation, nobody has measured system supply temp while comparing the btu/hr ouput of the board and/or DHW at those temps. Everyone keeps going to the boiler control to read temp. Has anyone done any system side supply/return readings as well as DHW supply return readings. Are you over pumping? What are the delta-t's. Nobody has started with the basics, everyone keeps running to the boiler. What's the delta-t on the boiler/primary side? This sounds like a hydronic problem not a boiler problem..

Install

@ January 4, 2014 9:17 AM in Vitodens 100-W temp setting question

The outdoor sensor and set a curve.

No Sensor

@ January 4, 2014 7:46 AM in Vitodens 100-W temp setting question

Means no reset, means no turning down. Boiler is just riding the curve at that dial setting.

There's Much More

@ December 28, 2013 8:17 AM in Looking for resources

About high efficiency systems then the boiler, The Boiler is just a heating plant that makes energy. As others have said all that information is available on the boiler mfgs web site.

I'd say, that the design side is even more important then the plant itself but to be a good designer you need to understand hydronics. I'd suggest you start with these great tools from our friends at Caleffi. These great resources should be on every professionals bookshelf.

http://www.caleffi.us/caleffi/en_US/Site/Technical_library/Idraulica_magazine/index.sdo

Another suggestion is for you to join the Taco Flo Pro Team and John Barba's Neighborhood at www.taco-hvac.com
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