Joined on December 29, 2008
Last Post on December 9, 2013
@ August 12, 2013 4:47 PM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommendedI think the heat loss is needed and also measurement of the emitters. The Navien for example, has a max flow rate across the HX of 5gpm, If my heat loss is greater then 50,000 say 80,000 and running on the standard 20 delta-t on the system side, I will have a mix water temp on the system side when piped pri/sec or LLH. In this case if I need 180 degree supply my boiler would need to be making 192. Question is will 173 get me there.
(8-5) *160 + 5*192/8 = 180 Degree System Supply Temp
(8-5)*160 + 5*180/8 = 173 Degree System Supply Temp
I want to know what that mix temp is going to be so I can ascertain as to whether that mix water temp is going to get me where I need to be at or close to design temp. So a heat loss is important because without out it your rolling the dice.
@ August 10, 2013 3:08 PM in Viessmann questionhttp://www.viessmann.co.uk/en/communal_district_heating_networks/products/med/Vitocrossal_300_Typ_CM3.html
By the pic there is only a DHW call. No way to trace the problem from a pic. Could be a piping problem..That control also runs a variable speed system pump. Going to have to go through the coding and trace the problem. Could be that the control is not set to DHW Priority so no matter a domestic call of a heating call that heating pump is going to run 24/7 until you reach warm weather shut down. That boiler only has 115 degree water in it from the pic..
@ August 10, 2013 7:56 AM in ODR Starting TemperatureWWSD should always be the set point the homeowner sets his thermostats to. You want your curve to provided the water temp needed to satisfy the thermostat. If you start your heating curve lower then the thermostat set point you will struggle to reach it. May not be an issue in the swing months but Jan,Feb could cause an uncomfortable home. Gets worse if the homeowner sets back his therms at night..
@ August 10, 2013 6:58 AM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommendedModulating Condensing boiler on the market that I know of with a heat exchanger warranty where you want it is a Viessmann. Limited Lifetime. The warranty is just like a cast iron boiler 10 years full and then prorated out. Vitodens 100 might be a nice fit.
@ August 9, 2013 5:46 PM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommendedTrack Record and Reliability. Let's see, there are millions of condensing boilers sold across the world yearly. The entire US market accounts for about 300,000 boilers a year total in all make and kind. Viessmann as an example, produces 400,000 just in wall hung condensing boilers a year.
Don't know what is more reliable then a modulating condensing gas boiler with the same warranty as a cast iron boiler. Would love to know where your reading all this. Also remember this saying, "Its not the arrow it's the Indian."
Better off with an indirect. If you are going to cast iron I'd look at the Burnham Series 3 or ES2 and add the ODR card..Going to be pretty close to the condensing price point though.
@ August 9, 2013 5:17 PM in Giannoni HX?The boiler control should vari the speed of the pump based on the modulation rate. Boiler should also give you the ability to select the delta-t you want to run. Heck I'd go as far as the boiler needs an on board zone control where you program in each zones flow rate. My boiler would only allow you to zone with zone valves and run a vari speed circ pump and it be a delta-t pump. Might as well get the entire system in sync with each other..
@ August 9, 2013 5:11 PM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommendedThe maximum capable output it can produce. I would also use 560 or the 1gpm flow rate not the 4gpm flow rate of 590-600.. Not jumping, just sharing..
I'd be more concerned knowing that heat loss for my water temp and ODR calculation. ODR is an option with the Navien and the OP has never even mentioned that they offered it.
@ August 9, 2013 5:02 PM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommendedOn AFUE. It's a lie and only pertains to the boilers combustion efficiency. Has no bearing on system efficiency.
Here is why I would never, ever, ever choose either one of these guys. Because neither of them probably know that the max flow rate of the on board pump for the Navien will flow is 5gpm period! Without a heat loss and emitter calculation there just rolling the dice..
@ August 7, 2013 8:52 PM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommendedI'm sure he has an opinion...Waiting for it for my response..As Carl has said, beating a dead horse..
@ August 7, 2013 8:20 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersIn the past. I get plenty of call of adding one to steam boilers and get the same answer as I do with the subject at hand. This is an inspector issue going by the install manual on the subject burners and by the manuals they are correct. None of us can deny that.
Like you said before, where is the PHCC, GAMA and other trade organizations? There in the other pocket..:)
This is a great subject of debate in getting everyone's stance on conversion burners.
@ August 7, 2013 7:52 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersThat when installed, set up properly and maintained they work like champs. I will never say they won't operate great. Again, the 10 guys behind you that don't do what you and Steam do negate that. It's sad but true..
@ August 7, 2013 7:41 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersThey want to sell boilers not let Carlin and others sell burners...That's a business decision and a smart one if you ask me..Ok, let's say they test today's boilers that doesn't mean anything in service prior would be able to be converted..
This is where I don't understand a lot of guys that post here often. You preach install manual, install manual, install manual but when what you preach doesn't provide you the answer you want it's, that darn mfg..
It's been in the manuals for years and more then likely not enforced because oil prices were low and consumers weren't looking to convert..Welcome to 2013, it's an entire new world..
I can say one thing. Come to us and purchase a conversion burner. Your invoice will say.
It is the purchaser/installers responsibility to consult the installation and/or operating manual issued by the manufacturer of the furnace, boiler, water heater or any appliance/equipment being converted from oil to natural or lp gas for approval. XXXX assumes no liability nor is responsible for improper installation..
May just stop selling them period..
@ August 7, 2013 6:01 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersWith the owner of a rep agency that represents a well known
Boiler mfg. His opening statement, Funny you should ask
Chris, we are seeing the same thing in our market where
Inspectors are failing their boilers where someone
converted them from oil to gas. It's a serious issue that
needs to be addressed. Not only does it void our warranty but
may also open the homeowner up to loss of home insurance
coverage if the boiler was the cause of an issue. The contractor
would be liable.
Like I said early, is this the beginning of the end for
Gas conversion burners?
@ August 7, 2013 2:49 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersIs that you may, but most do not even make the homeowner aware that the mfg of the boiler doesn't allow it. Installers make the choice for them. In my book that's being dishonest for the buck. There is nothing wrong with making the consumer aware and letting them make the choice. I think I made it clear that they work and work well when installed and set up properly.
@ August 7, 2013 7:34 AM in Gas Conversion BurnersIn every aspect of your post except for the most important from a liability stand point. You own the boiler and owe it to the consumer to inform them that you just installed a burner on their boiler that the boiler mfg does not approve. Until the boiler mfg approves it that statement doesn't change no matter how many are installed, how they perform or if there the greatest product since sliced bread..
@ August 6, 2013 10:03 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersBut that would be dependent on what side deals they make with mfgs..Remember all these boiler were installed prior to any testing or data with conversion burners..
Steam, I don't feel its a bad inspector. He is actual doing his job. The boiler manuals in most if not all cases say you cannot convert to gas. Now that the gas companies are now providing service where every they can, I can see the potential for an issue as the number of consumers who want to convert existing boilers seek out the cheapest guy to do it.
My stance on this has always been to inform the consumer that the mfg says the boiler cannot be converted, it voids the warranty and the decision is up to them. I know they work and work well when installed and set up properly. But like I said to JStar there are 10 guys behind you that don't do the due diligence as you do.
@ August 6, 2013 9:06 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersSometime I wonder why mfg's dumb'd down the industry. I really believe that. Back in the day mfg's didn't care if it was installed wrong, they gave a contractor a block, control, pump or what ever and covered for them. In essence enablers for a dumb'd down industry all in the end for the almighty dollar. Then came the age of lawyers, lawsuits and accountability and there are a lot of installers that still want and need the cover. Now that cover comes from the wholesaler in some instances and when it doesn't they get mad and do biz elsewhere.
I am not saying all, but I feel that majority out weighs the minority of those in the trade that want and do the right thing.
@ August 6, 2013 8:09 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersInspector is right. Unless the boiler mfgs start to test and change the manuals could become the norm. I think because the influx of gas lines going in and consumers wanting to get off oil in droves, safety has to come first.
We preach heat loss, heat loss, heat loss and install manual, install manual, install manual so why is this any different?
This is a subject that needs to be addressed and conversed on. While you and others do your due diligence in the installation, you know as well as ,I there are 10 guys behind you that don't..
From a liability stance, the homeowner needs to be made aware that the mfg of the boiler they have installed in the basement doesn't approve the conversion. That's the right thing to do and part of our job.
@ August 6, 2013 7:21 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersOf the woods about 14 miles North of you. Doesn't matter what the burner company says, the boiler mfg manual rules. Just wondering if this is going to become a trend. Inspectors talk. I'm sure he just didn't pull his request out of the air.
@ August 6, 2013 7:09 PM in Gas Conversion BurnersCame across something for the first time today and wondering if this is going to be a trend with gas lines going in all over the place and consumers wanting to convert from oil to gas.
An inspector in NJ wanted a letter from the boiler mfg stating that the boiler could be converted from oil to gas. He didn't care what the conversion burner company said. Those of us that know what the boiler mfg installation manual says already know the answer from the boiler mfg, This also wasn't an old boiler.
In the end, boiler has to be ripped out and replaced with a gas boiler rated for the job, The point I'm making, guys in NJ may need to start doing their due diligence as this may be something you might see more of from inspectors.
This isn't about will the burner work, when set up and installed properly but rather god forbid something happens, guess who is liable?
@ August 6, 2013 12:03 PM in NAVIENImpossible when piped pri/sec or LLH when the system flow rate exceeds the boiler flow rate and in the case of the Navien that's 5gpm! Reason it's impossible is that the Navien does not utilize a downstream temp sensor and when the system flow rate exceeds the boiler flow rate your mixing in colder return water temp into the supply water temp.
(Sys Rtn Flow - Boiler Flow) * Sys Rtn Temp + (Boiler Flow)*Boiler Supply Temp/Sys Rtn Temp = System Supply Temp