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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 29, 2014

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@ April 29, 2011 7:23 AM in How Many Have Used

Good points. thanks

How Many Have Used

@ April 28, 2011 9:34 AM in How Many Have Used

This product. I attend at meeting last night and these product was demonstrated. Has anyone had any experience with it and does it work as advertised? Thanx..

I See Says The Blind Man

@ April 26, 2011 11:39 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Makes sense. It is a nice design. Wouldn't surprise me to soon see the US four jump on that wagon train.


@ April 26, 2011 11:08 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

For the input. I too feel that the Challenger has a very limited market application. I tend to think it's there avenue to apartment complexs, town houses and similar bath and a half applications. It looks more like a kick space heater on steriods in some aspects.
The HX and copper domestic coils don't sit well with me. The types of applications this unit targets generally sees the least service and that shouts potential problems in my eyes. Water quality in these parts is not the greatest. I also just found out that Triangle found a new vendor to make their HX's. My understanding is that the previous vendor was unable to make them a larger HX above 399 and they were finding more quality control issues with them as they increased demand on them. They are also making little changes such as going 439SS through the entire HX and beefing up the passgeways. It never sits well with me when I here changes in HX's but making something better is never a bad thing.

The reason I asked about the Challenger is I'm meeting with the local rep next week. They are dangling the Challenger as a not everyone is going to be able to get and we want you to have it. I've been in the Wholesale side for a long time and you know as well as I that that's like a politician promising the world until he's elected..

Yeah we are the typical Vegas Strip worker. Nortiz, Navien and a slew of mod/cons to include Triangle. We are the only guys on the block though that actually stock and highlight Viessmann. I started selling it back in the early early 90's when I worked in New England. Grew up in the early days of Stadler (my first radiant line), Viessmann under the Joe Freidrich atmosphere. Constant circulation and NR-32's baby. I actually have the privilage to have all his articles in chronological order that he wrote during his days with Contractor Mag. I have to thank Mr Ross for those as he and Joe are still close. Its amazing at times to read his thoughts then and see it in what we are doing now.. .

You mean the up and coming top mfg dog on the planet. Doesn't surprise me.


@ April 26, 2011 4:14 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Being that you are well versed in the combi field what are your impressions and take on this product?

I was told that this isn't being made by the parent company ACV. Its a another mfg across the pond that has had success with it. Do you know who the parent company is and are you aware of any past or current issues with it?

I'm trying to educate myself on this unit before making a decision on whether we should stock it. We also sell Navien by the way.. Thanks

We Shall

@ April 25, 2011 9:15 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

I have to agree I did learn something from him. The tone that he set brought out the Jar Head in me and if I offended I apologize. With that said, I wouldn't expect someone within the mfg side of the industry and obvisouly well educated on the subject to get off on inciting others through sarcasim. But that is my fault for letting it get to me. I would though, expect them to inform and educate as he did in his further post on the heating btu's of the Navien. That was a well explained and informative post.

From his little bio he started in the industry just a few years earlier then I. While I am originally from New England I've probably crossed his path a time or two. He would have grown up in the early Viessmann, Stadler days as I did.

Mark, I don't hide my name...Its at the bottom of every post :)

Boiler Industry

@ April 24, 2011 4:10 PM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Are the powers to be, ECR, Burnham, Weil, Peerless? What we could call     "The Big 3" amercian companies. May the problem be that they cannot continually afford to compete with the Europeans due to the mirco dot market share they have when looking at it as global competition?

Is the regulation held back to allow them to compete in the marketplace? Wouldn't be the first time we put jobs in front of better products. The automotive industry learned that the hard way.

Cowards Hide

@ April 24, 2011 3:55 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Thanks for the heads up ME. You can't have a conversation with a coward. They hide in the dark giving them no credibility in my book.

Pick the Poision

@ April 24, 2011 7:56 AM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Lets face it. At some point all boilers are over sized and short cycle. You just have to find the less intrusive poison to limit it as much as possible.

We also have limited product from our European friends. Here is the product avail from ACV who in our world is Triangle

Could you cut down on short cycle with one of these...JB's heat loss would dictate the little 2.2kw - 18kw.. That low end is 7,500 btu's..

Another example is Viessmann. This is the list of the mod/cons available across the pond. The boilers we have here low end start at 9KW not the 3 and 4kw's shown here.

Is seems the US gets the leftovers when these companies develop new product for the European market. What we get and consider "new" is truly "old"....

I'll Concede

@ April 24, 2011 7:29 AM in Navien Combi Boilers

That the CH-240-ASME is a boiler. The other CH models are not. I am not ignorant as to combi units. I was selling Vitodens combi's long before the isles at HD had tankless units...


@ April 21, 2011 10:34 PM in short cycling in shoulder season, fact/fiction/improper design ?

I would say anytime a heating appliance does not make "steady state" it is in short cycle..That's how a piece of equipment gets their AFUE. Now define steady state in a modulating piece of equipment running at different rates of modulation and water temp... 

This in itself brings to that fact how a mod/con achieves the ratings of over 90%. THE TESTING IS DONE 140 SUPPLY 120 RETURN! The boiler is condensing and NOT AT ITS FULL LOAD. Last I knew they don't set a heating curve and hook up an outdoor sensor in a cooler and force the boiler into full load with 180 degree water. If they did the boiler would only be rated at 87% AFUE. 

Orange Box Employee

@ April 21, 2011 8:04 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Please tell us where in this installation manual that it states this is a boiler?

Please show us where it states here other then the file name..

Wouldn't Buy It

@ April 21, 2011 7:57 PM in Bad Radiant w Pex Bubbles

With a pole as long as those loop lengths...Next house please..Looks like Wirsbo tubing. Cut the area out and expand it. Doesn't come back then possibly but highly unlikely... 

Trick Question

@ April 21, 2011 7:43 PM in short cycling in shoulder season, fact/fiction/improper design ?

This is a trick question. There are too many causes to apply it to one. Let's not forget maybe one of the main causes. The dollar bill. "You pay for the Indian who fires the straight arrow, You get by with the arrow that grazes."

NH, Not Necessarily True

@ April 21, 2011 12:01 PM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Could design using a 30 degree delta-t. In the case of Vitodens does water temp matter if the limitation of the rate of modulation gets us into 90%? We can limit a heating circuit rate separate from another circuit or domestic.  Even using 160 at full load could still condense 90% of the heating season. Only need the 160 on design day...
Have to step back and look at the total system design.

Modulation Limitation

@ April 21, 2011 11:15 AM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

 It's use is to be able to limit the heating circuit rate of modulation separate from the domestic load in VItodens. Low heat loss but need to supply domestic demand on a single boiler system.

Opinions Welcome

@ April 20, 2011 10:53 PM in question about zoning hot water system

That's what the site is all about. We all share our experiences to help another.

Sometimes its hard to apply theory to the unknown heat loss,  zone layout and emitter capability. While a thermostat will act as a high limit I might utilize one that provides indoor temp feedback back to the boiler allowing the boiler to adjust its water temp to not only the outdoor temp but indoor temp.

Alot of variables to applying theory to a home not seen with no customer feedback as to comfort level, living style etc.

Thermostatic Valves

@ April 20, 2011 9:05 PM in question about zoning hot water system

Thermostats won't stop the uneven heating. They will just shut off the zone. The thermostatics will allow you to dial in the individual rads. Your best bet for now is to have a room by room heat loss done. Then capable output of the rads compared to the loss at different water temps. You can then take it to the next level...


@ April 20, 2011 7:23 PM in question about zoning hot water system


Mark is referring to cascading condensing boilers. I not a Lochinvar guy and Mark can better explain that product. I'm a Viessmann guy and we can do the same. WIth these types of boilers we can limit modulation, water temp mins and max's and have other control side tweaks that others don't have inside their product.  Not every system is the same and there is no "fit all" solution. Mark is correct in his comments.  He is looking at it from a total system design standpoint which is a valid option. The real question is does the original poster have a Mark in his market to look at the job, give him viable options and then implement them. 

Don't discredit his offer of an option to look at. None of us know if that option or another fits this persons application unless he wants to pay air fare and a hotel room.


@ April 20, 2011 7:03 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Will not qualify for 90% or 96% heating rebate. It is not a boiler, not rated as a boiler nor has the ratings for a boiler period!!!!!! Has no AHRI number. IT IS A TANKLESS WATER HEATER THAT IS PROMOTED AS A HEAT SOURCE!


@ April 20, 2011 7:00 PM in Pumping Away with the Prestige Solo 110

Exp tank and feed would go on the return. You need to calculate the required system head and included the boiler head to make sure the 15-58 can do the job. Was just on a job today where boiler kept going off on intermintent lockouts due to high limit just for this reason. While the manual shows a diagram it also states all over the place that pri/sec is recommended...Personally would use a low loss header rather then pri/sec.

Heat Loss

@ April 19, 2011 10:40 PM in question about zoning hot water system

Some of your questions while good cannot be anwsered in full without knowing the complete heat loss. Would also need to measure the radiators for comparison of the heat loss to their capable output based on a water temp.

Would have to break that loss into zones to have an idea of zones flow rate. Would have to see existing piping to see if I even want a zone strategy. With rads and a condensing boiler I may want thermostatic valves on them. There is no flat "How a system works." It depends on what type of system approach one is taking. Could do the above and run smart pumps that can regulate flow rate or delta-t. Might add a buffer tank if micro (small) zones. Maybe just the use of a hydro separator would be fine.  You need to finds some pros for a site visit that would allow estimates on different options.

A condensing boiler doesn't care how low the water temp is. A tankless water heater is not a boiler if that is what you are referring to. I don't predicate its use in an application it is not rated for.

Here is a link for info on zoning. Happy reading...
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