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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on August 20, 2014

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Direct Piping

@ May 3, 2011 11:19 AM in Radiant Floor Heating System 404x40 shop

I wouldn't direct pipe on this unit. You must maintain a minimum of 2gpm thru the unit. I would utilize a low loss header although you could primary/secondary if you wished. Your warranty just went to 1yr on the unit and I feel the LLH would be a better fit for a novice to maintain min flow rates. Size your unit pump based on the head loss in the unit. For my system pump I would use a Grundfoss Alpha or similar pump. 

Not Yet

@ April 30, 2011 9:01 AM in Help!

Trying to get them to do the right thing. Contract out having the existing vent system removed. Install a couple of 120 gal electrics for temp dhw. The demand is not large in the sense of multiple fixtures at the same time. It may not give them exactlt what they need but would get them buy for a week. I also asked them to provide the heat loss in the spec versus just the exisiting btu loads off the boiler tags. Same for domestic. Want the demand/load. There are 6 boilers there and based on the building running without any problems on 1 down heating boiler and 1 down DHW boiler we could combined dhw and heating into one bank of condensing boilers. Would make the footprint smaller and provide them the best bang for the buck. I think the bldg owner sees that is the best way to go. Will find out Monday am..


@ April 30, 2011 8:36 AM in Help!

Tried that. They are not 96% AFUE. Don't meet the spec. One of the other issues I have. We are limited on boiler choice because of the 96%. I did propose that they give that a second look and bring it down to 95%...


@ April 30, 2011 8:32 AM in Help!

It would be worth the look to see what these boilers are actually delivering. They do have 4" vents coming off the boilers but were reduced to 3" after 24" or so. Plus one of them wasn't even working this past heating season and the building heated fine. Boiler room space is an issue to use smaller boilers unless we can get the load down to boilers that vent 3". The link is the building. Flue would be down on the right hand side of the bldg out the roof just at the 3rd car in.

There are no engineers to speak with. Project is being run by a Affordable Housing Conservency that provides monies to convert to high efficiency.

Thanks Mark

@ April 29, 2011 10:09 PM in Help!

I might just send them the venting and try that. Boilers shoot about 15' straight to a corner and then b-line straight up five stories.  

I Tend To Disagree

@ April 29, 2011 8:23 PM in Radiant Floor Heating System 404x40 shop

I would rather see you pipe pri/sec or utilize a low loss header. Then the 007 could be used as a system pump for the radiant. I would also use the mix valve as a means of protection. You would need a properly sized circulator for the head of the tankless. The low loss header would be better piping option in my opinion. You can then have control of the flow rates on the radiant without having to worry about trying to maintain the min of 2gpm and max of 4gpm through the tankless. Personally I wouldn't use the 007 I'd use a Grundfoss Alpha or similar pump.

You may want to consider finding another heat source..Hx only has a 1yr warranty.

Have a Week

@ April 29, 2011 7:56 PM in Help!


I got the bid that was due on the 4th extended one week. These guys have no clue. I went there with one of my contractors as a favor. If I didn't open my mouth and press the issues this job was headed for trouble. This job is funded with state dollars and to pull information out of them is like pulling teeth. While driving to the job and reading the scope of the bid I already had many concerns.

It gets even better. Existing are 4 300,000 boilers thus the 1.2 in the spec.Walk in the boiler room, look at the piping and one can see they don't need it. The funds for this come from an Energy Efficiency program thus why they want 96%. I could care less about what's there and want to know if anyone did a heat loss of the building and have existing lengths, dimensions and types of emitters. Find out yup someone did but it wasn't divulged in the spec. Talking to the building management I find out they have been running on 3 of the boilers all heating season (1 is done) with no problems.

I then ask if anyone has gas bills over the past 2 years and low and behold yup. They have therms used for the past 2 years. They also have another two fo the same boilers doing domestic and want them replaced. Again find out been running on 1 with no problems. So I asked has anyone calculate the actual domestic demand on the bldg. Yup....

The point here is that they did the leg work but still just put it out to replace exactly the btu amount that is sitting in the basement. Building owner showed up well into the conversation and by the time I was finished he wasn't looking very happy. I am suppose to recevied on Monday, the actual heat loss that was done, the therms used in the last two years as well as the actuall domestic demand

My concern about types of boilers that are avail based on my original post was I don't think there are any and stated that there is no boiler that will meet the spec. If you look at the spec they are telling you Lochinvar Knight without specifically stating the actual boiler. By law they cannot spec a specific product mfg and you have to be good enough to figure it out. Which I of course I did because thats exactly what they wanted. Too bad it vents 4"  nice application for it.

Did I say the boiler room is real small which is also an issue.

The Contractor

@ April 29, 2011 4:37 PM in NG conversion - diameter of old raditor pipes

If a heat loss was not done by either contractor then throw both those quotes along with their thoughts into the garbage can. 2,700 sqft house using 75btu's a sqft.. Don't think so unless you keep the windows open for the smell of nice salt air...But bigger is better right? :)


@ April 29, 2011 4:27 PM in Help!

Is anyone aware of a nat gas condensing boiler  285K input that can vent 3" CPVC , 110' combined length, is 96% AFUE and has a 5 to1 turndown ratio?

Went on a job site visit today for a bid that is due. Those are the specs in the bid and they do not want the flue's touched. Flues were originally put together on the sidewalk, craned and dropped down the chimmney then cemented in..There are SIX of them. Job has old HydroTherm Multipulse boilers. At first was thinking Knights but that isn't happening with the vent issues..


@ April 29, 2011 7:23 AM in How Many Have Used

Good points. thanks

How Many Have Used

@ April 28, 2011 9:34 AM in How Many Have Used

This product. I attend at meeting last night and these product was demonstrated. Has anyone had any experience with it and does it work as advertised? Thanx..

I See Says The Blind Man

@ April 26, 2011 11:39 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Makes sense. It is a nice design. Wouldn't surprise me to soon see the US four jump on that wagon train.


@ April 26, 2011 11:08 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

For the input. I too feel that the Challenger has a very limited market application. I tend to think it's there avenue to apartment complexs, town houses and similar bath and a half applications. It looks more like a kick space heater on steriods in some aspects.
The HX and copper domestic coils don't sit well with me. The types of applications this unit targets generally sees the least service and that shouts potential problems in my eyes. Water quality in these parts is not the greatest. I also just found out that Triangle found a new vendor to make their HX's. My understanding is that the previous vendor was unable to make them a larger HX above 399 and they were finding more quality control issues with them as they increased demand on them. They are also making little changes such as going 439SS through the entire HX and beefing up the passgeways. It never sits well with me when I here changes in HX's but making something better is never a bad thing.

The reason I asked about the Challenger is I'm meeting with the local rep next week. They are dangling the Challenger as a not everyone is going to be able to get and we want you to have it. I've been in the Wholesale side for a long time and you know as well as I that that's like a politician promising the world until he's elected..

Yeah we are the typical Vegas Strip worker. Nortiz, Navien and a slew of mod/cons to include Triangle. We are the only guys on the block though that actually stock and highlight Viessmann. I started selling it back in the early early 90's when I worked in New England. Grew up in the early days of Stadler (my first radiant line), Viessmann under the Joe Freidrich atmosphere. Constant circulation and NR-32's baby. I actually have the privilage to have all his articles in chronological order that he wrote during his days with Contractor Mag. I have to thank Mr Ross for those as he and Joe are still close. Its amazing at times to read his thoughts then and see it in what we are doing now.. .

You mean the up and coming top mfg dog on the planet. Doesn't surprise me.


@ April 26, 2011 4:14 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Being that you are well versed in the combi field what are your impressions and take on this product?

I was told that this isn't being made by the parent company ACV. Its a another mfg across the pond that has had success with it. Do you know who the parent company is and are you aware of any past or current issues with it?

I'm trying to educate myself on this unit before making a decision on whether we should stock it. We also sell Navien by the way.. Thanks

We Shall

@ April 25, 2011 9:15 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

I have to agree I did learn something from him. The tone that he set brought out the Jar Head in me and if I offended I apologize. With that said, I wouldn't expect someone within the mfg side of the industry and obvisouly well educated on the subject to get off on inciting others through sarcasim. But that is my fault for letting it get to me. I would though, expect them to inform and educate as he did in his further post on the heating btu's of the Navien. That was a well explained and informative post.

From his little bio he started in the industry just a few years earlier then I. While I am originally from New England I've probably crossed his path a time or two. He would have grown up in the early Viessmann, Stadler days as I did.

Mark, I don't hide my name...Its at the bottom of every post :)

Boiler Industry

@ April 24, 2011 4:10 PM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Are the powers to be, ECR, Burnham, Weil, Peerless? What we could call     "The Big 3" amercian companies. May the problem be that they cannot continually afford to compete with the Europeans due to the mirco dot market share they have when looking at it as global competition?

Is the regulation held back to allow them to compete in the marketplace? Wouldn't be the first time we put jobs in front of better products. The automotive industry learned that the hard way.

Cowards Hide

@ April 24, 2011 3:55 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Thanks for the heads up ME. You can't have a conversation with a coward. They hide in the dark giving them no credibility in my book.

Pick the Poision

@ April 24, 2011 7:56 AM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Lets face it. At some point all boilers are over sized and short cycle. You just have to find the less intrusive poison to limit it as much as possible.

We also have limited product from our European friends. Here is the product avail from ACV who in our world is Triangle

Could you cut down on short cycle with one of these...JB's heat loss would dictate the little 2.2kw - 18kw.. That low end is 7,500 btu's..

Another example is Viessmann. This is the list of the mod/cons available across the pond. The boilers we have here low end start at 9KW not the 3 and 4kw's shown here.

Is seems the US gets the leftovers when these companies develop new product for the European market. What we get and consider "new" is truly "old"....

I'll Concede

@ April 24, 2011 7:29 AM in Navien Combi Boilers

That the CH-240-ASME is a boiler. The other CH models are not. I am not ignorant as to combi units. I was selling Vitodens combi's long before the isles at HD had tankless units...


@ April 21, 2011 10:34 PM in short cycling in shoulder season, fact/fiction/improper design ?

I would say anytime a heating appliance does not make "steady state" it is in short cycle..That's how a piece of equipment gets their AFUE. Now define steady state in a modulating piece of equipment running at different rates of modulation and water temp... 

This in itself brings to that fact how a mod/con achieves the ratings of over 90%. THE TESTING IS DONE 140 SUPPLY 120 RETURN! The boiler is condensing and NOT AT ITS FULL LOAD. Last I knew they don't set a heating curve and hook up an outdoor sensor in a cooler and force the boiler into full load with 180 degree water. If they did the boiler would only be rated at 87% AFUE. 

Orange Box Employee

@ April 21, 2011 8:04 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Please tell us where in this installation manual that it states this is a boiler?

Please show us where it states here other then the file name..

Wouldn't Buy It

@ April 21, 2011 7:57 PM in Bad Radiant w Pex Bubbles

With a pole as long as those loop lengths...Next house please..Looks like Wirsbo tubing. Cut the area out and expand it. Doesn't come back then possibly but highly unlikely... 
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