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Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on July 8, 2014

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Boiler Industry

@ April 24, 2011 4:10 PM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Are the powers to be, ECR, Burnham, Weil, Peerless? What we could call     "The Big 3" amercian companies. May the problem be that they cannot continually afford to compete with the Europeans due to the mirco dot market share they have when looking at it as global competition?

Is the regulation held back to allow them to compete in the marketplace? Wouldn't be the first time we put jobs in front of better products. The automotive industry learned that the hard way.

Cowards Hide

@ April 24, 2011 3:55 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Thanks for the heads up ME. You can't have a conversation with a coward. They hide in the dark giving them no credibility in my book.

Pick the Poision

@ April 24, 2011 7:56 AM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Lets face it. At some point all boilers are over sized and short cycle. You just have to find the less intrusive poison to limit it as much as possible.

We also have limited product from our European friends. Here is the product avail from ACV who in our world is Triangle

Could you cut down on short cycle with one of these...JB's heat loss would dictate the little 2.2kw - 18kw.. That low end is 7,500 btu's..

Another example is Viessmann. This is the list of the mod/cons available across the pond. The boilers we have here low end start at 9KW not the 3 and 4kw's shown here.

Is seems the US gets the leftovers when these companies develop new product for the European market. What we get and consider "new" is truly "old"....

I'll Concede

@ April 24, 2011 7:29 AM in Navien Combi Boilers

That the CH-240-ASME is a boiler. The other CH models are not. I am not ignorant as to combi units. I was selling Vitodens combi's long before the isles at HD had tankless units...


@ April 21, 2011 10:34 PM in short cycling in shoulder season, fact/fiction/improper design ?

I would say anytime a heating appliance does not make "steady state" it is in short cycle..That's how a piece of equipment gets their AFUE. Now define steady state in a modulating piece of equipment running at different rates of modulation and water temp... 

This in itself brings to that fact how a mod/con achieves the ratings of over 90%. THE TESTING IS DONE 140 SUPPLY 120 RETURN! The boiler is condensing and NOT AT ITS FULL LOAD. Last I knew they don't set a heating curve and hook up an outdoor sensor in a cooler and force the boiler into full load with 180 degree water. If they did the boiler would only be rated at 87% AFUE. 

Orange Box Employee

@ April 21, 2011 8:04 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Please tell us where in this installation manual that it states this is a boiler?

Please show us where it states here other then the file name..

Wouldn't Buy It

@ April 21, 2011 7:57 PM in Bad Radiant w Pex Bubbles

With a pole as long as those loop lengths...Next house please..Looks like Wirsbo tubing. Cut the area out and expand it. Doesn't come back then possibly but highly unlikely... 

Trick Question

@ April 21, 2011 7:43 PM in short cycling in shoulder season, fact/fiction/improper design ?

This is a trick question. There are too many causes to apply it to one. Let's not forget maybe one of the main causes. The dollar bill. "You pay for the Indian who fires the straight arrow, You get by with the arrow that grazes."

NH, Not Necessarily True

@ April 21, 2011 12:01 PM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

Could design using a 30 degree delta-t. In the case of Vitodens does water temp matter if the limitation of the rate of modulation gets us into 90%? We can limit a heating circuit rate separate from another circuit or domestic.  Even using 160 at full load could still condense 90% of the heating season. Only need the 160 on design day...
Have to step back and look at the total system design.

Modulation Limitation

@ April 21, 2011 11:15 AM in oversizing mod/cons YES!!!!

 It's use is to be able to limit the heating circuit rate of modulation separate from the domestic load in VItodens. Low heat loss but need to supply domestic demand on a single boiler system.

Opinions Welcome

@ April 20, 2011 10:53 PM in question about zoning hot water system

That's what the site is all about. We all share our experiences to help another.

Sometimes its hard to apply theory to the unknown heat loss,  zone layout and emitter capability. While a thermostat will act as a high limit I might utilize one that provides indoor temp feedback back to the boiler allowing the boiler to adjust its water temp to not only the outdoor temp but indoor temp.

Alot of variables to applying theory to a home not seen with no customer feedback as to comfort level, living style etc.

Thermostatic Valves

@ April 20, 2011 9:05 PM in question about zoning hot water system

Thermostats won't stop the uneven heating. They will just shut off the zone. The thermostatics will allow you to dial in the individual rads. Your best bet for now is to have a room by room heat loss done. Then capable output of the rads compared to the loss at different water temps. You can then take it to the next level...


@ April 20, 2011 7:23 PM in question about zoning hot water system


Mark is referring to cascading condensing boilers. I not a Lochinvar guy and Mark can better explain that product. I'm a Viessmann guy and we can do the same. WIth these types of boilers we can limit modulation, water temp mins and max's and have other control side tweaks that others don't have inside their product.  Not every system is the same and there is no "fit all" solution. Mark is correct in his comments.  He is looking at it from a total system design standpoint which is a valid option. The real question is does the original poster have a Mark in his market to look at the job, give him viable options and then implement them. 

Don't discredit his offer of an option to look at. None of us know if that option or another fits this persons application unless he wants to pay air fare and a hotel room.


@ April 20, 2011 7:03 PM in Navien Combi Boilers

Will not qualify for 90% or 96% heating rebate. It is not a boiler, not rated as a boiler nor has the ratings for a boiler period!!!!!! Has no AHRI number. IT IS A TANKLESS WATER HEATER THAT IS PROMOTED AS A HEAT SOURCE!


@ April 20, 2011 7:00 PM in Pumping Away with the Prestige Solo 110

Exp tank and feed would go on the return. You need to calculate the required system head and included the boiler head to make sure the 15-58 can do the job. Was just on a job today where boiler kept going off on intermintent lockouts due to high limit just for this reason. While the manual shows a diagram it also states all over the place that pri/sec is recommended...Personally would use a low loss header rather then pri/sec.

Heat Loss

@ April 19, 2011 10:40 PM in question about zoning hot water system

Some of your questions while good cannot be anwsered in full without knowing the complete heat loss. Would also need to measure the radiators for comparison of the heat loss to their capable output based on a water temp.

Would have to break that loss into zones to have an idea of zones flow rate. Would have to see existing piping to see if I even want a zone strategy. With rads and a condensing boiler I may want thermostatic valves on them. There is no flat "How a system works." It depends on what type of system approach one is taking. Could do the above and run smart pumps that can regulate flow rate or delta-t. Might add a buffer tank if micro (small) zones. Maybe just the use of a hydro separator would be fine.  You need to finds some pros for a site visit that would allow estimates on different options.

A condensing boiler doesn't care how low the water temp is. A tankless water heater is not a boiler if that is what you are referring to. I don't predicate its use in an application it is not rated for.

Here is a link for info on zoning. Happy reading...

Low Loss Header

@ April 19, 2011 9:09 PM in GPM flow rate thrugh cast iron radiators

Using a low loss header/hydro separator would be the best approach. No worries. The HX would be protected. Attached is some reading..

New Vendor

@ April 19, 2011 7:46 PM in Triangle Tube heat exchanger

They found a new vendor to make the HX. The now not current vendor had some issues with being able to provide them with what they wanted as well as some quality control concerns. Design is staying the same except for using all 439 stainless and beefier.

How to install a gas boiler

@ April 17, 2011 3:49 PM in How to Install a Condensing Combi Boiler

This one is even better... "How you hook the boiler up to the gas will depend on what kind of gas you have in your home. Propane and natural gas are the two main types, and they have different methods that it's a good idea to research before you begin."

Read more: Gas Boiler Installation |

And we wonder why consumers question pricing...

How to Install a Condensing Combi Boiler

@ April 17, 2011 10:55 AM in How to Install a Condensing Combi Boiler

It's as simple as this according this writer..Difficulty: Moderate

I believe

@ April 17, 2011 8:41 AM in Vitola Vitoflame 200 with Vitoronic 300 problems

Factory setting is 9" to the gas valve and 3.3" on the manifold. Mixer head should be set to 12.5. Make sure the turbulator gas outlets are clean.. What's your ionization current? Are you getting any fault readings on the primary at all?

Head Loss

@ April 17, 2011 8:17 AM in circulator pump question for Vitodens 200

It's a state secret. No more then 7'..
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