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Chris

Chris

Joined on December 29, 2008

Last Post on April 20, 2014

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My Honest Opinion

@ March 25, 2011 4:14 PM in Boiler sizing on a gas conversion

Get a new heat loss done of zone 2...I don't know what climate you are in but from that loss I would say the north pole.  That's 50 Btu's a sqft.

The boiler is oversized.

Nice To Hear

@ March 25, 2011 12:17 PM in Some good training here!

Gerry is a top notch trainer. If anyone has the pleasure to attend won't be disappointed. Wish you nothing but the best Gerry.

The Bigger Equation

@ March 24, 2011 9:38 PM in savings from geothermal

You left out electricity...Is that not part of the equation? The question of payback also has to figure in on the installation of the system as a whole as well. Your peer or mine may not have the same skill set or work ethic. In the real world it's not always just about the arrow it's more about the indian. Any system is only as efficienct as the indian that installed it no matter what it's given efficiency is.

Delta-T

@ March 24, 2011 8:27 PM in Grundfos Alpha

What's the delta-t across supply and return? There have been many past posts up here trying to figure out the "state secret."  Hopefully the attached can help you out in understanding it better.

I Ponder This Question

@ March 24, 2011 8:12 PM in savings from geothermal

I've  often pondered the subject question. I'm located in the Northeast so my feelings are based on my climate.

I firmly believe you would never see the added investment payback when compared to a well designed and installed radiant and panel rad system using a condensing boiler tagged with a properly sized and insulated a/c system over the expected lifetime of each system. 

Well Said Tim

@ March 24, 2011 12:07 PM in Looking for input

Tim,
If I could give one piece of advise to any that use the WB2 it would be. Apply the application to the boiler keeping it as simple as possible. Really do some homework. What I think gets lost is, most contractors are accustomed to boiler manufactures they use as just that, a boiler mfg. With Viessmann we like to take a complete system approach and fit the boiler and it's available accessories into the complete system while keeping it simple as possible.

The boiler, within the control can do what you want. You just have to identify the needs first. I see guys choosing this boiler and mis-applying it all the time. They are so accustomed to using Tekmar and other controls that they never look at how simple a system they can design by letting the boiler do the job.

I would like to see Viessmann come out with a residential/light commerical applications manual showing and explaining how the boiler can be adapted to complete jobs using single and multiple water temps to include the use of both the Vitotrol 200 and 300 as well as the cascade control. It would make it much easier for the contractor needing to select a "system" that they need. That would be a good manual Tim and willing to bet you'd sell a bunch of them.

External Demand

@ March 24, 2011 8:10 AM in Looking for input

The biggest problem I run into with contractors is them grasping the concept that there is no "TT" on the boiler. Nine out of ten contractors on their first install take their end switchs to external demand thinking it's "TT".  The installation and operating manuals do not explain External Demand very well. You need to read both manuals to grasp the whole concept. Fully explaining it in one topic would be a nice feature.

To me it is critical to use a low loss header and sensor. By not, you actually take away system supply side temp feedback to the boiler control. The boiler wants to make the water temp that is needed to satisfy the system. In a sense it could care less what water temp it is making at the temp sensor in the boiler.

Attached is a quick start guide for the boiler control. It gives a basic setup and allows the contractor to get the boiler up and running for those that may not have it.

Lastly Tim I would have a chapter on the Lamda Pro Combustion pointing out what it is and its benefits.


.

Nice Boiler

@ March 23, 2011 4:14 PM in Triangle Tube boilers

It's made by ACV in Belgium as Rob pointed out. It's my second choice.  The Viessmann Vitodens 100 is a very simple condensing boiler without a fancy control that needs programing.  Its great for the 110,000 btu and under one temp replacement jobs. Better warranty on the HX, better flexibility on venting and better priced too.

I would like to see Triangle start to bring over some of the newer versions that they have across the pond. Look at that little boiler.

http://www.acv.com/int-en/03_03/17/app.rvb

Hydro Separator

@ March 23, 2011 7:54 AM in Mod con troubles

You may also want to get rid of the pri/sec and install a low loss header. Will give you added protection for the boiler. Plus you can blow it down.

Thermometer?

@ March 22, 2011 7:16 PM in DHW tank temp 140* but delivery temp low

Vitodens 200 uses a DHW sensor. Have you ohm'd it out to make sure it's reading properly. Once that tank comes up to temp it holds it for a long long time and that is a very large coil. Tank should draw 90% before recovery so the hot water is there provided it's made.  Make sure the sensor is all the way up in the well. The well is rather long. Is this something that has always been a problem or something that just started? Is the indirect piped on the boiler side of the LLH? What size Vitodens 200? Is the Vitotronic control on the boiler controlling the re-circ pump? What size pump are you using for the tank?

Can you post a pic of diagram of the install?

100 Percent Water?

@ March 22, 2011 12:40 PM in Mod con troubles

Any glycol in this system? If so what percentage of mix? What's the pressure gauge say when this happens?  Boilers high limit is 250 degrees. I'd also be worried about any glue joints in the vent close to the boiler.

Boiler Size

@ March 22, 2011 8:59 AM in heating set up questions

Boiler modulates 50-175,000. Might be able to use this if they were single pipe steam and being converted to hot water.
http://www.hydronicalternatives.com/Steam-to-hot-water-conversion-valve.pdf

Piping would be similar to this. Notice I said similar.

http://www.hydronicalternatives.com/RadiatorPipingDiagram.pdf

Why?

@ March 21, 2011 8:21 PM in heating set up questions

Why did you choose a boiler that is 175,000 for a 100,000 btu heat loss? Did you add the domestic to the load? You have a very oversized boiler...

Boiler will make the water temp that is needed to overcome the heat loss at design. That water temp is going to be dictated by your heat loss and capable emitter output based on conversion from sqft of EDR to btu's.

Are those radiators 4 Tube or 6 Tube. As an example..These come from slenderized rads currently sold. If you have old column radiators they would not have the same numbers. You would have to calculate their EDR.
4 Tube 25 High 10 Section Sqft EDR is 20
6 Tube 25 High 10 Section Sqft EDR is 30

Big difference in btu output. If the room heat loss is 3000 btu's.
4 Tube with 180 degree water would put out 3400
6 Tube with 150 degree water would put out 3300

Cast iron rads and condensing boilers are perfect partners. I also wouldn't be zoning with all circs.  If I'm paying the fuel dollars each apartment would be on a manifold, pex to rads, thermostatic valves and a Grundfoss Alpha or similar ecm pump and let if fly on the boilers outdoor reset curve. Keep in mind you are also paying for the electricity and they Alpha will pay for itself.

Lastly, please get rid of the baseboard. It will hurt you in the design and they don't play well together with cast iron rads.

Page 5

@ March 21, 2011 7:44 PM in L7224U1002 Digital aquastat

Page 5 of the pdf...

http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/69-0000s/69-1720EFS.pdf

Sorry Not Correct

@ March 20, 2011 3:24 PM in Do I use a control here?

Supply is on the left, return is on the right on the boiler. Install manual attached. Exp Tank, Feed and pump are clearly on the return. Page 29 and 30. If your flow rates are more then 1.7gpm or and less than 6.2gpm then the pump would be on the supply as you wouldn't be pri/sec or using a LLH. If you installed a presuree by-pass then the pump would have to be moved to the return. The pump would be then pumping away from the point of no pressure change and through the boiler. I attached the current install manual and the previous version. Same thing..

Something Maybe Better

@ March 20, 2011 1:21 PM in proliphix internet based thermostats help

Take a look at this http://www.ecobee.com/ it even has an i-phone i-pad app.

Vitodens Circ Placement

@ March 20, 2011 8:21 AM in Do I use a control here?

Ice,
You will also see in the Viessmann piping diagram that the exp tank and feed are  below it. We are still pumping away from the point of no pressure change. Circulators were put on the returns because it was easier for boiler mfg to crate them and they could also get more on a truck is they packaged them that way. If you look at the diagram in the Series 2 installation manual it state the the pump on the supply is the preferred spot.

Bonding

@ March 20, 2011 8:10 AM in Trac Pipe

Page 57 describes how they want it bonded. Follow the installation manual that few even open. Whether you agree or disagree with the product we all should still promote that if used, it is done in accordance with the mfg installation manual.

Circulator Placement

@ March 19, 2011 8:09 PM in Do I use a control here?

Circ needs to be on the supply after the exp tank for starters. Please post some pics.

From What

@ March 19, 2011 4:07 PM in Do I use a control here?

You have a one zone conversion from what? If a by-pass was used how was it piped and what regulates the flow out to the system and through the bypass? Can you post a pic or at a min a diagram of how the boiler is piped?

I'll Try

@ March 19, 2011 3:31 PM in Oil or LPG

I'll try to make it easier for you to understand. Let's start with, House is what it is?

We need to define what the house needs. Just because it works doesn't necessarily mean it's sized right. A heat loss of the home tells us what size boiler is necessary to heat the home on the coldest day of the year.

Exisiting radiation is the heat emitter of the home. That could be, fin-tube basebard, cast iron baseboard, radiators, etc. It's important because once we know the heat loss we can then compare the capable heat output of those emitters to the heat loss at various water temperatures. This allows us to make the heating system more efficient from a water temperature delivery standpoint.

180 degree water. A standard hydronic heating system uses 180 degree water to heat the home. In standard systems this happens every day of the heating season. The only time you need that is on the coldest day of the year. The rest of the time your just wasting energy. General rule of thumb is that for every three degrees you can run a heating system with below 180 degree water you can save 1% of fuel. So by reducing that water temp you increase savings. It also allows for better comfort.

Any contractor that walks through your door should be doing a heat loss. Without it you are not assured the boiler is the correct size. Bigger is not better. Oversized boilers short cycle. This increases wear and tear which in turn leads to more service and maintenace as well as the cost for replacing parts. It also leads to burning more fuel then necessary.


All of these combined provide the information that you need to make the best decision on where you plan on investing your money. No contractor can tell you a lick about what you will save without doing these steps. Based on existing installations with condensing gas boilers I have been a part of customers are seeing anywhere from a 30-50% fuel savings along with better comfort.

Concerning payback..It's hard with fuel prices going all over the place to give an accurate payback. Look in the driveway. What was the payback on the vehicle you drive when you purchased it?  Comfort, better gas mileage, reliability? It may have been all of them but it never gave you back any dollars. A efficient and properly heating system will provide you savings and better comfort for years to come. 

You forgot

@ March 19, 2011 1:47 PM in Oil or LPG

The most important questions. What is the heat loss of my home? Did you compare the heat loss to the existing radiation? Am I able to run my heating system utlizing less than 180 degree water? Water temp relates to efficiency the lower you can run a heating system the more fuel savings you gain. That's why a condensing LP boiler may be the best bet.

The anwsers to these questions would help you in making a decision on what type of boiler to go with. I would go with LP. You have plenty of choices in brands of lp condensing boilers while in oil you are limted to a few.
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