Joined on December 29, 2008
Last Post on March 9, 2014
@ March 20, 2011 8:21 AM in Do I use a control here?Ice,
You will also see in the Viessmann piping diagram that the exp tank and feed are below it. We are still pumping away from the point of no pressure change. Circulators were put on the returns because it was easier for boiler mfg to crate them and they could also get more on a truck is they packaged them that way. If you look at the diagram in the Series 2 installation manual it state the the pump on the supply is the preferred spot.
@ March 20, 2011 8:10 AM in Trac PipePage 57 describes how they want it bonded. Follow the installation manual that few even open. Whether you agree or disagree with the product we all should still promote that if used, it is done in accordance with the mfg installation manual.
@ March 19, 2011 8:09 PM in Do I use a control here?Circ needs to be on the supply after the exp tank for starters. Please post some pics.
@ March 19, 2011 4:07 PM in Do I use a control here?You have a one zone conversion from what? If a by-pass was used how was it piped and what regulates the flow out to the system and through the bypass? Can you post a pic or at a min a diagram of how the boiler is piped?
@ March 19, 2011 3:31 PM in Oil or LPGI'll try to make it easier for you to understand. Let's start with, House is what it is?
We need to define what the house needs. Just because it works doesn't necessarily mean it's sized right. A heat loss of the home tells us what size boiler is necessary to heat the home on the coldest day of the year.
Exisiting radiation is the heat emitter of the home. That could be, fin-tube basebard, cast iron baseboard, radiators, etc. It's important because once we know the heat loss we can then compare the capable heat output of those emitters to the heat loss at various water temperatures. This allows us to make the heating system more efficient from a water temperature delivery standpoint.
180 degree water. A standard hydronic heating system uses 180 degree water to heat the home. In standard systems this happens every day of the heating season. The only time you need that is on the coldest day of the year. The rest of the time your just wasting energy. General rule of thumb is that for every three degrees you can run a heating system with below 180 degree water you can save 1% of fuel. So by reducing that water temp you increase savings. It also allows for better comfort.
Any contractor that walks through your door should be doing a heat loss. Without it you are not assured the boiler is the correct size. Bigger is not better. Oversized boilers short cycle. This increases wear and tear which in turn leads to more service and maintenace as well as the cost for replacing parts. It also leads to burning more fuel then necessary.
All of these combined provide the information that you need to make the best decision on where you plan on investing your money. No contractor can tell you a lick about what you will save without doing these steps. Based on existing installations with condensing gas boilers I have been a part of customers are seeing anywhere from a 30-50% fuel savings along with better comfort.
Concerning payback..It's hard with fuel prices going all over the place to give an accurate payback. Look in the driveway. What was the payback on the vehicle you drive when you purchased it? Comfort, better gas mileage, reliability? It may have been all of them but it never gave you back any dollars. A efficient and properly heating system will provide you savings and better comfort for years to come.
@ March 19, 2011 1:47 PM in Oil or LPGThe most important questions. What is the heat loss of my home? Did you compare the heat loss to the existing radiation? Am I able to run my heating system utlizing less than 180 degree water? Water temp relates to efficiency the lower you can run a heating system the more fuel savings you gain. That's why a condensing LP boiler may be the best bet.
The anwsers to these questions would help you in making a decision on what type of boiler to go with. I would go with LP. You have plenty of choices in brands of lp condensing boilers while in oil you are limted to a few.
@ March 19, 2011 11:18 AM in Radiant floor not making setpointI flipped it to Quik Trak and change floor r-value just to get an idea. Its' attached. Big difference. I adjusted my air changes because of the fireplace. Generally I would be using a .35 air change not a .5. My setpoint is also only 68 if I boost it to 70 then that water temp goes up to 120. Loss changes a little do to downward loss.
If I move that air change up to .75 which I generally use for a baseboard loss that water temp rises to 130. Mark is right on with the blower door test. Its most likley an infiltration issue.
@ March 19, 2011 9:33 AM in Radiant floor not making setpointI just ran based on the drawing and info in the thread. Based on the sqft 3 loops of 200 - water temp is 145. I used 20 degrees as below temp in the crawl space with R-30 insulation value in the floor. Your floor r-value is high.... 1.78
Take a peak as I converting the heat loss and radiant panel report to a PDF. If there is anything you see that needs a changing in the what I used in the heat loss please let me know and I will adjust. I guessed at the size of the windows made them 3x5's..
@ March 19, 2011 9:07 AM in Radiant thermostats using floor sensors?Programable and allow for either just floor sensing, air sensing or a combination of both. Also learns the cycles of the room.
@ March 18, 2011 9:22 PM in Japan Nuke plantsBury the darn thing...Problem solved!!!! How long would that take a week or so. Did it in Russia in about a week 20 years ago. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing the news agencies now questioning if America's plant are safe. This was a natural disaster for sakes. Should we be planning to make us safe for the next ice age...Nope. We'll find someone to blame for that too.
@ March 18, 2011 9:13 PM in Radiant floor not making setpointWhat is the floor surface? I'll take a peak at your diagram with my morning coffee.
@ March 18, 2011 8:47 PM in Why is the Return On the TopHave to define the forumla as it pertains to the in's and out's of the header. What is T4, F4. Here is my reason for wanting the math.
The concept is great for mutiple zones with radiant. On a condensing boiler I would take my supply and return from the boiler side anyway. If I have a single temp radiant system with 2 zones same water temp my header is done for me here. It make the install a breeze in the labor end. Same goes for radiant and panel rads. It may easy the cost of a job. Ten degrees in the difference between the supply ports of the DHW and System side could make a huge difference in design. Same could also be said of a cast iron or cast rad zone and a fin-tube zone.
The thought process of this could bring great advantages in system cost in alot of systems that are using condensing boilers. Plus I'm a wet head and I need to know how it works.
@ March 18, 2011 3:56 PM in Why is the Return On the TopIts just a hollow piece of copper. They already are making a change in it. I didn't notice this but there was a spot for a LWCO in it. There changing that. The tech agreed that there would be blending but didn't have the math. If someone from Peerless engineering peers in...Please provide the math for this. The DWH spot could be used other things...
@ March 18, 2011 1:19 PM in Why is the Return On the TopThe blend is really the question HR. Since the cooler water is at the top and the hottest water at the bottom would the same math as given on a traditional hydro sepearator be the same?
What about the indirect zone in this case? Would it not see blended water?
I'm sorry for all the can't see the pic clearly. I had to scan it. I do not have a PDF of this.
@ March 18, 2011 9:35 AM in Why is the Return On the TopThis was a copy from a copies that was made and left out at the counter of one of the branches. I just happen to see it.
@ March 17, 2011 9:56 PM in Why is the Return On the TopHaven't had a chance to ask them. Going to call them tomorrow though.
@ March 17, 2011 9:44 PM in Why is the Return On the TopBut in a separator the returns are at the bottom. Importnat because the coldest water stays there and warmer water rises to the mix. If at the top wouldn't the colder water fall and warmer water head to the boiler?
@ March 17, 2011 9:39 PM in Why is the Return On the TopIt's the closet I can also find to the Peerless. Still though on the Peerless return is at the top and supply the bottom. The opposite of these..I'm also curious as to sediment/debris heading towards the pumps as it falls from the top to the bottom.
@ March 17, 2011 9:34 PM in Why is the Return On the TopI have this and also the idronics manual. The actual closer match to the LLH in question is the Hydro-Link on page 19 at the bottom of the attached. But again supply is top return is bottom and the opposite on the header in question. So is the anwser the math is just reveresed? I don't know. Cold air falls, hot air rises. The same effect happens in a LLH cold water stays at the bottom warmer water rises to give a mix effect. With the return at the top does colder water fall to the bottom towards the supply and warmer water head back to the boiler?
@ March 17, 2011 9:11 PM in Why is the Return On the TopI here what your saying. I thank you for the reply and your dweller sense makes sense. I'm curious as to the math to figure out system side water temp and also any possible effects the pumps might see from debris/sediment as it falls from the return at the top. Especially in cast rads or cast board systems.
@ March 17, 2011 8:53 PM in Why is the Return On the TopI came across the attached today and as a hydronics guy of course I wanted to know the science behind it. While it's named a low loss header I just can't grasp the science behind it.
Normally on a LLH supply is top and return is bottom. I have the math for that which is also attached. How would you figure supply side system temp for this? If you look at a true LLH it basically gives a mix. Colder water back to the boiler warmer water rising and mixing with boiler water giving you a supply temp different from boiler temp. With this strategy cold water would be falling, Would the math just be reversed? How would you figure supply water temp?
Also one of the benefits the lit gives you is that this is like a low loss header in the fact that it acts as a catcher of debris and sediment. If the return is at the top and the debris or sediment falls to the bottom what long term effect could that have on the dhw or system pump? Would that sediment or debris be pulled in to them? Would you pull the check out of the dhw pump and use a separate flow check?
I'm asking because this is a very neat concept and I want to understand and be able to figure the science on what happens inside with water temps based on flow rates. The thoughts about possible pump problems also has me curious.
ME this is right up your ally. I figured you'd have a good opinion on this.
@ March 15, 2011 8:37 PM in Pellet with Hot air vs Propane with radiantHere ya go.. Page 12..Its a coming.. Real soon too..