Heating Help

ULC-S636

@ October 11, 2010 8:58 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

Rating is for 195 degrees

Has No Bearing

@ October 11, 2010 8:53 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

On my beliefs and what jobs I personally have my hand on. I am proud that I am able to educate my customers to give them the ability to sell a true vent pipe.

What's funny is that I am the only true stocking Viessmann distributor in my market while everyone else slings the same Triangle, Peerless, Burnham, Buderus etc and I have no problem competing against them with a higher priced boiler with a higher priced vent system.You know why?

Education and teaching my customers to give their customers the choice. It's not up to us to decided for them it's up to us to provide them with options.

Mark

@ October 11, 2010 8:43 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

Would have got back earlier but it's been a hectic Monday.

I would never question your ethics or installation practices. You as many that come here are ahead of the curve which I think we forget sometimes.  Tradesmen of your caliber account for less than 2 percent of the industry overall. If you feel that your installation practices are safe which I have no doubt they are that is fine with me.

You like may others take the precautions necessay to make sure that you don't put yourself into a bad situation but to give a green light to every, side jobber, handyman and inexperienced contractor is an issue in my mind. Sometimes I think that those that come here and share forget they are only a microdot of what goes on in the real world.

I have no agenda to ride a wave. I have been practicing my beliefs and standards to my customers for many years and will stand pat on them until a manufacturer shows me some testing data.  My promotion of a product is to show that there is a cost effective vent product that can be used and that we all should take a look at it.

I truly feel that PVC is looked at as the cheapiest way to vent. It is not looked at as the best way by our trade in general. I feel it is important to educate the consumer/homeowner so they are given a choice of how they want their appliance vented versus the tradesman choosing it for them.

If more tradesman took the few minutes to explain that PVC is not rated as a vent pipe but they have an alternative which may cost them a few extra bucks you may see PVC slowly go away. By the trade offering an alternative it also gives them the chance to make a few extra bucks. Instead we are afraid to offer a vent pipe because we may lose a job so we don't even offer it to the consumer. Who are we to make the choice. Our job is to educated our customers and let them make the choice.

If PVC is so safe for venting then why do boiler manufacturers list it as the "highlight" way to vent but don't state that the ASTM they list has nothing to do with venting? What are they afraid of? The use of listing the ASTM is used as smoke and mirrors that provides false comfort. If they list it they should have to state that it has nothing to do with venting.  They shouldn't be able to ride both sides of the fence.

They all list AL24C or ULC-S636 but it's always the second and third choices. Shouldn't PVC be the 3rd choice with the statement and the others since they are vent pipes first and second?

So as long as they promote PVC as the "highlight vent method" with no testing data, I will stand my gound on a vent system that is rated as a vent system and give customers the choice through education based on what information is available.

It's always a pleasure. Its off to answer al the other replies.. Best Wishes...

Sagging

@ October 11, 2010 9:12 AM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

The issue becomes the sagging of the pipe which in turn will allow for the formation of puddles of water in the vent system. Pressure is irrelevant. Don't need any pressure to soften the plastic from heat.

Knead the Dough

@ October 11, 2010 7:19 AM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

Cause never have.

Persoanlly

@ October 10, 2010 10:06 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

I have never sold a piece of PVC to vent a boiler.

Yes and NO

@ October 10, 2010 8:59 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

We have 20 plus branches in four states. My branch NO! It's the only mod/con we sell and we do very very very well with it. I'm originally from New England and started selling Viessman 20 years ao and feel its the best line our there. I've always been a fan of the system approach vs a boiler approach. We are the only stocking Viessmann distributor South of Albany NY into NJ. There are a few other distributors in NJ but they just dabble. Have no clue about the line just try to compete based on price. Which is fine with me. I have the technical support and hydronic support among other programs for true Viessmann guys so trying to compete with me on price is fruitless. One of the weaknesses all other supply houses in the market have is strong hydronic support.

Sprinter

@ October 10, 2010 8:14 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

Generally your stack temp in a condensing gas boilers will be between 15 and 20 degrees higher than your return water temperature. With that said you have to take into considerations the high limit/stack limits on the boilers. Generally they are 210 degrees.

That is why the standard for condensing boilers should be 230 degrees. PVC begins to breakdown "melt" at 160 degrees. So a system that has a domestic hot water tank sees that 160 when the boiler fires to its limit. Also while the mass of guys that come here and do heat losses set heating curves the majority of contractors do not. They bang these types of boilers off the 180 degree water temp. Some don't even put them on outdoor reset.

The big hang up with me is that boiler manufacturers have not shown any testing data nor will they return phone calls or e-mails when you inquire. That to me is concerning. Just because a manufacture says its ok to use a product doesn't mean its ok. They all list other ways of venting but highlight the cheapeast way.Why? To make the boiler affordable to consumers.

This is one of the many reasons I stick with Viessmann. They do not and will not allow PVC on their boilers. Until someone shows me some testing data I'll stick to making sure I sell a vent pipe that is a vent pipe

Thousands Upon Thousands

@ October 10, 2010 3:17 PM in pex for baseboard hyronics ?

Feet of Pex tubing on baseboard jobs. No problems no worries...

When a Boiler Manufacturer

@ October 10, 2010 3:10 PM in Buderus

Can produce testing for me that states PVC can handle flue gas temps up to 230 degrees I will be more than happy to sell it. In the meantime I'll stick with I-PEX CPVC and Coaxial Vent Pipe.

They both are an easy sell because they are rated as a VENT PIPE!  Sit down with a consumer and explain to them that there is no testing on PVC as a vent pipe and that the ASTM rating listed has nothing to do with venting  but these two other types of venting material are rated. Also let them know that the boiler manufacuturer that states you can use PVC as a vent pipe won't produce any testing data to you. Which do you think they want?

PVC is a cheap way to keep the cost of an already expensive piece of equipment down and that's the real truth as to why boiler manufaucturers use it as a vent pipe.

I don't see any Misinformation

@ October 10, 2010 2:55 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

In any of the posts. The question is.  What testing data  does Burnham have that rates PVC or even CPVC as a vent pipe? Absolutely none. Call them up and ask them. Tell them you have a customer that wants to see the testing data before they decided on their install.  

CPVC is still only rated to 190 degrees. Only I-Pex ULC-S636  CPVC has a rating of 230 degrees and is stamped as a vent pipe. ULC-S636 is a Canadian standard and not a US Standard.

The problem with getting a plastic pipe rated by UL comes from the PlexVent days. One of the test that is required is that the pipe can handle 430 degrees. Not going to happen with plastic. I know of a plastics manufacturer that has passed every test to get their vent pipe UL rated and they are working on getting a clarification on this required test as it's product it directed toward the condensing boiler market where we do not see flue gas temps higher than 200 degrees. They want the standard for that final test changed to reflect 230 degrees for condensing boilers. This is a realistic test. Even at that rating PVC will never be rated as a vent pipe. 

Venting PVC is just a way to make condensing boilers which are already higher priced than conventional boiler some what affordable to consumers. InnoFlue has been approved by pretty much every boiler manufacture for use on their boiler except for Burnham because they can't get anyone from Burnham to return their phone call. It's even approved by Bradford White for venting Power Vented Water Heaters.

What's more important. The comfort of knowing you just installed a true vent system for your customer that carries a warranty or knowing you just installed a plastic that is not rated for venting. Are the few dollars and I mean few dollars in cost difference really worth it.

Pay

@ October 10, 2010 1:00 PM in Congrats to the RPA on their name change...

I didn't form my group for money. My satisfaction is in helping the local guys in education and growing their business. I have to agree with you that it's a ton and I mean a ton or work. I've spent many nights to the wee hours of the morning working on behalf of them.

I don't belong to any other trade associations as there is nothing on our market besides a oil heat and service managers association but they spend more time worrying about how to sell oil and that is only a small and I mean small segment of the market here.

I think that I am going to contact the RPA and inquire how I could merge the current organization into a chapter and how it would benefit us. We are just a few months away from membership renewal and this may create better avenues for us in the big picture.

One of my concerns is lossing the revenue that we currently get from our associate manufacturer and rep members. It's something that I have to ponder but it is worth reasearching. There is a big need in our market for a National Association and the RPA fits us better than a PHCC Chapter.

Vitrorond

@ October 9, 2010 12:11 PM in Viessman versus System 2000 versus Biasi

The 316-Ti Stainless Steel insert in the Vitorond will get the boiler to steady state faster than the others. To you that means better efficiencies throughout the entire boiler cycle. Also keeps the boiler cleaner. You can also take the indirect directly from the boiler and not from the system side provided you are using a Viessmann control. A few years ago I had an oil company that wanted to try them. They installed 30 boilers that season. Not one problem or call back. Boilers were clean as a whistle when they did there yearly service. Then they stopped buying them. I asked why? The anwser I got. Great boiler, love them. Unfortunatley our customers were saving 30% or more on their fuel usage and we are in the business of selling oil so we don't want to install them anymore. That was 2 years ago. Now with consumers being more frugal with investing in boilers that save fuel dollars they are back sellling them again.

What is The Inspector

@ October 8, 2010 11:46 PM in Buderus

Saying your have to do? You are not being specific. I will state that Mass may be the first state that outlaws PVC as a vent material. Maybe sooner than we think.

Sorry but Sad

@ October 8, 2010 11:40 PM in Navien in trouble with the DOE

Is beliving the ratrings. You do know that mfgs test for the ratings in house. There is no independr agency that tests and says a particluar appliance has a specific AFUE of in this case EF rating. Notice you lead on PRICE,,,You get what you pay for!

Get Rid of the PVC

@ October 8, 2010 7:54 PM in Buderus

Get rid of the PVC and the insulation and vent with a vent pipe. Is the inspector telling you that you can't run the PVC or add the insulation? PVC begins to degrade at about 160 degrees. I was just in a meeting today talking about Mass code. We have stores there and venting PVC is going to be an upcoming issue. Seems like you have already felt it.

I would Suggest

@ October 8, 2010 7:50 PM in Buderus

That you ask Buderus for their testing on PVC as a vent material. The inspectors know that PVC is not and I repeat not approved for venting by the ASTM they list in their manual. It's not about fire. I can count tens of thousands of jobs that have insulation on domestic plumbing pipe that are insulated in garages.

The inspector is actually protecting you from a potential venting problem. That problem being that PVC IS NOT a VENT PIPE!

I've Found The Answer

@ October 8, 2010 7:41 PM in CPVC / PVC - boilers

Don't use it... I had my second meeting today with CentroTherm..It is approved by just about everyone boiler mfg. The only boiler manufacture that hasn't step to the plate is Burnham. Sorry guys but it's true.

It is also approved for venting Noritz Condensing On Demands. Finally, the opportunity to sell a vent system that carries a 10 yr warranty...Which would you rather sell.. PVC which has none or a system that is not much more (can't discuss pricing) but does.

I know the pro's here will! www.centrotherm.us.com

Why?

@ October 8, 2010 7:32 PM in Buderus

Why would it freeze if it's pitched back like it should be. The condensate would do it's job and run back to the boiler. I know the answer...Your venting PVC and they are afraid you may get some sagging. Use a vent pipe that is rated as a vent pipe and carries a warranty....  www.centrotherm.us.com

Why Would You Insulate

@ October 8, 2010 7:11 PM in Buderus

The vent pipe? It's a condensing boiler and should be pitched back to it!

On Added Suggestion

@ October 8, 2010 6:19 PM in Need Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating Help HERE

I have done my sare of kitchens and do yourself a favor and put in a Wirsbo 511s. You want a floor sensor in the kitchen. The 511 will look at both air and floor and learn the curve. If you have a wife that likes to cook and you gather in near or in the kitchen it's a must. I've seen many of jobs without it and many people complaining about cold floors and little comfort. Spend the few extra bucks on it.

Other Navien Post

@ October 8, 2010 6:15 PM in Navien Heat Exchanger Problems

That other post Supply House Rick posted has to be eating at you...Suggest you find another brand...Go Nortiz...