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Jean-David Beyer

Jean-David Beyer

Joined on January 9, 2009

Last Post on April 13, 2014

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Squirrel pie being my favorite.

@ April 13, 2014 10:24 PM in But he's SO cute

Just avoid eating anything contaminated by their brains. It may be caught from them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creutzfeldt%E2%80%93Jakob_disease

trust the homeowner is smart enough to turn a valve

@ April 7, 2014 7:54 AM in Install electric tank

I know a married couple who do not even know how to operate an old round Honeywell thermostat. A simple on-off switch would work as well. They think the higher they set it, the faster it will heat their house, and the lower they set it, the faster it will cool down. They do not have a modulating boiler, and they do not have a proportional thermostat. Same for their air conditioners. I tried to get them to just leave it alone, but they think it saves energy to have the heat completely off during the day when they are at work, and on in the evening, and off at night. Well, if it gets really cold during the day, and their pipes freeze up (not likely, but not impossible here in New Jersey), fixing that will probably cost more than 12 hours a day saved on heating oil. For them, I would take the handles off the valves. But they would lose them, and that would annoy anyone who needed to operate them.

I have no idea what happens when they inherit my house with a mod-con with outdoor reset. The reset curve is set so tight that I maintain 69F. But when I turned up the thermostat up to 70F, it never made it because the reset did not deliver hot enough water to deliver it. They will probably replace the boiler because it is too small. Actually, it is about twice the size needed, but was the smallest one available at the time. (May 2009) I have a fancy programmable thermostat with 28 different temperature settings possible. I bought that when I thought it would save energy. But most of the house is radiant slab at grade, and unless I want to change the temperature for a week or more, I just leave it alone at constant temperature. I could put in a simple thermostat there but why bother?

puts water back in the air so it's not dry.

@ April 2, 2014 5:48 PM in Value of converting oil/steam to modcon gas?

"For allergy reason this is the best system out there it puts water back in the air so it's not dry."

I used to work in an extremely large building that was heated internally by two duct systems coming in, and a plenum for the return air. One duct had cold air (about 45F, IIRC) and the other had hot air (perhaps 90F), and each room had a pneumatic thermostat that operated a mixing box in the room. All around the outside of the building were the only windows (a "glass box" building) that had steam baseboard heating elements.

To humidify the space in winter, they used steam from the main boilers. When the humidity was too low, they just shot steam from the boilers into some mixing boxes in the hot air line to raise the humidity. Nothing else would serve the moisture demand.

I cannot imagine the steam that leaks from the vent valve on a steam radiator could do enough humidity recovery in any realistic situation. My grandparents had steam heat (converted to oil a little after WW-II), and every radiator had a water pot at one end and a thin chamber with a wick in it that ran between the elements of the radiators. My grandmother had to refill them every day. Their system must not have been knuckleheaded as  was silent except for a little hiss as the boiler started up. I remember when a brand new GE steam boiler was installed one summer to replace the old boiler.Theirs was one of these: http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1025/177.pdf I do not know which one, but it was a large three story house that had three fireplaces that were not much used.

The dishwasher requires hot water settings of at least 130 degrees for the detergent to work properly.

@ April 2, 2014 11:57 AM in Hot Water Tanks and Sizes

I wondered about this, so I looked at the installation manual of my dishwasher. It did not really matter since the water piping is buried in my concrete slab along with the radiant heating tubing, and there is no separate water pipe for the dishwasher, so I could not supply water over 120F anyway. The water leaves my indirect at about 125F and the most I can get from the nearest tap is 120F. The dishwasher is some distance farther away, so it gets a little less.

My dishwasher's owner's manual says:
"Inlet Water Temperature: 120ᵒF (40ᵒC)"

The installation manual says:
"1. This dishwasher may be connected to either hot or cold water. If the water can not be maintained below 149ᵒF (65ᵒC), the dishwasher must be connected to cold water."

Since it can run on cold water, I infer it has an electric heater in it. It must be on a dedicated circuit with a 15Amp circuit breaker. Well, the rest of it does not need 15 amp, so that must be for its internal water heater. Mine is hooked up to the hot water to minimize electrical cost.

As a homeowner...

@ March 26, 2014 12:05 PM in Billing format

I would like to see an itemized bill in fair detail. Not down to the last inch of teflon tape and a bunch of nipples. I do not realistically expect a contractor to present me with what I want, and I would not even presume to ask for such a thing, considering the competitive pressures contractors are exposed to.

But if the list included:

Cost of major items; e.g., anything over 5% or 10% of the total job cost. It could be the contractor's cost, or the retail price of the stuff. Because some customers will look these things up on the Internet anyway and will object to being charged more for the items than the Internet price, ignoring that the contractor gets stuck with a lot of the warranty expense, and may also keep a lot of it in stock. When my PRV quits on new year's eve, I do not want to wait a few days to get a replacement on the Internet...

Labor. I bet some customers would be astounded at what that actually costs, because they cannot imagine paying for time between shop and the home, etc. Or the time to rush off to a distributor for an unexpectedly needed part not carried on the truck (electronic control board, for example).

Overhead including trucks, test equipment, special tools...
Insurance
Office Expense
Warranty contingencies
Continuing Education of owner and employees.
Profit.

Perhaps a few of these could be combined, or subdivided.

Because I do want to see enough profit in there. If the contractor does not make enough profit, he may hang it up and not be there when I need him later. And I will need him later.

  1. So for me, profit is not a dirty word, but a sign of a well-run business. Remember, the owner could have invested that money on the stock market instead, and raked in the money without actually working. Since the owner generally has to do some of the work, he deserves a salary for the work and the profit at least as much as he would have made investing it in something other than the contracting business.

So lets say you have Mr skilled labor tear it out.

@ March 23, 2014 6:23 PM in are asbestos risks overblown?

I read about a case where Mr. skilled labor worked with asbestos at his job.
He went home and Mrs. skilled labor washed his clothes and she got Mesothelioma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesothelioma

PROBLEMS ARE NOT DUE TO LACK OF SUPPLY BUT OLD PIPING

@ March 18, 2014 2:28 PM in ? for Tim .Condensate in gas line/or sabotage

In my neighborhood, they replaced the 60 year old iron (or steel) piping that had a nominal 15 PSI pressure (actually closer to 8 PSI if I remember correctly) that looked about 3" to 4" diameter with plastic piping at least an inch bigger in diameter and had 50 PSI in it. On my short street (a dead end one short block long) they had already removed the iron pipe and replaced it with about 2 1/2-inch plastic pipe, and to my house was 1-inch plastic just up to where the pipe came out of the ground, where it was steel. That went into a pressure regulator and into the meter. After the meter it is 1-inch black pipe, 1-inch CSST (damn) and then back to black pipe down to the boiler.

Many many people on my street are running gas boilers now.

They did the changeover both because the demand went way up since just after WW-II, but also because they were spending a fortune digging up the streets every few weeks to fix leaks. I think that it was probably cheaper to replace all that old pipe than to come out all the time to fix leaks.

CH4 + O2 --> CO2 + H2O

@ March 15, 2014 12:55 PM in Propane and condensate

CH4 + 2O2 --> CO2 + 2H2O

That's a little harsh,

@ March 11, 2014 10:39 PM in Gas ignitor only lasts one heating system

I did not mean to imply that they were deliberately breaking the ignitors, just that they did not realize how fragile they were once they had been used for a year. And that was only the least of the reasons for switching contractors.

It was just as the contractor's business expanded, they could not (or did not) increase the number of qualified technicians and they could not manage their business as well as when they were smaller.. When I, as a homeowner, find out that I know more than the contractor, it is time to find a better contractor.

I have no idea if the original poster here has a contractor problem. But he might take it up with the boss of the contracting outfit. I did not mean to imply that it was being done deliberately.

I have the third edition of John Siegenthaler's big book.

@ March 11, 2014 6:06 PM in Anyone familiar with "Heat Load Pro" software?

It comes with a CD with a educational version of his programs. They are stripped down. They are good enough to practice with, for example doing the examples in the text. But several things may make you judge his professional programs too harshly.

1.) You cannot save your work (you can in the full version), so you have to do the whole thing at one sitting.

2.) I think you can do only two zones.

3.) I think you can have only one room per zone.

That was good enough for me (a homeowner), but it is pretty clear that a heating professional would want the complete version. From what I see of it, it is really good.

What else can I have looked at?

@ March 11, 2014 6:01 PM in Gas ignitor only lasts one heating system

I am responsible for two 125,000 BTU/hour forced hot air furnaces. They were installed by what was (formerly) a good contractor. Time passed and they became more successful and started buying up some of the competition. Then ignitors started failing during each service call. After a few seasons of this, we replaced contractors, and we have not replaced ignitors in over 3 years.

I've never found a problem system with a expansion tank that was too big.

@ March 11, 2014 1:47 PM in What is the safety zone in PSI for boiler pressure (and temp if important) for hot water Boiler heating system?

Other than the waste of money, what is the problem with too big an expansion tank? Is it like having too much venting on a steam main?

the boilers modulate down

@ March 8, 2014 5:07 PM in Sizing a boiler in Watertown, MA

"Everyone told me not to worry about the apparently large size because
the boilers modulate down"

I am a homeowner, not a heating contractor. My installing contractor did the same thing. But I read John Seigenthaler's big book (second edition) and the installation manual for the boiler the contractor recommended. So, since the contractor did not do a heat loss, I did one three different ways. The easiest was to look at the nozzle of the old oil burner and calculate 70,000 BTU/hour (input) that not only ALWAYS gave enough heat, but rapid cycled its entire life. It never leaked and never died. So I insisted on getting the smallest boiler in the product line. And that turns out to be about twice the size I calculated for my house in this location.

It is true that a mod-con can modulate down, but based on only one boiler, the smallest in the product line, it does not modulate down anywhere near enough. In my small zone, it will not modulate down enough even when it is 14F below design temperature outside. Even the large zone, that is about 5 times greater heat load, it cycles more rapidly than I prefer when it gets somewhat over 50F outside. So I suggest getting the smallest mod-con you can find that is any good. I cannot say what boiler that would be.

"And each told me that the DHW tank is the one
that is driving their higher calculations."

Perhaps. I just calculated what size DHW tank (an indirect) I thought I would need using the manufacturer's  little charts. And I have never run out of hot water. THe thing is that the boiler is set up to give priority to the domestic hot water, so if there is hot water demand, it shuts off the house and puts the entire output of the boiler into the indirect. And that runs about 10 minutes at a time, two or three times a day. That makes no difference. If I had 6 teen age daughters, and a wife who runs a coin-up laundry in the garage, that would not work out, but I do not have a giant hot water demand. And if I had such a demand, depending on what its profile is during the day, perhaps a larger tank would work. Say if I ran the dishwasher, the washing machine on sanitary cycle, and washing my car with hot water in the wintertime, Only the shower and the washing the car would draw water for a long time.  But how long is a shower? 72,000 BTU/hour going into the indirect and 2 gpm coming out the shower head for 15 minutes? A few gallons at the start for the washing machine. A couple of gallons for the dishwasher? I do not usually do that, and I have never washed my car with hot water. And my indirect is nominally 40 gallons, but 6 gallons are in the outer tank and 34 or so are the domestic hot water. Sometimes I do the dishes or take a shower and the indirect does not even call for heat.

trying to do the same thing

@ March 6, 2014 1:13 PM in TT PE110 longer run times

"I am trying to do the same thing
but not only are you tweaking outdoor reset but you also have to factor
in the boiler pump vs system pumps for my system at least.  So even if
your tstat is still calling, you may reach set point quickly."

If you reach the set point quickly, your supply temperature is too high. You want it to be just a tiny bit higher than what is required to maintain the temperature. So you adjust the reset curve accordingly. If you cannot do that, it is likely that your boiler is oversized.


"If all of my zones are calling, the boiler is fine but if one tstat gets
satisfied, the burner can not modulate down fast enough and hits its
setpoint and shuts down.  "

How long does it take to modulate down? Mine will do that in well under two minutes. Is it a question as to how fast it will modulate? Or a question of whether it will modulate down far enough no matter how much time it is given?


"I also have pulse width modulating tstat for my radiant heated slabs
that also can affect burn times, the closer to the setting, the shorter
the burn times like 10-12 minutes."

For radiant slabs, it seems to me the best thermostat is a simple on-off one like the old round mercury-filled Honeywell ones. but they are not the only ones.


"How long are your burn times and how much delay are you running for your burner?"

Today, and is is not terribly cold outside (25F), my radiant slab zone has been calling for heat for 9 hours 24 minutes since midnight. Chances are it fired continuously for that time, but I did not go out to the garage, where the boiler is, to watch it the whole time. When I do watch it, it tends to run continuously when the zone is calling for heat. (It is a different story when only my small baseboard zone calls for heat, because the boiler will modulate down only to 16,000 BTU/hr and that zone needs only 6250 BTU/ hour when it is 14F below the design temperature. So my boiler is way oversized for that one zone. Even in that zone, though, it promptly modulates down to the lower limit and wanders up to the upper limit, about 4 to 6 cycles per hour, depending on outside temperature.

How many BTU's does a human give off while sitting in this room?

@ March 6, 2014 12:57 PM in computer room heat gain question

I do not know about when sitting, but when working about as hard as he can, a human can put out about 1/7 horsepower. I do not know if he can do that hour after hour or not. But that should get you into the ballpark.

To get the longest run times,

@ March 5, 2014 8:17 PM in TT PE110 longer run times

To get the longest run times, use the lowest supply temperatures you can get, consistent with being able to achieve the temperatures you want. This involves setting your outdoor reset curve correctly.

I have a radiant slab at grade. My design temperature (outside) is 14F, but this year it got down to just under 3F a couple of times. With my 1150 square foot Cape Cod here in New Jersey, and trying for 69F inside, I supply 76F water to the slab until it gets down to 50F outside. I then let the supply temperature to increase in a straight line until it gets to 0F outside and the supply temperature is 128F.

With that, the run times get shorter and shorter as the outdoor temperature increases. but when it is under 50F outside, I get run times of 10 to 18 hours sometimes. I could squeeze it a little bit more but then it responds to changes in outdoor temperature too slowly. As it is, I cannot get the indoor temperature over 70F by changing the thermostat setting  because the supply temperature is not high enough.

There is no secret, really. Just weeks of boring set and test. Because with my slab, it takes about 24 hours to really stabilize the heating again after making a temperature change. (So forget about setbacks).

install manual for the Weil Mclain ultra an antiquated design

@ March 4, 2014 11:26 PM in Ultra 155

I do not think the design W-M supply for near-boiler piping is antiquated. It seems to be quite similar to what John Seigenthaler shows in his big book. In  any case, I have never had any problems with the piping other than a ball valve whose bonnet needed tightening after a few months of operation, and a noisy circulator that needed to be replaced under warranty.

It might matter which W-M Ultra series you have. I have an Ultra 3 80, and I have read the Ultra 2 manual, though I no longer have a copy. Their piping diagrams were pretty much the same, if I remember correctly. W-M now make newer models that they do not call Ultra 4, and they seem about the same for piping as the Ultra 3s.

My installing contractor did a couple of things right. One was that they used 1 1/4 inch piping in the boiler loop, where for my model W-M said it must be at least 1 inch. This got the flow speed through the microbubble resorber to be lower.

The other thing they did was that W-M said the closely spaced Ts should be no more than 12 inches apart, but they put them 5 inches apart.

One zone takes several hours to heat,

@ March 4, 2014 12:05 AM in in floor radiant problem

I am a homeowner, not a heating professional. But it is fine with me if my radiant slab zone (5 loops, not one the same size as another) takes 12 to 18 hours to heat. And when it is quite cold outside, it does. It does not matter to me how long it takes because for that zone; my mod-con boiler just modulates down to the supply temperature needed. If I were attempting setbacks, that would not work, but it makes no sense to me to use setbacks on a radiant slab at grade heating zone anyway.

I am not sure what you mean by an open direct system. Do you mean one that is not pressurized? And by direct, do you mean that there is no heat exchanger other than the one in the boiler?

If your other zones are also radiant slab zones, I find it impossible to believe you can make significant temperature changes to a zone in 15 to 20 minutes unless you run extremely hot water in them, and if you did that, you could burn your feet walking barefoot, and you would get enormous overshoot after your thermostat was satisfied.

In my system I can run 76F supply water into my slab and satisfy my thermostat provided it is over 50F outside. At 14F outside (design temperature), I need 114F supply temperature, and at 0F, I need 128F supply. With 76F supply, it looks like the delta-T is zero, but since it heats, it must be a little more than that, but it sure is less than 1F. With higher supply temperatures (when it is colder out), the delta-T is greater of course.

Webers...

@ March 1, 2014 4:52 PM in A challenge...

I had two Weber 40 DCOE's on both my Lotus 26's from the early to mid 1960s. They had a reputation for being difficult to adjust, but they were actually very easy to adjust, if you understood them and had a synchronizing tool. The only thing I did not like is if the butterfly valves (the ones hooked up to the gas pedal) in a single carburettor were out of synch. You had to put a wrench at each end of the shaft and twist it. Scary. They really needed very little adjustment.

But running an oil-fired heating boiler would be simpler than running a car engine. It would need no butterfly valve, no acceleration pump, no choke (well, Webers did have a choke, though you could not see it because it worked very differently from the others.

Those SU carburettors could, in theory, provide exactly correct mixture at all times, but they did not because the least amount of dust or dirt could impede the movement of the piston in there. and it was right in the air stream, so dust was always available. And if a mechanic was dumb enough to put oil on it, ... .

I would think they could do it.

@ March 1, 2014 2:09 PM in A challenge...

Remember in the old days when automobile engines used carburettors to mix the gasoline and air for combustion? It turns out that the mixture must be pretty much of a constant (I forget the ratio) over the entire speed-power needs of the engine from idle to maximum acceleration up a hill or anything in between. And they could do it. Now oil is more viscous than gasoline, so you would not use an automobile carburatter to run a modulating heating boiler..

The best ever automobile carburettors were made by an Italian named Eduardo Weber. And he started designing these thing to enable heating type oil to be burned in automobile engines. I do not know how well that worked, but they worked great on gasoline.

The main control of the fuel available to the engine was the disk in the throat (venturi) of the carburettor. For a heating boiler, I assume a variable speed fan would be used instead, since there are no pistons going up and down to power the air flow. Now in a venturi, the air flow mixture ratio is not right to maintain a constant mixture, so what is done is to bleed air into the gasoline mixture as it passes through the unit. This is done with a secondary jet in the gasoline stream with holes in it at various levels.l But in any case it can be done. So perhaps a similar technique could be used in the "carburettor" of a heating boiler.

Did any of those contractors do a heat loss calculation?

@ March 1, 2014 1:48 PM in Switching from Oil to Gas

1.) Did any of those contractors do a heat loss calculation?
2.) Did any of those contractors measure the emission of the heat emitters (the baseboards)
3.) Do any of those contractors know the design temperature of your neighborhood?
4.) Did any of those contractors ask you if you would consider increasing the size or effectiveness of the baseboard units you have?

Because if they did not, they do not know what they are talking about.

It may be that a mod-con boiler is not for you.

But what if the time your system spends heating and the outside temperature is considerably above the design temperature, and your baseboards are larger than necessary (perhaps because originally overdesigned, or because you improved the windows, insulation, outside air infiltration, it just might be that you could put low enough water into your baseboards to get condensation a lot of the heating season. And even if you do not, perhaps you would be willing to increase the size or type of baseboards so you could get condensation a lot of the time.

And even if you do not get condensation much of the time, the fact that the boiler modulates down will get you an efficiency increase because the flow of heat from the fire side of the heat exchanger into the water side is increased as that difference increases.

Which is heavier CO or air ?

@ February 26, 2014 11:19 AM in How many of you carry

If I remember high school chemistry correctly, all gasses at the same temperature and pressure weigh the same.

But in particular for these two gasses, they would certainly be the same because Avogadro's law states that, "equal volumes of all gases, at the same
temperature and pressure, have the same number of molecules"... Now the molecule of CO weighs 12 + 16 and "molecule" of air that is 80% nitrogen weighs 14 + 14. So they are the same. Actually, since air is 20% oxygen, would weigh a little more (16 + 16), so air would settle. Except for one thing: If they were all at the same temperature and pressure, they would be thoroughly mixed regardless of the weight of the molecules because unless the room were at absolute zero, the thermal energy of the molecules would keep them completely mixed.
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