Heating Help

Check This Out...

@ March 30, 2006 10:35 AM in Hummers

http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com/tax_info.aspx About $0.62 per gallon average throughout the states (counting federal taxes). That's about 24% where I live... I sometimes wonder if we as a country will ever learn - the CAFE hasn't been increased since the early eighties. Yes, the new law will help...too bad it took $3..00 per gallon to get there. I'll get off my soapbox now. Take Care, PJO

Awesome (NM)

@ March 28, 2006 4:22 PM in Update on my status (ME)

Take Care, PJO

If I May...

@ March 28, 2006 4:09 PM in Should I stick with Oil Heating for the 2006 winter next year?

I am not a contractor, but have a good deal of experience with both gas and oil...and I am making the same choice this summer at a property we own. In all the messages of this subject I haven't seen one person ask about the type of heating system this person has...IMHO that makes a difference to a degree. For example, if she has all baseboard and it's really beat then maybe it should be replaced with enough lengths in each room to lower the design feed temp to 150F...then you look harder at condensing technology and the gas boilers. If it's radiators, maybe the same philosophy with a different tact... If she just wants to replace the boiler and not touch the radiation, she should look seriously into a low volume oil-fired boiler like a Burnham LE-1 or Crown Freeport. Another difference between oil and condensing gas units is the upfront costs - don't think anybody mentioned that yet. Maybe she only has enough for a basic replacement, and not for condensing technology. Take Care, PJO

ME...

@ March 20, 2006 9:31 AM in You have cancer...(ME)

You are as forthright, strong and sensible as they come. Thank you for the great message. With all these Wallies - including myself - pulling for you, it will only make you stronger. Yes, it is amazing how ALL of us are affected by the many "faces" of this disease...I personally wish it were a little further away from my own family than it is, but such is the hand we are dealt from the big guy. Early detection is the key. God bless... Take Care, PJO

Thanks Murph!

@ March 20, 2006 9:24 AM in DO you remeber your first post?

I forgot I had my ugly mug in a couple of shots... Take Care, PJO

2001...

@ March 15, 2006 3:28 PM in DO you remeber your first post?

After I had been lurking for a while. I was asking about down-firing my dircet vent boiler w/ a smaller nozzle and a nice gent wrote back about getting a different baffle. Since then, it's been wonderful...went to the last "Classic Hydronics" seminar from Dan in Harrisburg, PA and met Dan H, PAH, HB, Murph, Starch, Floyd and Cheese. Murph was talking to me outside the room right before it started and then stood up and waived me up to the "Wallie section" - I sat right next to HB and immediately told him he has the coolest looking piping set-ups with that diamondplate...I was in heaven! Couldn't attend the small meeting afterwards which gave Dan the idea for Wetstock. Someone post the picture of the guys sitting there with a lovely beer selection if front of them PLEASE...it's from March 25, 2002 I believe (my daughter Katie's birthday - that's why I had to leave). I had tickets to the first Wetstock, but family issues made me give it back. Always wanted to go to one but life had a way of keeping me from it. I have learned more than I ever thought, given and received donations to great causes, and made some cyber-friends. I have never felt "outside" even though I'm not a contractor...you guys have put up with me pretty well and I appreciate that. Thanks Dan - best damn site on the net. Take Care, PJO

May she...

@ March 6, 2006 9:05 AM in Posting This For Mad Dog

live in your heart and soul forever. She's smiling kindly down upon you, Matt. Take Care, PJO

How about...

@ March 1, 2006 5:28 PM in Best system for domestic hot water

A reverse indirect for that oversized boiler? This would give you a buffer tank for longer cycles and tons of hot water. Also, if it is still oversized with the new burner, see if your (current) contractor can down-size the nozzle without going into condensing mode. Also, what about solar? Is it decent in your area? If you are going to do some re-contruction in your house, consider a GFX heat exchanger to pre-heat your domestic hot water. All of the above options are viable solutions...with the one excerption if you don't have much solar in your area. Hope this helps. Take Care, PJO

Here's a Link...

@ March 1, 2006 11:10 AM in Questions regarding energy efficiency tax credits (ME)

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#chart Take Care, PJO

Justin...

@ March 1, 2006 10:05 AM in Going Overseas Soon

I am humbled by your greatness as an American. From a former (Air Force) Prime Beef and Red Horse member that never had to be put in harm's way. May God Bless You and please return safely. Take Care, PJO

GrandPAH...

@ February 28, 2006 12:59 PM in Lily arrives! (GrandPAH)

Great stuff! Look - even Ronald McD likes it! :-) May you share the warmth of your heart with her for all the ages. Take care, PJO

Eugene, my condolences (NM)

@ February 8, 2006 12:28 PM in Professor Silberstein lost his Mom

Take care, PJO

Other Factor?

@ February 8, 2006 12:20 PM in Net Seasonal System Efficiency

Mike, I've been following your "tweaking" and this is great stuff... Did you say at one point that the average air temp. (t-stats used to run the old system I assume) in your house is reduced significantly now as compared to before (w/ old boiler)? What was the usual temps with the old system vs. new? I assume it's all relative to comfort, and because your are still comfortable (more comfortable probably) at lower air temps that is a big reason. The MRT is what really is going on I suppose, right? Thanks, PJO

Thanks guys...

@ February 3, 2006 11:29 AM in Buffer Tank - How To?

for the input. HR, I love that picture! :-) Sorry I wasn't around yesterday...down in A.C. for a little fun overnight. I will check out that valve - looks perfect for my application. My Ergo is probably the bigger reason (in addition to primary/secondary) why my return water is rarely below 140 or so...and never below 120 unless the whole system is just firing up. If it is just starting, it takes at least 20 minutes (more if there's a heat or DHW call) to get everything warm - that's a nice cycle! I suppose that's one of the "downs" about not having constant circ. but I manage my t-stat programs just fine to anticipate...I'll admit I'm a tinkerer. I still will de-couple the boiler though...and I'll try the zone valve trick. If it works well, I'll use it in the other system, too. Over 100 gallons in your system, Alex? Now that's some mass (volume)! Like you said Alex, it's all experimentation...and Hot Rod is a king in that endeavor! :-) Take Care, PJO

My thoughts...and a joke, too.

@ February 1, 2006 12:19 PM in Buffer Tank - How To?

Gents, Great thread! I did a system sort of like these, and will do another this summer...and am learning greatly from you guys. I installed primary/secondary w/an E23 Ergomax in the primary loop three years ago to slow down the cycling of my 100k output oil-fired boiler. The other side of the Ergo is feeding non-barrier radiant (poor decision on my part) for the first floor. I also have baseboard upstairs (three zones). I put the buffer right after the three high temp zones to help protect the boiler from condensing...I have a temp. gauge on the return and also see the temps throughout the system using two Azel Dual Digital Gauges. The boiler runs at 170F design, but this winter has stayed around 150/160 nearly all winter...and the return rarely falls below 135F. I reset the temps myself but that will change this year also... I have learned two things from that work; 1) I tried to keep it simple, but went "too simple" because while the boiler is protected 100% of the time, it also still cycles too often IMHO. If I had done something like Brad's design with using the temp. switch on the Ergo at 130F and then kicking in the buffer as a side tank (instead of being in the primary loop) it would have been better. 2) I also should have put the boiler as a secondary loop due to it simply either heating the system or cooling it...that will be done this spring, but I was going to use the switch on the Ergo to run a boiler circ. Based on these items, I propose the following for these improvements and also for work I will do on another system this summer. First my house improvements; 1) Re-do the piping to match Brad's (Siggy's) design except have the temp set at 130/135F (vs. 120) to protect the boiler instead of condensing yet still get long cycles. 2) Run the primary circ. constant near design temps. While I hear everyone talk about how great this is to do all season, I don't get the same feeling in my own system...and I have five total pumps (six zones) so it's a pretty big difference in electrical use. For my "other" system; Triplex with high DHW demand, which currently has a grossly oversized W/M CI 5 section dinosaur (oil-fired) that is about 30 years old...doesn't owe this place a dime. A 50 gallon gas HWH replaced the tankless coil, and was replaced with another unit about 8 years ago. Since I pay the fuel bill it's time to replace things. I propose a Burnham LE-1 with a Phase III TR-80 for DHW. This indirect is oversized for the simple reason of the boiler being sized for the heating load (75k) and not the DHW. I will use the existing gas heater for a "pre-heater" to the indirect, and will take advantage of the 24 gallon (I think) buffer in the Phase III. The Phase III will be in the primary loop with the three zones of baseboard (170, 165 and 155F design) in series as the temp. requirement falls. The boiler will be a secondary zone...this is similar to Siggy's "Signature System" from a few years ago. Here's my quandry; because there is also gas there, I can also go with a mod/condensing boiler (140M or W/M Ultra 150 comes to mind) with the same set-up. While these zones are high temp. I am considering an addition to the place that would probably be radiant, and also there's a possibility for snowmelt in the future. These two items tell me I should steer towards the gas unit, but I also am a firm believer in using oil instead for the reasons many have posted here over the years (better btu value/more choices for competition, etc). Regardless of the boiler choice, I am adding mass to the primary circuit while using a low-mass boiler...I'll just change the set-up depending on what type of boiler I have. Here's a goofy thought I have in my head; when I put the boiler as a secondary circuit, can I use a zone valve between the tees of the primary loop that is controlled off the setpoint switch? This would be a normally open valve that closes on the call for the boiler to send the entire primary flow through the boiler. The primary pump would obviously go from about 8 gpm to 6 or so due to the added piping, but that works perfect for the boiler. What say you, Wallies? TIA for any and all advice... Here's my joke - from an "engineer" and with respect to John Runhke I went to school AFTER 15 years in the field and I don't have a PE...except for "Practical Experience". AutoCAD Monkey A tourist walked into a pet shop and was looking at the animals on display. While he was there, another customer walked in and said to the shopkeeper, "I'll have an AutoCAD monkey please." The shopkeeper nodded, went over to a cage at the side of the shop and took out a monkey. He fitted a collar and leash, handed it to the customer, saying, "That'll be $5000." The customer paid and walked out with his monkey. Startled, the tourist went over to the shopkeeper and said, "That was a very expensive monkey. Most of them are only few hundred dollars. Why did that one cost so much?" The Shopkeeper answered, "Ah, that monkey can draw in AutoCAD - very fast, clear layouts, no mistakes, well worth the money." The tourist looked at a monkey in another cage. "That one's even more expensive! $10,000! What does it do? "Oh, that one's a Design monkey; it can design systems, layout projects, mark-up drawings, write specifications, some even calculate. All the really useful stuff," said the shopkeeper. The tourist looked around for a little longer and saw a third monkey in its own cage. The price tag around its neck read $50,000. He gasped to the shopkeeper, "That one costs more than all the others put together! What on earth does it do?" The shopkeeper replied, "Well, I haven't actually seen it do anything, but it says it's an Engineer." Take Care, PJO P.S. Dan, a belated Happy B-Day!!

To add to PAH's points...

@ January 18, 2006 10:40 AM in bio-contamination in radiant system

I have worked in the water/wastewater business for nearly 20 years. I currently am in the "pure water" (there's a discussion!) area of pharmaceuticals. Most municipal systems may run the Cl2 residual up to about 2.0 ppm...but that is at the feed source. By the time it hits the house, it is usually much less...in the buildings of this site, we are VERY often finding no residual at all in the city water feeding our RO systems. This has come about over the years with the reduction of Cl2 levels to the customer. With this in mind, it adds more to Dave's argument. Also, it sometimes takes much less levels than qouted above for carcinogens to form. We have them in some of our systems after we chlorinate at 1.0 to 2.0 ppm. One of the factors in this is the presence of vegetative-based compounds, and believe me when I tell you they are in most municipal systems. Ask me how I know this stuff. Our company spends an incredible amount of $$$ testing ALL of our water systems (city/DI/RO/USP Grade, etc). Too bad I can't sneak one of these samples in... :-) Bottom Line: 1) Would you drink water after you put a glass of it on top of the range at low heat (or even none) for a week? How about a day? We don't leave food out for a week and then eat it, do we? I sure wouldn't... 2) For the cost of a heat exchanger/pump, some piping and controls, why would anyone NOT separate the two systems? Code or no code, it just common sense IMHO. Dave, I know you are passionate about this issue...and like CO it doesn't get enough attention because many people get sick and do not see the reason. My $0.02 Take Care, PJO

God speed...

@ January 13, 2006 4:19 PM in Glenn Stanton Update

and a complete recovery. Take Care, PJO

Thoughts and Prayers...

@ January 13, 2006 3:07 PM in A fellow Wallie needs us

MD, Hang in there...and may God Bless your Mom. PJO

That kid...

@ January 5, 2006 2:30 PM in Joe PA and Penn State

is from the high school next to ours - Neshaminy. Both Barr brothers came from there also (Chris and Matt) and not only kicked for JoePa but had good NFL careers. My friend's neighbor's daughter dates him...and because they "broke up" again (two different colleges) she didn't watch the game! Teenagers! Hey Cosmo - the Pats haven't won three straight...yet! :-) PJO

How about...

@ January 5, 2006 2:12 PM in Hybrid home heating system, looking for new boiler

something like a Burnham LEDV (direct vent) with an Ergomax or Triangle Tube "tank in tank" for the DHW? This would give you the buffer tank you will obviously need with those small zones. The Ergo would have at least 26 gallons of boiler water, and the TT (also sold as Weil-McClain Ultra/Gold) would have about 6-12 gallons depending on size. Install primary/secondary with the Ergo/TT as the "heart" of the system in the primary loop, and the LE as a secondary loop (along with all the zones of heat). The temp switch on the Ergo could control the circ for the LE if you want to have control on the boiler return, but then you would have it one the "end" of the primary loop and it would hold less BTU's. This piping arrangement would prevent the boiler from seeing any flow until the larger volume of water needs it. There was a "Signature System" that Siggy wrote about a few years ago, and I re-did my own system similar to it two years ago. Can't find the thread though :-( I would keep the electric HWH as a pre-heater of sorts for the Ergo/TT, and it would be a domestic back-up in a pinch if you forgot to check the tank level. You could put it on the "far" side of the indirect for extra tankage in case you have a monster tub or one of those new-fangled 20 gpm showers, but whatever you do don't pinch the piping down anywhere. Ask me how I know! :-) I believe you can get a 0.60 gph nozzle, and at 87% AFUE (for what it's worth) that's not bad. The Ergo will still do you justice with the lowered boiler - especially with the water going up 10 or 15 degrees through the (existing electric) preheater. I am not a contractor by the way... Hope this helps. Take care, PJO

Thanks Guys...

@ January 5, 2006 11:17 AM in Army - Navy Story

Yes, it's great to see there are still caring people in the world with deep pockets and even deeper commitments. No matter what your opinion on our use of the military, I believe you must - at a very minimum - take care of anyone that is wounded while wearing the uniform...and by that I mean for the rest of their life, and not simply a bed in the local VA hospital. I have done some work in one of those, and wanted to cry at the environment...although the soldiers and vets were almost always stand-up gentlemen. This was but one glorius day amongst what is probably a lot of trying ones for the brave soldiers who put themselves in harm's way and paid the price. Too bad they don't get more of these... Take Care, PJO

Here! Here!

@ January 4, 2006 3:43 PM in Joe PA and Penn State

Mad Dog, It would have been such a shame if they lost...they dominated the game but gave up those two huge plays. Remember that they lost their running back early and then their stud linebacker in the fourth (of seven!) quarter. Did you see how fired up JoePa was? Wow...and 79 years old! I hope I have that kind of energy when I'm 59! God bless them indeed...and some people argued against him being coach of the year. Take Care, PJO