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Wayne Heid

Wayne Heid

Joined on April 6, 2005

Last Post on April 20, 2014

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Confused by conversion

@ April 20, 2014 4:38 PM in CPVC in hydronic heating system

Mark,

Now I'm confused. In attempting to compare the oxygen permeability rates of CPVC to barrier PEX, I look at the examples from our two posts and I don't see how you come to your conclusion that CPVC allows significantly more oxygen into a system than barrier PEX. Actually, I don't see how any conclusion can be drawn (unless my math is rustier than I thought).

The specs are apples to oranges. The DIN 4726 spec refers to grams / cu meter / day while the Charlotte CPVC specs refer to cubic centimeters / milliliter / square meter / day. Grams is a measure of mass and cubic centimeters is a measure of volume and not comparable. The Charlotte spec also refers to square meters vs. the DIN 4726 reference to cubic meters.

I want to be able to definitively agree with you but the data we're looking at here doesn't appear to support the conclusion we'd like to make. Am I missing something?

And thanks for the link. It was interesting reading.

Wayne

CPVC and oxygen barrier

@ April 19, 2014 11:08 AM in CPVC in hydronic heating system

Mark,

While I totally agree that CPVC is inappropriate for hydronic piping, it is an approved material for hydronic systems in the New York / ICC mechanical code. Charlotte Pipe has this to say about oxygen diffusion in their Plastics Technical Manual:

CPVC CTS FlowGuard Gold does not typically require an
oxygen barrier. In accordance with ASTM D 2846, CPVC
CTS is manufactured as a solid-wall piping system and is
not manufactured in a cross-linked or co-extruded process
like other materials that are prone to oxygen permeation.
Unlike CPVC, some cross-linked systems used in applications
such as hydronic heating require a layer of aluminum to be
present to stop oxygen diffusion through the polymer matrix.
With regard to oxygen permeability of a CPVC system, the
following data should be considered:
1) The oxygen transmission rate in CPVC at 73°F (23°C) is
approximately 7.2 cc/(m2/day).
2) The oxygen permeation coefficient in at 73°F (23°C) is
approximately 180 cc/mil/(m2/day/atm).
3) The oxygen diffusion coefficient in CPVC is approximately
6.25e/9 cm2/sec.

They go on to say that only schedule 80 should be used on hydronic systems.

As a practical matter, a CPVC piping system would require much more pipe support than most are willing to provide. They require special male adapter fittings with brass threads. Flow rates are reduced because of the reduced internal diameter. And, to the trained eye, it just looks amateurish (if that's a word).

Wayne

Fill and purge

@ April 19, 2014 10:17 AM in Need help with valve on hot water base board system

You'll want to fill the entire system first, then isolate all but one zone and purge it independently of the other zones. The idea is to push the air through the entire zone circuit and out the purge valve. To do this you'd need to close a valve between the purge point and the header or boiler. That way the purge water has no choice but to flow through the circuit you're trying to flush - and nothing else. Sometimes it helps to imagine the flow of water through the piping - almost like following a maze.

Then isolate the purged circuit and move on to the next circuit and purge it. Until you've done them all. Then open all the isolation valves and start the circulators and check for flow in all circuits. Let it run for a while to work out the small bubbles you couldn't get with the purge.

Oh, and don't do this with a hot boiler. Otherwise you risk damaging the boiler.

Good luck.

Wayne

Maybe

@ April 18, 2014 4:58 PM in Need help with valve on hot water base board system

That might work if every flow check held perfectly but I wouldn't count on it. I'd just drain the system, change the pump (maybe add isolation valves while you're at it?), refill and purge. You're going to need to fill and purge any way you do it.

Wayne

Flow check

@ April 18, 2014 4:37 PM in Need help with valve on hot water base board system

That's a flow check. It's nothing more than a weighted plug that will prevent reverse flow or ghost flow. The thumb screw is there to lift the weight for purging or gravity flow. I doubt it will help you much as an isolation valve for the circ.

Wayne

Thanks Heather

@ March 30, 2014 5:11 PM in Help! Left water on filling boiler and now...

Thanks for your kind words Heather. I'm very happy to have you both as new clients and friends.

Wayne

The verdict is in.

@ March 29, 2014 5:40 PM in Help! Left water on filling boiler and now...

Thanks to everyone for helping Heather get through her initial problems. I made the repairs to her system and she asked me to post a follow-up to let you know what transpired.

It appeared that the over-pressurization caused a failure of her Pressuretrol. And to compund matters, her boiler pressure gauge was also damaged at some point. I'm not sure if that was related to this incident, but it reads 8PSI when the boiler has no pressure on it. It's an 9 year old Dunkirk PVSB-5D with the 0-30 PSI gauge mounted into a top tapping.

Either way, we changed the pressuretrol, lowered her pressure to 2PSI with a 1 PSI cut-in, and added a low pressure gauge (0-5 PSI). We decided to forgo replacing the 0-30 PSI gauge as it now has little real value to her (or me).

Her end-of-main vents were also undersized (Dole #4's), one was leaking and the other was questionable, so we replaced them w/ Gorton #2's.

Time to vent the long main has dropped from over 13 minutes down to 71 seconds.

Next up ... replacing some failed radiator vents, balancing the system and adding some near-boiler insulation. The thermostat also needs replacing (a Hunter 44100) as it has no cycle/hr adjustment.

Wayne

Brasscraft CS40 & CS41

@ August 21, 2013 5:03 PM in Fixture angle stop valve best strategy for copper?

Brasscraft makes a stop with a 5" extension and bell escutcheon for sweating onto a 1/2" copper stubout. Rough it in with about a 6" stubout w/ cap. On finish just cut off the cap and slide the stop with extension over the copper to within an inch of the wall. Solder the extension and slide the bell escutcheon up to the wall. Very clean and neat. No exposed copper. The CS40 is an angle stop and the CS41 is straight.

HP - I like the way you think!

@ May 22, 2013 10:32 AM in I have noticed more and more shotty work

The box is an intriguing way to explain to others what is instinctive to you.

I like to explain that all piping traveling in the same direction of joists should be up in the joist space. Pipe traveling against the joist should be attached to the underside.

Horizontal piping is supported every 3rd joist or 4', regardless of pipe size. This keeps things uniform looking.

No strap iron or mechanic's wire. Always use swivel hangers and threaded rod for anything over 3/4". Hangers and rod are inexpensive. We get lots of compliments on how "commercial" or "heavy duty" our residential installs look.

Years ago we found the Caddy # 6TIO offset bracket for hanging 3/8" rod from overhead joists and have used them ever since.

Thanks for starting this thread.

Wayne

Yes, I checked the sediment trap.

@ October 14, 2012 2:48 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

And no teflon tape used here. I'll keep you informed of progress. Haven't been able to access the site to try some of these suggestions as the owner is out of town for long stretches at a time. So if I don't post progress it's not because I don't value all of your wisdom. I'm just limited to access to the equipment. Thanks everyone!

The boiler was purchased and supplied

@ October 14, 2012 2:42 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

by the owner before I was involved. I would have suggested spark ignition but standing pilot is still allowed here.

I've involved the supply house.

@ October 14, 2012 2:39 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

They've involved Smith and Smith supplied the replacement valve. I've also called WR support as well. Everyone seems to be stumped.

I see why you would think the second valve is also bad. I'm considering a switch to a Honeywell valve.

When the 24V terminals are removed

@ October 9, 2012 9:31 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

from the gas valve it does not close. It will close gradually after about 30 seconds and even then it sometimes leaks by just a little for another minute or so with a tiny flame at the orifice closest to the gas valve.

Yes, I replaced the gas valve with the same model.

Yes, the valve stays open when the switch is shut off but as I mentioned above it will stay open for 30 seconds or so whether or not the 24V terminals are connected at the gas valve. I've also measured the voltage at the TH & TR terminals and it drops to 0 when the switch is shut off.

Yes, that's exactly what I have.

@ October 8, 2012 10:22 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

The secondary or backup pressuretrol is wired to what you refer to as the junction block in the thermocouple circuit. The 24V connections are connected to the TH & TR terminals. The TH/TR terminal is not used. The boiler is for process heating in a small batch distillery and the call for heat is initiated by a manual switch instead of a thermostat.

The wiring is all exposed

@ October 7, 2012 6:01 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

so trying new ECO wires to the Pressuretrol should be no problem. I was also going to eliminate the Pressuretrol altogether (temporarily) by installing a jumper on the ECO terminals. I can't see where that would help with a delayed closing but at least it would eliminate the ECO or Pressuretrol as a contributing factor.

Sure, I can do that.

@ October 7, 2012 5:57 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

What would you expect for results when connected this way? Are you thinking it would prove or disprove a Pressuretrol problem?

Delayed closing of gas valve

@ October 7, 2012 4:50 PM in Delayed closing of gas valve

I recently installed a Smith GB-250-9 steam boiler that works fine until the call for heat is removed. At that point the damper closes but the gas valve remains open for another 30 seconds or so. When it does finally close, it closes slowly. Sometimes trickling a small amount of gas for another minute or so that slowly burns at the closest orifice on the manifold. I've verified that no voltage is present at the gas valve. I've even removed the power terminals and the valve remains open.

This boiler has a White-Rodgers 36C53-418 gas valve. Inlet pressure is measured at 6.75” WC (static) and drops to 5.25” WC under flow. Manifold pressure is 3.5”. It also has a Honeywell Pressuretrol as a secondary hi limit connected to the ECO terminals on the gas valve. When one of the ECO terminal connections is removed from the gas valve, it closes immediately.

So far I've changed the gas valve and the problem persists. WR factory support says the pressures are within spec and suspects the Pressuretrol connected to the ECO is somehow causing the problem. I haven't had an opportunity to check that theory but I'm doubtful it's related.

Anyone else have a similar experience or care to weigh in? I'm running out of ideas.

Wayne

Alabama Attorney General Consumer Protection

@ March 26, 2012 7:52 AM in Concerned Customer

For starters, I'd contact the Alabama Attorney Gereral's office. They have a consumer hot line and you can file a complaint on-line.

http://www.ago.state.al.us/Page-Consumer-Protection

It would probably be very helpful to put together an detailed written timeline of relative dates, paperwork signed and checks written.

If all else fails, I'm sure the local TV news would be all over this.

Good luck and thank you for your service.

Wayne

Consider radiant ceilings

@ March 12, 2012 9:14 AM in Old House Advice: Remove Radiators, Get AC?

Since you'd like to remove the radiators but keep the hot water heat you may want to consider radiant ceilings. It's the perfect application for a retrofit like yours. You would lose about 2" of ceiling height but gain all the benefits of radiant heat and reclaim the floor space taken up by your cast iron radiators.

I agree with Steamhead that a small duct, high velocity AC system like Unico or SpacePak is the best solution for cooling.

Wayne

Follow up

@ November 28, 2011 10:11 PM in Dunkirk Q95M-200 Ignition Problem

Just wanted to follow up with a post to let everyone know that the new burner and updated control looks like it did the trick. I installed it today and the ignition is smooth and consistent.

Thanks to everyone for all the great help. ECR was also very responsive.  Once again Heating Help to the rescue!

Wayne

ECR support

@ November 14, 2011 2:41 PM in Dunkirk Q95M-200 Ignition Problem

Bob,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I just spoke with Steve Snyder at ECR. He was very helpful and is sending me the kit with the parts you suggested. I'll post the results after the new kit gets here.

Wayne

Rev B

@ November 14, 2011 8:39 AM in Dunkirk Q95M-200 Ignition Problem

Bob,

The ignition module says "Rev B".

Are you saying there's not only a Rev C ignition module but a burner upgrade too?

Wayne
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