Heating Help

May I suggest

@ June 18, 2013 12:17 PM in Radiant

Some excellent reading material offered on this site. Pumping away, is one

You will need to pipe boiler primary secondary, and install a mixing device for the radiant emitters. Also a delta p circ or a differential bypass valve for the zone valves.

To answer your question plumbkieth

@ June 18, 2013 5:06 AM in Radiant heat

It's not a huge deal either way, but don't use the area under your cabinets as output to off set heat loss in your calculations.

Stay away from cabinets with baskets to store potatoes onions etc, and bread storage bin cabinets.

If sink abuts an outside wall throw a little under that cabinet if it does not disrupt your layout.

IF your floor area falls short of the heat loss consider radiant counter tops especially if they are high mass.

In other words keep the tube where it directly has an effect on output to the room.

Okay

@ June 17, 2013 7:03 PM in Delta t ...... The obsession

I feel like Huckleberry in Police Academy one, and I missed out on gun play.


Chris has the boiler end circ nailed down. That delta is quite controllable in what I call the primary, or boiler loop.

I was referring to convectors in my statement initially.

There are many deltas in a whole envelope system.

Inside to outside temp delta
Convector to room temp delta.
SWT to pipe wall delta.
Pipe wall to plate, or pipe wall to concrete, what ever radiant detail medium used delta.
The radiant loop delta.
The supply/Return piping to the radiant loop delta.
And finally the boiler loop delta.

In any one of these delta scenarios the narrower the delta the less heating, or cooling transfer "ill throw in cooling because Chris is dabbling in that arena"

Jean pick one delta floors 10 just for comfort, and less stripping, ceilings 15, baseboard 20 boiler 30 the narrower the band the more fluid you have to move and pumping costs go up, but it does not mean that what you end up with in real world.


My house has ceiling radiant, and floors. Floor deltas are a solid 10' but there is a reason, and that's because I have radiant ceiling in those rooms also.

Radiant ceiling loops can be anywhere from 5-15, depending on loop location. Example being a loop that is toward an exterior wall verse a loop that is central to the room, verses a loop again that has radiant floors also.

Now my supply return to the radiant ceilings is always a rock solid 15 no matter the outside temp once heating season is rolling. Exception to this is shoulder season spring, and fall when the house just needs the occasional bump.

So Jean your emitter is in place its worked for a long time. you have to tweak your boiler end like Carl said bump the reset higher it can't hurt.

Optimal delta

@ June 17, 2013 12:04 AM in Delta t ...... The obsession

Is the one that gives the most output with the least flow, and lowest water temp providing the highest comfort. Lots of combinations. This will all depend on emitter type, and how it's used. Meaning say a radiant slab in a home verses a warehouse verses a snowmelt system.

In the end its about pump energy saved as SWEI points out.

What I fear, and see in the future is a delta t or p pump being used to correct a design deficiency verses being designed into a new system properly.

A first aid kit for the tool box. For people who think they know what they are doing, but really only know enough to get them in trouble. Only to find out when it's to late.

You can control your deltas, and design them to be efficient in a system through proper pipe sizing which lends itself to smaller circs. The ECM circ then becomes a bonus in efficiency of the system, and not a tool to correct a design deficiency.

Jean

@ June 16, 2013 11:45 PM in Delta t ...... The obsession

I think you have to make the call.

If your willing to eat the cost of two 007 in working order resell on ebay and the cost of the new ECM circs. Then by all means give it a go this really seems to bother you.


If not let it be, the system works does it not? What you gain in efficiency will be very little in my opinion. Will it be technically more efficient yes. Will it be huge no.

You all ready have an oversized boiler so that's a strike which I only know from previous posts you have made.

Delta t ...... The obsession

@ June 16, 2013 3:10 PM in Delta t ...... The obsession

Can everyone at least agree that delta t is a design constant? 10, 20, 30, any number in between .

Can everyone also agree that the very same constant used to design a heating system, or emitter becomes variable upon commissioning of said product depending on operating parameters? Say cold start, no setback , setback etc. to say a few.

So,what's all the new obsession of trying to control it, and keep it a constant no matter what?

People are acting as though this is a huge mile stone, and seemingly hydronics has been done wrong for 100 years.

Interesting gennady

@ June 16, 2013 2:44 PM in How the Europeans do it?

So instead of offering training to unqualified contractors, and increased marketing strategy to lure interest in the product. They just throw in the towel on the U.S. market all together.  Sounds like they are doing well, and do not need our business.

Agreed

@ June 16, 2013 11:56 AM in in slab radiant

Carl

This whole delta t thing is running away.12 years here, and never seen it so picked apart ridiculous .

Yes

@ June 14, 2013 10:25 PM in How the Europeans do it?

Robert twas early.

Minds

@ June 14, 2013 5:43 AM in How the Europeans do it?

Tend to be analytical, and linear. I think an Artisan is in the genetic code, and more of an analytical mind.

Where we have gone into a tail spin in the school system is recognizing the talents of an artisan, and have taken away the path for them to grow. Society needs both types of minds to survive long term if it wants to grow. We as a country are seriously limiting ourselves long term.

Striaght leg or Bell Bottoms

@ June 9, 2013 9:03 PM in Buy American

Dont forget the fringe after wearing them in was cool then to.

Only got

@ June 9, 2013 2:04 PM in Buy American

2 pair Rob. Point is the sears brand were still 10 times better than the Levi's today. I out grew them before they were wore out. Today bean counters think about how many more pairs they can make by lightening the thread weight a little each year to the point where people will still buy them, and keep buying them, and charge more. If I remember I think Levi's in my day were 12.99 a pair. Today they are 40-45' and don't last as long.

Levi's

@ June 9, 2013 9:35 AM in Buy American

Anyone Remember when Levi's were stiff like a board, and you had to wash them just to wear them.

Bill

@ June 9, 2013 9:33 AM in Buy American

See my post "in the end". How long do you think they will take buying trillions in worthless debt before the want tangible items to cover it? Say land.

A foreign conglomerate owns part of the Indiana toll road system.

Bovide

@ June 6, 2013 5:26 AM in Buy American

Think bean counters. Every boiler they make if a few dollars can be saved, and the boiler sold for the same price as all American parts is money in the pocket. They count on the people who don't care if every part is made in America, or the fact that it just goes unnoticed which both obviously are unlikely. That's your answer, and good luck in swaying a bean counter.

In the end

@ June 6, 2013 5:21 AM in Buy American

America won't be taken over by a war. It will be bought, and owned by countries across both ponds....mostly the left one. Draining the consumers wallets with subpar products.

Choices

@ June 6, 2013 5:09 AM in munchkin contender heat exchanger problems and thoughts.

Frankly I would choose a boiler with a SS HX, and a fire tube Designed HX. Can't really say much about the composite design. The proof would be in what you have witnessed, taken with if it was installed correctly is the difference.

And Rob

@ June 5, 2013 7:22 PM in Icynene insulation!!!

What we consider right today in 40 years or less will be wrong.

I see a lot of old houses 100 plus years old still standing . If there was any moisture issues causing wood to rot it was from lack of maintaining the property, or a drainage problem.

My home is 60 years old no mold no rot, and it does not have a high tech wall assembly.

I see homes with not ten years on them with moisture related issues.

Sometimes we think we solve problems only to create other problems, and then come up with solutions to solve the secondary problems created, and think we have really achieved something.

We are not wasting energy by using HRV , or an ERV to control how we ventilate a tight home? Not that an HRV is a huge energy consumer, but what about the manufacturing process to make them? Again another invention to solve an issue created by trying to solve another issue, and that's reduce a homes energy consumption.

I do,agree fiberglass is a poor insulator, but look at all of it out there in homes, and still being put in homes.

Sure we have learned a lot over the years, and there are lots of ways to do envelopes high tech low energy, but they also cost a lot of money up front to achieve. ROI is just not there unless its a dweller for a long time.

Lets take windows for instance I have double hung single pane with well fitting storms. They all work fine and actually as good as new. To replace them with a triple glazed argon filled unit would cost 36000.00 with a top of the line window manufacturer that's me installing them. I can tell you that they won't perform that good to get a ROI in an except able time frame. Sure it saves me switching storms for screens every year.

Wall detail

@ June 4, 2013 7:20 PM in Icynene insulation!!!

The 2x4's are nailed flat against the 2x6 studs.

Your layout would be floor level then 2', 4', 6',, and 8'. Unless its a taller wall then keep going.

This works out well for drywall. If your worried 2' is to much for drywall then either go 16" centers with the 2x4's , or go with 5/8" drywall. Never seemed to be a problem with spanning 2'.

Like steam whisperer said it makes electrical a breeze to run, and some plumbing.


Foil backed drywall was another option, as a vapor barrier back then. I opted for visquine.

Home energy magazine

@ June 4, 2013 5:10 AM in Degree Day comparison info?

Range of Energy Use


Realtive Frequency
Under 5.0 BTUs/HDD/Sq.Ft.
12.2 percent


Between 5.0 and 10.0 BTUs/HDD/Sq.Ft.
39.4 percent


Between 10.0 and 15.0 BTUs/HDD/Sq.Ft.
23.9 percent



Between 15.0 and 25.0 BTUs/HDD/Sq.Ft.
14.7 percent


Over 25.0 BTUs/HDD/Sq.Ft.
9.8 percent

Looks good

@ June 4, 2013 5:05 AM in Time to choose a boiler

From what I can see Grandview.

I can't really read the columns with circuit lengths, but swear I see 340' as one of them.

Water temps 110* is that correct?

Swei

@ June 3, 2013 7:44 PM in Degree Day comparison info?

So what's your range of good, bad, and a submarine with screen doors in terms of btus per DD per sf.