Joined on October 13, 2004
Last Post on August 20, 2014
@ July 13, 2014 12:32 PM in Getting into mod/con businessI usually do embrace drifting off topic in a debate. If the poster is patient, and reads the posts something can be taken away from the discussion....usually.
In this particular case it should bring to light there is no simple direct answer to his question. It's a case by case, wants, needs, goals, budgets for both installer, and end user.
It's like debating which mod/con, or conventional boiler is better. Usually in the end it's about what is available in the area, parts, knowing the product line, features offered, and features really needed.
Savings from a new install is always subjective especially if calculated by end user. So long as the customer is happy with those numbers is what really counts.
In the end choosing not to offer a product line limits his business opportunities.
@ July 13, 2014 12:33 AM in Getting into mod/con businessWhat to take from it was its intent.
1.Oversized emitters a plus.
2. Mod/cons condense with high temp emitters IF number one applies.
3.Mod/cons are more efficient than conventional equipment.
What you chose to take from it is your intent. For you that is cost of ownership vs efficiency.
@ July 10, 2014 6:10 PM in Getting into mod/con businessIt is less than professional, and people are going to lurk, and see that someone is doing it so that makes it okay especially if a professional condones it. Its one thing to experiment when you know what you are doing, and another when you do not know what your doing. I'm not insinuating you.
Another in my opinion is you want to debate cost of ownership from conventional to mod/con without the full understanding of the technology. Disregarding everything that comes in the box of one verse the other. That's worth loads to the installer, and the consumer in the end. Your using a water heater a step below conventional even, and also purchasing loads of extra parts to make it do what you want when in fact the seemingly more expensive option comes with all the parts all ready assembled into a neat plug and play package. You get what you pay for. The water heater will never approach the efficiency of a conventional boiler. Now you could do what Rich does, and use the HTP product Pioneer which has the technology built into the over all purchase.
@ July 9, 2014 9:52 PM in Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective ProductBut who pays for the plumber/fitter everytime there is a thunderstorm, and a whole subdivision of houses impregnated with the csst pipe gets locked out. I know its deffinetly better than loss of property or life though. But how many out of pocket lock outs is going to make a homeowner disconnect the saftey feature unaware of the risk, or just willing to take the risk? Or would this be a supplier feature with a tampering is unlawful, and imposes fine or imprisonment tag.
@ July 9, 2014 8:32 PM in Getting into mod/con businessWhy would you not keep the boiler temp at 180 mix down for the emitters if 100 degrees is all you need BC? That would give a 40 delta for the indirect. I dont see the cost of maintaining a water heater tank temp at 140-150 all the time, and having to lose efficiency through an HX so its oversized to do the job.
@ July 9, 2014 8:24 PM in Getting into mod/con businessI dont think anyone here would disagree with that direct statement. It does cost money to be green on all fronts,except for my schwinn world sport 10 speed from high school I still have, and do ride for leisure;-) But sooner or later it should, and will be a requirement, and this will all be a mute point in cost of ownership no?
@ July 9, 2014 3:43 PM in Getting into mod/con businessSo I see trying to make a system as efficient as possible when the opportunity presents itself means nothing to you. That's fine to each their own.
As far as the auto industry your right but if the boat is sinking you have to patch the holes before you start to bail little ones count to, but your farther ahead to start with the big ones so talk to government on that.
But if everyone has the what's in it for me attitude Dino juice will be gone for the future generations.
@ July 9, 2014 6:21 AM in Getting into mod/con businessThe focus should be on which equipment will use the least amount of energy coming out of the meter. That makes the efficiency difference from high to mid a mute point, and maintenance costs.
In Italy a mandatory yearly boiler inspection is 150 euro so they have that added in.
There will and should come a day when there won't be a choice mid or high efficiency.
@ July 9, 2014 5:57 AM in Getting into mod/con businessWhen your doing it any which way the only proof is the installed equipment compared to the old that was there.
The installer has the responsibility to steer the prospective customer in the right direction of equipment selection. Understanding the present installed system will give that installer a good idea of what the best choice will be for equipment, and what may be saved.
In their past experience of what was achieved With marrying certain boilers with given emitters is where claimed savings can be made.
So,as far as trying to decide whether a conventional boiler, or a mod/con fits is a little of what the consumer wants, and what the installer feels will be the best choice. Either way there will be savings usually.
As far as savings of 50% in new conventional verses new mod/con I don't believe anyone would make such a claim. In the end all the consumer will know is what they are saving from existing to new what ever was existing.
I still think that modulation and condensing still out weighs fixed output burners. This is where the afue fails for good comparison. It's just converting % of fuel converted to usable energy not how that energy is efficiently used.
@ July 8, 2014 11:43 PM in Getting into mod/con businessFiguring out your beef?
Is it you dont believe boilers achieve stated performance?
You think mod/cons are a waste of money?
Most everyone is pretty comfortable with their understanding of how the savings can be reeped by any type of installed new boiler. So where are you going with all this exactly?
@ July 8, 2014 10:53 PM in Getting into mod/con businessAs Kurt said earlier the true formula for an equal comparison to any home any systems fuel usage, and performance.
BTUS per HDD per SF. Very easy to calculate, and a very accurate indicator of how a total system including the envelope is performing.
You can calc it daily, hourly, monthly, yearly. before an install, and after an install.
you can compare your usage to your neighbors usage even though their set point is 72*, and yours is 65*.. It does not care if its 20* or -20*. It does not care if they have a forced air furnace, and you have whatever...In my opinion it is really the only true total system perfrmance bench mark worthy of any salt.
If you use it before, and after a heating system overhaul its going to give you the most accurate savings percentage.
Edit: No assumptions needed. Just the facts.
@ July 8, 2014 7:52 PM in Getting into mod/con businessI was alluding to was not from boiler manufacturers. It was some previous posts. A well designed envelope with tight radiant tube spacing, and lower room set point can achieve those efficiencies....easily.
Most on the wall do more than change a boiler out. They also try to hone the total system with in budget restraints, and existing infrastructure. Remember most of the time the boiler was way oversized. If the installer is lucky, and the owner upgraded the envelope then the radiation will be oversized IF sized correctly for the old envelope. Those two things are huge compliments to savings of a correctly installed, and sized boiler. throw in modulation, lower water temps ODR. smart circ technology it gets better.
Sorry BC I just can not agree with you.
@ July 8, 2014 6:21 AM in Getting into mod/con businessIn my last post I meant to type "seasonal SYSTEM efficiency". Because in the end with any boiler it is just one component of the whole hydronics system. But most mod/cons have built in components that enhance the total system.
Thats why AFUE needs to be dropped from this debate as Chris stated. The systen plays a big tole in how much actual savings will be achieved by any boiler.
@ July 7, 2014 9:29 PM in Getting into mod/con businessI wonder how Viessmann can tote 108% efficiency with their Mod/Cons with return water temps below 90ish Hmmm.
You really have to think about the modulation, smart boiler/system pumping, system, and boiler loop deltas, RWT, Radiation being used. Those are all huge components of over all efficiencies. I say OVER ALL efficiency because AFUE just does not apply its a half a$$ benchmark that people try to apply to everything in the boiler line up. Remember the goal is to make the SYSTEM more efficient not just the boiler. Talk seasonal efficiencies.
Im just rying to get through the new math.
@ July 6, 2014 12:06 PM in Cleaning radiant tubingIt would seem to me with out actually knowing how much debris is in the loops you would want to start out with low pressure slowly increasing once good flow is established to avoid a blockage in the tubing from a right off the start high pressure flush. Never had to do one so just asking.
@ July 5, 2014 11:48 AM in I can not get my head around the over sizing of boilersYour asking what the bigger boiler would do with the same amount of radiation.
The bigger boiler would get up to setpoint in both room, and water supply temperature faster only in that the cycle is using more btus from the oversized boiler burner to heat the water more rapidly. Like putting a pan of water on the small burner of a stove, or the large burner which one will heat the same size pan, and water content faster? If it takes say 15 minutes to bring supply water to 180, and satisfy the thermostat with right size boiler it may only take 12 minutes with a boiler to large. The larger burner is making the supply water seek equilibrium faster.
This can be a good thing, and a bad thing. Good in that it is quickly bringing the supply water, and room radiation up to temp to satisfying the thermostat. Bad in that it's burning more fuel to do the same work as the right size boiler, and it's doing the work so quickly that it never runs long enough to get a good efficient burn cycle before shutting down.
Adding more radiation to solve the problem would be counter productive IF the present radiation is of proper size. All you would be doing is bringing the room to its set point faster, and the boiler would still short cycle.
What over radiating Is good for is allowing one to use lower AWT to heat the space. With a conventional boiler you can only go so low with out proper boiler protection. With a modulating condensing boiler it's the cats meow to get that return water temp low to condense.
This is all thermal equilibrium as Hot Rod said. Mother Nature is always trying to achieve equilibrium.
@ June 29, 2014 10:49 AM in Poor radiant floor hydronic installationhow is this done with different domestic, and radiant system psi requirements? or is the radiant domestic pressure?
@ June 28, 2014 11:04 PM in Poor radiant floor hydronic installationin zero gravity.
@ June 19, 2014 8:45 PM in Some days I get a little burnt outIm working on a bridge right now that should have been a total reconstruction. Its getting the duct tape band aid repair. But no they dump 25 million on an ornate arch bridge 2 miles away that gets 80% less traffic. That bridge needed a total recon also, but not of an ornate style.
The sad part is they could have done both for 12 million, and spent the other 13 million on other things. Its rampid.
So the polish proverb goes.