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Joined on October 13, 2004

Last Post on July 27, 2014

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In the end

@ July 9, 2014 6:21 AM in Getting into mod/con business

The focus should be on which equipment will use the least amount of energy coming out of the meter. That makes the efficiency difference from high to mid a mute point, and maintenance costs.

In Italy a mandatory yearly boiler inspection is 150 euro so they have that added in.

There will and should come a day when there won't be a choice mid or high efficiency.

All assumptions

@ July 9, 2014 5:57 AM in Getting into mod/con business

When your doing it any which way the only proof is the installed equipment compared to the old that was there.

The installer has the responsibility to steer the prospective customer in the right direction of equipment selection. Understanding the present installed system will give that installer a good idea of what the best choice will be for equipment, and what may be saved.

In their past experience of what was achieved With marrying certain boilers with given emitters is where claimed savings can be made.

So,as far as trying to decide whether a conventional boiler, or a mod/con fits is a little of what the consumer wants, and what the installer feels will be the best choice. Either way there will be savings usually.

As far as savings of 50% in new conventional verses new mod/con I don't believe anyone would make such a claim. In the end all the consumer will know is what they are saving from existing to new what ever was existing.

I still think that modulation and condensing still out weighs fixed output burners. This is where the afue fails for good comparison. It's just converting % of fuel converted to usable energy not how that energy is efficiently used.

Having a hard time

@ July 8, 2014 11:43 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Figuring out your beef?

Is it you dont believe boilers achieve stated performance?

You think mod/cons are a waste of money?

Most everyone is pretty comfortable with their understanding of how the savings can be reeped by any type of installed new boiler. So where are you going with all this exactly?


@ July 8, 2014 10:53 PM in Getting into mod/con business

As Kurt said earlier the true formula for an equal comparison to any home any systems fuel usage, and performance.

BTUS per HDD per SF. Very easy to calculate, and a very accurate indicator of how a total system including the envelope is performing.

You can calc it daily, hourly, monthly, yearly. before an install, and after an install.

you can compare your usage to your neighbors usage even though their set point is 72*, and yours is 65*.. It does not care if its 20* or -20*. It does not care if they have a forced air furnace, and you have whatever...In my opinion it is really the only true total system perfrmance bench mark worthy of any salt.

If you use it before, and after a heating system overhaul its going to give you the most accurate savings percentage.

Edit: No assumptions needed. Just the facts.

The new math

@ July 8, 2014 7:52 PM in Getting into mod/con business

I was alluding to was not from boiler manufacturers. It was some previous posts. A well designed envelope with tight radiant tube spacing, and lower room set point can achieve those efficiencies....easily.

Most on the wall do more than change a boiler out. They also try to hone the total system with in budget restraints, and existing infrastructure. Remember most of the time the boiler was way oversized. If the installer is lucky, and the owner upgraded the envelope then the radiation will be oversized IF sized correctly for the old envelope. Those two things are huge compliments to savings of a correctly installed, and sized boiler. throw in modulation, lower water temps ODR. smart circ technology it gets better.

Sorry BC I just can not agree with you.

Second to last sentence

@ July 8, 2014 6:21 AM in Getting into mod/con business

In my last post I meant to type "seasonal SYSTEM efficiency". Because in the end with any boiler it is just one component of the whole hydronics system. But most mod/cons have built in components that enhance the total system.

Thats why AFUE needs to be dropped from this debate as Chris stated. The systen plays a big tole in how much actual savings will be achieved by any boiler.

The Big V

@ July 7, 2014 9:29 PM in Getting into mod/con business

I wonder how Viessmann can tote 108% efficiency with their Mod/Cons with return water temps below 90ish Hmmm.

You really have to think about the modulation, smart boiler/system pumping, system, and boiler loop deltas, RWT, Radiation being used. Those are all huge components of over all efficiencies. I say OVER ALL efficiency because AFUE just does not apply its a half a$$ benchmark that people try to apply to everything in the boiler line up. Remember the goal is to make the SYSTEM more efficient not just the boiler. Talk seasonal efficiencies.

Im just rying to get through the new math.

flushing technique

@ July 6, 2014 12:06 PM in Cleaning radiant tubing

It would seem to me with out actually knowing how much debris is in the loops you would want to start out with low pressure slowly increasing once good flow is established to avoid a blockage in the tubing from a right off the start high pressure flush. Never had to do one so just asking.

Dont forget

@ July 6, 2014 12:39 AM in stupidity

asbestos tainted Vermiculite Tony.

In your initial post

@ July 5, 2014 11:48 AM in I can not get my head around the over sizing of boilers

Your asking what the bigger boiler would do with the same amount of radiation.

The bigger boiler would get up to setpoint in both room, and water supply temperature faster only in that the cycle is using more btus from the oversized boiler burner to heat the water more rapidly. Like putting a pan of water on the small burner of a stove, or the large burner which one will heat the same size pan, and water content faster? If it takes say 15 minutes to bring supply water to 180, and satisfy the thermostat with right size boiler it may only take 12 minutes with a boiler to large. The larger burner is making the supply water seek equilibrium faster.

This can be a good thing, and a bad thing. Good in that it is quickly bringing the supply water, and room radiation up to temp to satisfying the thermostat. Bad in that it's burning more fuel to do the same work as the right size boiler, and it's doing the work so quickly that it never runs long enough to get a good efficient burn cycle before shutting down.

Adding more radiation to solve the problem would be counter productive IF the present radiation is of proper size. All you would be doing is bringing the room to its set point faster, and the boiler would still short cycle.

What over radiating Is good for is allowing one to use lower AWT to heat the space. With a conventional boiler you can only go so low with out proper boiler protection. With a modulating condensing boiler it's the cats meow to get that return water temp low to condense.

This is all thermal equilibrium as Hot Rod said. Mother Nature is always trying to achieve equilibrium.

shared x tank

@ June 29, 2014 10:49 AM in Poor radiant floor hydronic installation

how is this done with different domestic, and radiant system psi requirements? or is the radiant domestic pressure?

pipe attatchment practices

@ June 28, 2014 11:04 PM in Poor radiant floor hydronic installation

in zero gravity.

Dont Feel alone Charlie

@ June 19, 2014 8:45 PM in Some days I get a little burnt out

Im working on a bridge right now that should have been a total reconstruction. Its getting the duct tape band aid repair. But no they dump 25 million on an ornate arch bridge 2 miles away that gets 80% less traffic. That bridge needed a total recon also, but not of an ornate style.

The sad part is they could have done both for 12 million, and spent the other 13 million on other things. Its rampid.

So the polish proverb goes.

Aqua stat

@ June 19, 2014 6:03 PM in TT Smart 80 & Prestige Solo 110 Summer Gas Usage

As Charlie mentioned.

How big is your recirc pump you only need a little bump.

Bringing cooler water back to the tank is the nature of recirc. You should not be introducing a lot of lower temp water into the tank. You need to get your lines insulated is most of the problem. And an aqua stat.


@ June 18, 2014 9:29 PM in TT Smart 80 & Prestige Solo 110 Summer Gas Usage

Pipes, and boiler does domestic on high fire so its not going to be 93% efficient at that temperature output. But is way more efficient than a tank style water heater. Maybe widen differential to 10*.

air seperator location

@ June 18, 2014 7:38 PM in Noisy pump

It works more efficiently if it sees the hottest water in the system which promotes air coming out of solution which is going to be at the boiler supply.

I think you have velocity noise coupled with noise/harmonics transfer with the circ so close to the floor.

In your case

@ June 15, 2014 10:34 PM in Recirculating loop

No with a home run install.

Usually you would run a return from farthest fixture only back to water heater.


@ June 14, 2014 5:00 PM in Recirculating loop

No one does it anymore when piping, and layout lends itself?

My home is gravity recirc works well. Obviously this has limited applications.

Shes Free

@ June 12, 2014 10:29 PM in Donley Bros. Co. Vented ash clean out

I actually talked to a Mechanic friend who had some......No more kissing the mother in law Ice. Thats the Shist.


@ June 12, 2014 10:08 PM in Donley Bros. Co. Vented ash clean out

Bob the two fireplaces are fireplace/BBQ. The vented clean out doors allow you to control the coals ......somewhat. Suppose the same principle in a coal fired boiler/ furnace.

I actually made a lid by cutting a 31 gal galvanized trash can in half to do beer butt chicken , and rotisserie cooking in the fireplace and contain the heat. The can half fits perfectly. A little high heat spray paint and I'm off to the races.


@ June 11, 2014 7:09 PM in Noisy pump

Helps keep air entrained/ in solution with in the system allowing to get back to the air separator.

Two things drive air bubbles out of solution heat, and low pressure.

Purging with a garden hose is no guarantee that air is not in the system. Once water is heated micro bubbles come out of solution, and form large bubbles in low velocity areas in the system, and hang there.

Is this the cause of a noisy circ. can't answer that.

Closest thing I found on the net

@ June 11, 2014 6:33 PM in Donley Bros. Co. Vented ash clean out

To what I have just a pick, and they are different size. I'll try the kroil ice.
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