Joined on October 13, 2004
Last Post on March 9, 2014
@ February 26, 2014 6:05 PM in Has anyone ever heard of this?When considering the letter to the RPA they are looking for help, and guidance. That's better than condemning radiant heat around their products.
The how's, and whys this happend or is happening is leading to a high temp plate less radiant system that is attached to the upper flange of the joist possibly not insulated.
In other words poor installation practices. If at the very least this is indeed a problem then maybe they could insert a section on radiant heating protocol in their instructions.
Now IF this is indeed an effect of high temp poorly installed radiant heating then this should be a temporary effect. If drying of the upper say 1/4-1/3 of the I Joist is causing shrinkage due to moisture being driven out of the wood then after the heating season the total I Joist detail should acclimate itself through out its cross section. Woods a sponge always seeking equilibrium. So deflection should dissipate during the non heating season..
I would personally like to see moisture meter reading through out the cross sectional area of the joist. Was this done? Or we're visual assumptions made we see radiant there is the source of the problem.
I would also like to observe loading of the span, and attachments to, and with in the joist. I'm sure the APA observed these first before looking else where for a culprit.
At the very least out of this I see an opportunity for the RPA getting a foot hold on proactive information rather than reactive information inserted into documentation for various wood product manufacturers. It always seems here that people come with problems after it's a done deal, and money is the only solution in righting a hacks wrongs. It gives radiant heating an undeserved black eye.
We can not only depend on people with problems finding heating help.com.
@ February 26, 2014 6:17 AM in Has anyone ever heard of this?http://www.woodbywy.com/document/tb-108/
Not really what is going on with the APA issue, but does determine what moisture content is deemed serviceable.
@ February 25, 2014 9:08 PM in Has anyone ever heard of this?I'm willing to bet that these are clear spans with no bearing walls or beams. This is typically one of the advantages to the I Joist system. Lighter materials spanning longer distances, with the ability to actually cut bigger holes for mechanicals in the middle 1/3 of the span verses the outter 1/4 in typical wood joists. Complete with knock outs for piping that seldom seek use because the framer is sloppy in lining joists up.
@ February 25, 2014 8:59 PM in Has anyone ever heard of this?Apparently this is not an isolated problem the way the approach is taken from the letter. From your initial post this is what I thought to be an isolated case.
What Bob is saying about the radiant heating details is what I was leading to in my first post.
IF the APA truly is seeking help or advice then some details in the cases of radiant heating need be addressed. A poor install verse a quality one are two different animals.
@ February 25, 2014 8:07 PM in Has anyone ever heard of this?Sounds plausible in theory Mark....Or are they picking and choosing some RPA guidelines to their own defense?
Obviously moisture content can be the culprit, but what is the standard acclimation period for their product? What percent moisture content is it shipped at, what operating steady state is it designed for, or most ideal?
The depth of the IJoist plays into this also obviously the taller the more potential for moisture content stratification through out the depth of the I Joist.
But then this can happen in a whole bunch of different scenarios.
Some how there has to be a middle ground between wood product manufacturers, and radiant heating. Surely some type of standard can be agreed upon verses the. Blaming radiant heating every time something happens, and radiant happens to be in place.
As you say how many roofs are framed with I joists, and what temperatures do they see through out its depth? But then no one looks at the roof for 1/2 inch deflection.
@ February 25, 2014 6:40 PM in Has anyone ever heard of this?If it were insulated properly the moisture content if it were elevated would not be able to escape rapidly. The only place for it to go would be in the sub floor plywood, and insulation.
@ February 25, 2014 6:13 PM in Has anyone ever heard of this?I joist system? TJI is oriented strand board,, andBCI is ply wood.
Are the flanges LVL, or wood? LVL is laminated wood! wood flange is dimensional lumber.
Is he saying that the span deflected 1/2" in the center of the span? That's how I'm reading your post.
I think there are a lot of variables to look into on such a claim.
I Joist height?
What's running with in the I Joist through knock outs as far as mechanicals plumbing etc. ( span loading).
Moisture content of material on site ( material storage until used)
Conditions in the basement ( humidity) if this is a floor over a basement.
How was the staple up detail ? Tubing next to the top flange of I joist?
Insulation detail of staple up?
I really find this to be a stretch in a moisture stratification with in the I Joist itself. I find it hard to believe that moisture would be extracted that rapidly from just the upper portion of the I Joist wood likes to equalize.... It's Mother Nature you know.
All in all I think there is product failure, and someone is looking else where for something to blame it on.
I was never a big fan of the I Joist products just no meat, and potatoes to them. Around here the fire fighters all most refuse to go in an involved house if they know the floor is supported with I Joists.
In the end to answer your question directly no never heard of it. Unless the floor was loaded with a flooring choice that the the joists could not carry. Stone etc.
I think a moisture meter wood be the tool of choice. I would love to see the readings top flange to bottom flange.
@ February 23, 2014 11:14 AM in manifolds in series?Any way to separate the 3 non barrier loops, and run off a flat plate heat exchanger, and separate manifold? Be nice to keep the I floor in the cellar.
@ February 22, 2014 12:50 PM in how prevalent is this?To see how bright the new generation can be. I love that Twain quote!
@ February 22, 2014 12:02 PM in Soundproofing a boiler roomIsolation is the key.
Narrow down the sounds.
Piping expansion / contraction ?
Circulator noise transfer?
Fan noise if there is one?
US Gypsum website has information details for constructing sound proof wall details. All though I can't imagine a residential boiler would need such detail.
The attached photo is extreme. This is a dog house for two commercial kitchen exhaust fans which decibels will be such as two lawn mowers running inside the enclosure.
Wall detail is 2 layers 5/8 densglass, 3 5/8 metal studs with sound batt insulation, 5/8 sound proof drywall, and 5/8 cement board. The exterior will be finished with 2" EFIS.
This whole dog house is isolated at the floor frame to building attachment with 3/4" waffle isolation membrane. None of the vertical back wall will touch the building.
The fan units will sit on a platform with isolation springs along with isolators on the units frame.
@ February 22, 2014 10:46 AM in Help!! staple-up insulation foil mythThe only thing foil faced batts verses kraft faced batts are DESIGNED to do is provide greater vapor transmission resisitance, and elevate fire retarding. Not reflect radiant heat.
In reading your post he is trying to do niether with his recommendation.
Plenty of Ammo here to give the inspector.
@ February 18, 2014 6:12 PM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?People want to make it. ;))
Honestly if you take your heat loss program, and plug in theoretical set backs. Theoretical set points for the indoor temp you will see that at design conditions it's not enough to get excited about unless you are on oil, or LP this year, possibly electric depending on your kW rates.
Theoretically Brian may be correct, but it's such a small amount. As far as set back goes lots of variables.
In my case for 2000 sf home with a set back of 5 degrees for 6 hours is about 100 bucks a 6 month season on NG for fuel. It's actually less because the heat loss program is basing everything on a design day which is not all the time so there you have it. I did not get that anal about the calculations so it's probably a lot less than 100 bucks a season.
SWEI, and Brian are speaking different tongues. Brian is assuming a boiler is generously sized to pick up that deep set back probably still using boost to get there. On the other hand SWEI (Kurt ) is banking on just enough boiler to off set the heat loss there fore maximizing efficiency with a closely matched heat source. I won't speak for Kurt though.
Edit: this is enough said unless you want to go deeper? A mans home is his castle, and the MRT makes it a castle, or a cave. I shall relish in the fact I can sit in my recliner with my tightly whites, or wear sweats with a blanket? Hmmmmm.
@ February 17, 2014 2:25 PM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?If you are setting back 10 degrees, and actually achieving a 10 degree drop in temp for guessing 6 hour setback time frame. You either need some serious insulation up grades, or you never hit that 10 degree drop in temp until your system comes out of set back.
Either way the btus you think you saved during that period of set back will get added to the backside coming out of setback as the system will run longer, and at a higher water temp to attain the higher set point.
If your desire is to have cooler sleeping temps (not for everyone) , and no occupancy in the sleeping areas during the day I would suggest zoning for the said areas, and still maintain one set point.
@ February 16, 2014 9:55 PM in Bell and Gossett 100 mystery soundsYou should replace the mounts with the coupling. If you don't the coupling will fail prematurely due to miss alignment from worn mounts. Probably why they failed in the first place.
@ February 16, 2014 4:41 PM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?Should be part of the deign goal to achieve lower average water temps.
If emitters were in place, and this is a new boiler added to old emitters did you calculate emitter size? They may be already over sized IF envelope improvements were made after initial emitter sizing. Sometimes installers errored on the side of oversized.
Remember condensing is not the major part of a Mod/Cons efficiency, and savings. Its the ability to throttle the burner to the load. Same goes for TRVs. Dont get all wrapped up in the condensing end.
@ February 16, 2014 10:58 AM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?Setback obsession, set it and forget it.
You are defeating the purpose of the whole big V logic with either choice.
@ February 12, 2014 7:20 PM in Cold dayHvac guy comes to fix heating system. Throws a couple of parts on. Some needed maybe.
Hvac guy leaves heat still not performing as expected.......is he coming back? Did you only ask to fix the stuck circ, and pressure relief valve.
If he knows system is not performing well, and that you want it fixed, and he is not coming back to fix it after said parts did not help, or he was not thorough enough to do what was needed.......how is he in business?
@ February 11, 2014 11:33 PM in heat loss calculatorsIf your going to install all new elements take SWEI's advice. I find radiators a bit more elegant.
Definitely look at your fuel choices http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls
Check your electric rates it may be a better choice. Is cooling an option that need be addressed?
@ February 11, 2014 6:47 PM in heat loss calculatorsStart with a room by room heat loss.
This will tell you how many feet of base board needed for the style you choose.
Size your base board so you can use lower water temps if wall space allows for this. This is not so important since you are not installing a modulating condensing boiler.
Most base board manufactures have output charts for various water temps.
No gas available to your property?
@ February 11, 2014 6:06 PM in Luxury outdoor chaise: $3680Won't have to worry about it blowing away. I'm with Hot Rod hook it up!.