## Gordy

Joined on October 13, 2004

Last Post on March 8, 2014

### Recent Posts

« 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 108 »

### Garbage in

@ February 11, 2014 12:03 PM in heat loss calculators

Garbage out. If the information requested is in accurate then the calculation will be.

How big is your sons room?
How many exterior walls?
How many windows? Size, type?
What kind of heat?
What inside temp, and outside design temp did you use?
Do you know the outdoor design temp for your area?

6000 btus sounds about right for an average size bedroom with one or two exterior walls.....depends.

### Mark

@ February 11, 2014 9:03 AM in delta T

Serious data logging, and controlling goin on there Mark!

Well being that I can't monitor 64 data points, and control 32 actions I'm only making some ass-umptions.

Initially my particular system had 21 loops all parallel piped. With the circ I have in place, and the calculated head I'm running 15 gpm @ 11' of head so IF the loops are equal length which they are most likely not the gpm to each loop would be .71 gpm. 15gpm/21=.71 gpm

Now I have added 5 more loops to the system so now I have 26 loops/15gpm=.58gpm....approximately.

Now what I have in place is thermometers at the main supply, and return at the boiler after mixing, and at the other end of the main supply, and return at the farthest point from the the boiler which supply the radiant ceilings. I also have thermometers on the main supply, and return of the floor loops I added which are parallel piped also. All other temperature monitoring is done with an IR thermometer at various points.

The main supply return temps for the radiant ceilings has always been a 15 delta before, and after. Adding floor loops. The delta should have increased because of the lower flow rates in the loops. The added floor loops delta is a 9.

What's stuck,in my head is the main supply/return delta should have increased due to a theoretically lowered flow rate due to the addition of extra loops to the parallel piping system. It has not changed, so what I'm thinking is now that I have 4 rooms with opposing radiant surfaces that those surfaces are giving up less heat due to double the radiant surface area. There for even though the flow rates decreased the delta t remained the same....pretty much by accident, unintended,and now wondering why.

@ February 10, 2014 9:36 PM in Radiant heat zone not letting water flow

Should only be about 12-15 psi. Bumping up the pressure was just to purge the line. If your pressure is to high you may pop the boilers relief valve which is 30psi.

Is the bladder tank properly charged? To 12-15 psi?

### The math

@ February 10, 2014 9:13 PM in propane line not buried

How many btus is the heater rated for?

How many hours a week is it on? Is it on a thermostat?

How big of a space is it heating? How well insulated is it?

15 x 91500 btus = 1372500 btus a week that's at 100% efficiency

That's 196071btus a day or 2.14 gal

Or 8170 btus an hour if running constantly.thats .09 gallons per hour.

Don't know if that's good or bad with out knowing the fore mentioned info.

I would guess you either have a huge heater, or a poorly insulated space with a high set point. Or both.

I highly doubt your using more gas because it's not buried unless you have a leak. If you do have a leak it would not make a difference buried or not.

Around here code is 12" deep.

### Just like the younger days

@ February 10, 2014 5:15 PM in Chicago Nearing Record For Days Below Zero

That. I remember ......62/63. 78/79. 81/82

We have been spoiled for some time some 50's winters were brutal to.

### Super emitterated

@ February 10, 2014 6:19 AM in delta T

Mark,

Did you ever keep track of those readings with just certain radiation surfaces in place?

I know you have ceilings, floors,walls, and windows radiant surfaces. But they were,not all in place at once were they? If not did you data log with only certain surfaces in place?

I know in my own home when I only had radiant ceilings the delta s in individual loops were 5-10 deltas with total system supply return delta of 15. It was always rock solid, and never varied with outdoor temps. Same delta always floats with supply temps.

Now that I have added radiant floors to some of the rooms which now have radiant floors, and ceilings the delta is always a 9 for the floors, and total system delta dropped to 13. Still always the same though.

What's interesting is my radiant is parallel piped. New loops were no longer than any existing loops. Circulator the same. So in theory my system flow rate gets divided up by additional loops added so flow rates in loops actually decreased.

In your case, and mine designing for a 20 delta, and experiencing a 10 is it possible a certain square feet of radiation decreases design delta by a factor?

### One last thing

@ February 9, 2014 2:43 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

I should have emphasized this before. Make sure your base board is not blocked by furniture, or carpeting near the bottom opening. They depend on convection to operate efficiently. So if you block air from circulating through the bottom of the base board, and the top it will take longer to do its job.

### I'll make this easy

@ February 9, 2014 2:10 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Trust me on this.

Both heaters are electric right?

When both heaters are on they are using electricity right?

So the both cost the same to operate watt for watt.

The bigger heater(base board) is going to heat the space quicker, and be on probably less than the infra red space heater.

Use the base board. It will be more comfortable.

Now if we were comparing different types of heat sources gas, oil, kerosene, wood then it's worth doing some calculations. Your just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

### 18 cent KW

@ February 9, 2014 1:11 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Yikes!

### Chewy

@ February 9, 2014 1:05 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Do understand that the base boards do not run 24/7 so your ball park is off.

Unless not enough was installed for the heat load, or you dip way down below what the normal heat load was calculated for the sizing of the baseboard.

Also understand that 10 foot of base board is giving you more btus to heat with than your space heater. The base board if numbers are right is giving about 7500 btus compared to the space heater that gives about 5100 btus.
Like Harvey said evaluate a cheaper heat plant more than likely of an NG type of fuel source.

### Same info, and math

@ February 9, 2014 11:34 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Applies Chewy.

### Harvey's post

@ February 9, 2014 11:32 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Is probably due to an overloaded circuit, and the wiring got hot, and cooled multiple times creating a loose arcing connection. Or a sloppy outlet installation. Possibly aluminum wiring.

@ February 9, 2014 11:26 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

For the cost to operate that heater. Is the comfort there compared to what you have in place?

That's 90 bucks a month!

Many people are getting caught up in trying to save money on their heating costs this year do to the weather. Spot heating in the end really reduces comfort, increases operating cost, and increases a potentially hazardous condition.

In the end a btu needed is a btu used. And a therm, KW, gal of fuel to make it is still needed to get you to a comfort level.

### Nice post Harvey

@ February 9, 2014 11:18 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

### To find

@ February 9, 2014 11:15 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Total cost per KWH take your total monthly bill, and divide into total KWH used that month.

This will give you cost after all incurred fees. Usually the bill only states cost charge per KWH and then adds all taxes etc after.

Honestly if your base board zones are set up by certain zones, or areas ( multiple thermostats) you would be better served using what you have if the base boards are set up as to areas you are in can be run.

Otherwise an oil filled radiator type electric heater will give you far better comfort in a room than an infra red type heater for the same cost to operate. The radiator style heats the air not just objects or your person.

### It means

@ February 9, 2014 10:53 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

For every hour that heater is on it uses 1.5 kW. So if your rate costs .10 cents a kilowatt. It costs 15 cents an hour to run.

So,if you use it for 24 hours it costs 3.60 a day.
If you use it 6 hours a day that's .90 cents or 27.00 a month.
If there is only an on off setting. If there are lower settings naturally it will use less. That rating may be maximum output.

### Mike

@ February 9, 2014 9:08 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Exactly Mike,

Not a huge portion of homeowners understand how their wiring is suppose to work in their home.

One scenario would be if your wiring is 12/3 or 12/2 with 20 amp breaker. Outlets are rated 15 amp (without the rotated slot) in using that adapter you could make the outlet fail causing a fire, or burn up the in this case kill-a-watt.

A worse scenario would be 14/3 or 14/2 circuit or in any portion of the circuit with 15 amp outlet, and 20 amp breaker that someone had enough knowledge to switch out but not the understanding of the implications. Then there are multiple points of failure in wiring, outlet etc.

I sure would not produce such an adapter, I'm sure there is do, and donts in the literature.

### Yes

@ February 9, 2014 1:27 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

That one

### Where there is a will

@ February 9, 2014 1:22 AM in Electric heat, or infra-red

People find, or make a way.

All it takes from there is 12/3 wiring and a 20 amp breaker..

Amazing isn't it.

### Kill-a-watt

@ February 8, 2014 10:12 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Can be bought at most home improvement stores in the electrical section.

I'm only familiar with that brand it was the first device to do this,others followed. Cheaper is not always better.

Again if you know the heaters wattage the math is quite simple.

One other thing I hope you don't use this heater extensively, and unattended . They are not made to take the place of actual home heating means.

### Care should be given

@ February 8, 2014 7:13 PM in Modine HW Unit in Garage

Of course as to not forgetting to close garage door for the whole day in extreme conditions. Limiting supply return piping projection to, and from the unit helps. Mount unit on shared house garage wall.

### Power Purging

@ February 8, 2014 6:59 PM in Radiant heat zone not letting water flow

Did you after opening the system?
Is the zone valve oriented correctly?
Yes air in the line would be an issue. This would cause the loop not to flow, or be air bound.

You need to bump the pressure up with your water feed valve to about 25psi, and bleed the pipes.

If your piping allows you to isolate the boiler you can power purge under higher pressure.
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