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Gordy

Gordy

Joined on October 13, 2004

Last Post on April 13, 2014

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As deep as

@ February 18, 2014 6:12 PM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?

People want to make it. ;))

Honestly if you take your heat loss program, and plug in theoretical set backs. Theoretical set points for the indoor temp you will see that at design conditions it's not enough to get excited about unless you are on oil, or LP this year, possibly electric depending on your kW rates.
Theoretically Brian may be correct, but it's such a small amount. As far as set back goes lots of variables.

In my case for 2000 sf home with a set back of 5 degrees for 6 hours is about 100 bucks a 6 month season on NG for fuel. It's actually less because the heat loss program is basing everything on a design day which is not all the time so there you have it. I did not get that anal about the calculations so it's probably a lot less than 100 bucks a season.

SWEI, and Brian are speaking different tongues. Brian is assuming a boiler is generously sized to pick up that deep set back probably still using boost to get there. On the other hand SWEI (Kurt ) is banking on just enough boiler to off set the heat loss there fore maximizing efficiency with a closely matched heat source. I won't speak for Kurt though.


Edit: this is enough said unless you want to go deeper? A mans home is his castle, and the MRT makes it a castle, or a cave. I shall relish in the fact I can sit in my recliner with my tightly whites, or wear sweats with a blanket? Hmmmmm.
Gordy

Archibald

@ February 17, 2014 2:25 PM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?

If you are setting back 10 degrees, and actually achieving a 10 degree drop in temp for guessing 6 hour setback time frame. You either need some serious insulation up grades, or you never hit that 10 degree drop in temp until your system comes out of set back.

Either way the btus you think you saved during that period of set back will get added to the backside coming out of setback as the system will run longer, and at a higher water temp to attain the higher set point.

If your desire is to have cooler sleeping temps (not for everyone) , and no occupancy in the sleeping areas during the day I would suggest zoning for the said areas, and still maintain one set point.

Motor mounts

@ February 16, 2014 9:55 PM in Bell and Gossett 100 mystery sounds

You should replace the mounts with the coupling. If you don't the coupling will fail prematurely due to miss alignment from worn mounts. Probably why they failed in the first place.

oversizing emitters

@ February 16, 2014 4:41 PM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?

Should be part of the deign goal to achieve lower average water temps.

If emitters were in place, and this is a new boiler added to old emitters did you calculate emitter size? They may be already over sized IF envelope improvements were made after initial emitter sizing. Sometimes installers errored on the side of oversized.

Remember condensing is not the major part of a Mod/Cons efficiency, and savings. Its the ability to throttle the burner to the load. Same goes for TRVs. Dont get all wrapped up in the condensing end.

Neither

@ February 16, 2014 10:58 AM in Which of these two setbacks is more economical?

Setback obsession, set it and forget it.

You are defeating the purpose of the whole big V logic with either choice.

Okay I see

@ February 12, 2014 7:53 PM in Cold day

Was there a home inspection done before sale?

Am I missing something

@ February 12, 2014 7:20 PM in Cold day

Hvac guy comes to fix heating system. Throws a couple of parts on. Some needed maybe.

Hvac guy leaves heat still not performing as expected.......is he coming back? Did you only ask to fix the stuck circ, and pressure relief valve.

If he knows system is not performing well, and that you want it fixed, and he is not coming back to fix it after said parts did not help, or he was not thorough enough to do what was needed.......how is he in business?

I agree

@ February 11, 2014 11:33 PM in heat loss calculators

If your going to install all new elements take SWEI's advice. I find radiators a bit more elegant.

Definitely look at your fuel choices http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls

Check your electric rates it may be a better choice. Is cooling an option that need be addressed?

Direct answer

@ February 11, 2014 6:47 PM in heat loss calculators

Start with a room by room heat loss.

This will tell you how many feet of base board needed for the style you choose.
Size your base board so you can use lower water temps if wall space allows for this. This is not so important since you are not installing a modulating condensing boiler.

Most base board manufactures have output charts for various water temps.

No gas available to your property?

Weatherunderground.com

@ February 11, 2014 6:07 PM in annual BTU loss for Boston

Good source.

I'm digging it.

@ February 11, 2014 6:06 PM in Luxury outdoor chaise: $3680

Won't have to worry about it blowing away. I'm with Hot Rod hook it up!.

Agreed

@ February 11, 2014 6:03 PM in heat loss calculators

If you are talking about x amount of btus per square foot then that's why it's such a high number. That's called thumbing it in.......a no no.

No heat

@ February 11, 2014 1:12 PM in heat loss calculators

To room now and it over heats?

Why did piping for base board freeze?

Is the crawl space vented, or conditioned?

Does piping for base board exist on
The crawl space?

Garbage in

@ February 11, 2014 12:03 PM in heat loss calculators

Garbage out. If the information requested is in accurate then the calculation will be.

How big is your sons room?
How many exterior walls?
How many windows? Size, type?
What kind of heat?
What inside temp, and outside design temp did you use?
Do you know the outdoor design temp for your area?

6000 btus sounds about right for an average size bedroom with one or two exterior walls.....depends.

Mark

@ February 11, 2014 9:03 AM in delta T

Serious data logging, and controlling goin on there Mark!

Well being that I can't monitor 64 data points, and control 32 actions I'm only making some ass-umptions.

Initially my particular system had 21 loops all parallel piped. With the circ I have in place, and the calculated head I'm running 15 gpm @ 11' of head so IF the loops are equal length which they are most likely not the gpm to each loop would be .71 gpm. 15gpm/21=.71 gpm

Now I have added 5 more loops to the system so now I have 26 loops/15gpm=.58gpm....approximately.

Now what I have in place is thermometers at the main supply, and return at the boiler after mixing, and at the other end of the main supply, and return at the farthest point from the the boiler which supply the radiant ceilings. I also have thermometers on the main supply, and return of the floor loops I added which are parallel piped also. All other temperature monitoring is done with an IR thermometer at various points.

The main supply return temps for the radiant ceilings has always been a 15 delta before, and after. Adding floor loops. The delta should have increased because of the lower flow rates in the loops. The added floor loops delta is a 9.

What's stuck,in my head is the main supply/return delta should have increased due to a theoretically lowered flow rate due to the addition of extra loops to the parallel piping system. It has not changed, so what I'm thinking is now that I have 4 rooms with opposing radiant surfaces that those surfaces are giving up less heat due to double the radiant surface area. There for even though the flow rates decreased the delta t remained the same....pretty much by accident, unintended,and now wondering why.


For your amusement Mark as if you already don't have enough to think about.

Your system pressure

@ February 10, 2014 9:36 PM in Radiant heat zone not letting water flow

Should only be about 12-15 psi. Bumping up the pressure was just to purge the line. If your pressure is to high you may pop the boilers relief valve which is 30psi.

Is the bladder tank properly charged? To 12-15 psi?

The math

@ February 10, 2014 9:13 PM in propane line not buried

How many btus is the heater rated for?

How many hours a week is it on? Is it on a thermostat?

How big of a space is it heating? How well insulated is it?

15 x 91500 btus = 1372500 btus a week that's at 100% efficiency

That's 196071btus a day or 2.14 gal

Or 8170 btus an hour if running constantly.thats .09 gallons per hour.

Don't know if that's good or bad with out knowing the fore mentioned info.

I would guess you either have a huge heater, or a poorly insulated space with a high set point. Or both.

I highly doubt your using more gas because it's not buried unless you have a leak. If you do have a leak it would not make a difference buried or not.

Around here code is 12" deep.

Just like the younger days

@ February 10, 2014 5:15 PM in Chicago Nearing Record For Days Below Zero

That. I remember ......62/63. 78/79. 81/82

We have been spoiled for some time some 50's winters were brutal to.

Super emitterated

@ February 10, 2014 6:19 AM in delta T

Mark,

Did you ever keep track of those readings with just certain radiation surfaces in place?

I know you have ceilings, floors,walls, and windows radiant surfaces. But they were,not all in place at once were they? If not did you data log with only certain surfaces in place?


I know in my own home when I only had radiant ceilings the delta s in individual loops were 5-10 deltas with total system supply return delta of 15. It was always rock solid, and never varied with outdoor temps. Same delta always floats with supply temps.

Now that I have added radiant floors to some of the rooms which now have radiant floors, and ceilings the delta is always a 9 for the floors, and total system delta dropped to 13. Still always the same though.

What's interesting is my radiant is parallel piped. New loops were no longer than any existing loops. Circulator the same. So in theory my system flow rate gets divided up by additional loops added so flow rates in loops actually decreased.

In your case, and mine designing for a 20 delta, and experiencing a 10 is it possible a certain square feet of radiation decreases design delta by a factor?

One last thing

@ February 9, 2014 2:43 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

I should have emphasized this before. Make sure your base board is not blocked by furniture, or carpeting near the bottom opening. They depend on convection to operate efficiently. So if you block air from circulating through the bottom of the base board, and the top it will take longer to do its job.

I'll make this easy

@ February 9, 2014 2:10 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Trust me on this.

Both heaters are electric right?

When both heaters are on they are using electricity right?

So the both cost the same to operate watt for watt.

The bigger heater(base board) is going to heat the space quicker, and be on probably less than the infra red space heater.

Use the base board. It will be more comfortable.

Now if we were comparing different types of heat sources gas, oil, kerosene, wood then it's worth doing some calculations. Your just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

18 cent KW

@ February 9, 2014 1:11 PM in Electric heat, or infra-red

Yikes!
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