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The Wall


Joined on October 13, 2004

Last Post on September 18, 2014

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Ya mean like this Poor mans Plates

@ January 3, 2008 8:08 PM in Radiant Floor Heat Transfer Film?

It does work. I did the other half of the kitchen with no heavy gauge foil. There is a noticable but anal difference. I filled the tube groove with thinset, then back buttered my backer board with thinset before laying in place. I'm going to be tiling the dining room next 15 x 12. This time I will do the foil like Andrew is saying by wrapping the tube. I was going to use this method before. My plan is to do sleeper RFH in each room as I redo the floor coverings. I have ceiling radiant now 56 years old still going. At least this way I will be covered if it ever craps out. Until then I will enjoy a radiant sandwich, or I can set it up as two systems to run independent or together. Sure would like to use that graphite wrap for the rest of the house but until then..... Gordy

You gotta love that kind of advice!!

@ January 3, 2008 8:04 AM in O.T.: marriage counseling

Your right HR

@ December 31, 2007 11:20 PM in Warm Floors? I think NOT!

Unless you reduce the area of radiant. Predicting traffic patterns in the future to do this may not work out very well. This goes for any radiant surface, at least ceilings/walls would not be an issue in dealing with traffic patterns like RFH. Gordy

Conductive concrete??

@ December 31, 2007 11:16 PM in Warm Floors? I think NOT!

Remember an article sometime ago Dan posted on the wall about conductive concrete. He was wanting us to think outside the box. Could be time for that. Gordy

Thats why the Divorce

@ December 29, 2007 5:28 PM in O.T.: marriage counseling

Rate is so high anymore. Everyone else is doing it right? So you feel as though you are in good company, maybe a little more secure about not trying. You both have to want to make it work no matter if God himself is your councelor. There is alot of good posts here share your thoughts. The wisdom on the Wall goes way beyond Steam, and Hot Water. I Like Dans marriage advice just nod its not hard. Sometimes we forget how much we take the Mrs. is there to remind us when its her turn. Gordy

Also has a website

@ December 28, 2007 6:35 AM in Warm Floors? I think NOT!

I remember Tom, I miss his candor ( in your face) on the RPA board. Low cost, water heater, closed loop, ceiling systems. I see a post every now and then from him. Hope all is well with him. Gordy

Another believer

@ December 27, 2007 5:55 PM in Warm Floors? I think NOT!

Good to see someone who recognizes the ceilings potential! Gordy


@ December 24, 2007 9:53 AM in New Boiler Od gas bill = Frustrated

As been mentioned in the other posts you need to compare apples to apples to see what your rewards may be. You are comparing therms that is a good start BUT. What are the HDD from last year to this year? IS the bill estimated, or actual from the same periods last year to this year? Is the billing cycle the same? If you are using gas to heat your DHW is usage the same? Was the new boiler installed after the envelope was tightened or before, or at the same time? Cost per therm? This is just a start. Gordy


@ December 24, 2007 9:34 AM in GAS BILL $$$$$$$

Here in Illinois NG is 1.11 per therm after Tax title and License. My last bill was 108.00 for 2300 sf, useage 120.78 therms. This includes DHW, BBQ, and a gas light. 987 degreee days, bill cycle 32 days. 82% efficient boiler thats over 100% over sized. T-stat set at 72*. For what you have I would not complain. Bottom line you need to upgrade your system if you want to reap any ROI. Gordy

Stressing the HX

@ December 23, 2007 12:25 PM in GAS BILL $$$$$$$

When you are not using all the burners you are not heating the heat exchanger evenly, this could eventually cause enough stress to crack the casting. But on the old ones they are heavy duty can probably take more stress.

Agree with Mike

@ December 23, 2007 12:29 AM in I notice south of my border

The square heads are just a little bit better than a philips. Hex heads are better then both. Quicker tip alignment, less prone to strip, more prone to snap the head off though in tougher woods. Gordy

@ December 22, 2007 3:32 PM in New Boiler Od gas bill = Frustrated

You are comparing consumption in therms. Question, is the cost of the therms from last year to this year. Are you using the new boiler to heat your domestic hot water, where maybe before you did not? Is the new boiler the same or smaller btu rated than the old? Most important, are you more comfortable before you weatherized the house, and installed a new boiler or now? Gordy


@ December 18, 2007 5:41 PM in r value chart

Darned if I can make that formula work Mark to desifer a realistic r value. I asked you for that very formula you posted at one time. It seems something is wrong with the formula. With out taking a temperature measurement of the outside skin verses the air temperature, how can this formula work? I know r value is forever changing in the real world, but a snap shot on a design day scenerio would be helpful. Short of ripping into walls to see what is there in an existing wall you really don't know what you have. Adding the r values of my wall configuration together does come close to the chart method I posted. What do you see wrong with it Mark.

Exactly Mike!

@ December 12, 2007 7:39 PM in Connect new munchkin to 50 yr old water expansion tank

Excellent explaination ! Gordy

Will do JP

@ December 11, 2007 6:53 PM in Our FIRST residential radiant window project (ME)

I know my walls have a higher delta t from inside face to outside face. Especially the lower the outside temp gets. Heating the window area to negate its losses has always been in the history of hot water heat. Why do you always see Rads in front of the windows in the old victorian homes with hot water heating. Yes you are right in reference to the cost to operate electric verses gas. But it depends on where ya live to the cost of those kilowatts, and whether or not this is an alternative heat sorce. I believe Marks thinking goes way deeper then just off setting the heat losses of a window. He is more excited about the fact that there is a solution out there to a problem in heating these super insulated homes. The straight forward RFH tends to be a little over powering in these homes. Couple that with the fact that to keep conventional RFH tamned enough for such homes they lose their cozy warm feet luster. The only solution is to cut down on the area of radiant,and raise the temps to get that cozy feeling back which means the RFH has to be strategically placed to benifit the warm feeling floor to the occupant. That can create another issue... who knows where furniture will be for the next century in the home. Since windows are the greatest heat loss in any structure why not heat them its still radiant, a heated window on a 10* day would probably give the same cozy effect to an occupant as RFH, maybe even better. This glass goes farther than off setting losses they will heat to a higher temperature than needed to off set the windows losses. Who would think that one day it may be said, we need to add another window to meet the load of this room. I for one think the applications are endless. The one hurdle is operating, and product costs. But as the dino juice supply dwindles there are not many alternatives to electric yet on the horizon besides hot water solar, and when you get alot of sun you ususlly don't need much heat. PV panels are cost prohibitive for something of this high of wattage. Think outside the box on this one I think it will be big. JMHO Gordy


@ December 11, 2007 5:01 PM in Connect new munchkin to 50 yr old water expansion tank

Mark, the Airtrol tank fitting lets the air in the system go back into the expansion tank. But it does not allow the oxygen saturated water in the expansion tank to migrate back into the system. My WM boiler has a built in air removal tapping next to the supply, so my ATF is piped direct off of this to the compression tank. no need for an air seperator in my situation. If the water supply to the auto feeder is off once the system pressure is set, I don't understand how the tank can get water logged.

JP Measured window temps.

@ December 11, 2007 2:23 PM in Our FIRST residential radiant window project (ME)

I have done some extensive temp. measurements on my old 50's, but in good condition multi lite double hungs with gasketed storm. On a 32* day Room temp. 72* 4" between glass Cloudy day drapes open outside the glass storm = 36.1* Between the doublehung and storm favoring the double hung glass = 55.8* inside of doublehung window = 63.5 Delta t room temp to room side of glass on doublehung =8.8* Delta t room side of glass to between the storm and doublehung = 7.7* Delta t between double hung and storm to outside surface of storm = 19.7* Delta t room side of glass to outside of storm surface = 27.4* Delta t Room temp to outside surface of storm = 35.9* I have a pella combination window that is from the 80's thermopane fixed unit with casements on either side no low e not close to out performing my older window units. Point is you need to keep that radiant window temp. close or a little higher than the room setpoint to negate the losses of the window to realise some comfort (window sucking your body heat away). Thats IF you are just using this sort of window as a supplement to a main heating plant. If the window were to be used as a sole source to heat a dwelling then higher temps. would be needed. example a low loss SIP home. As you can see by my window temp measurements keeping the window at 65* won't do much better than an older window like mine, so why bother with the radiant glass. My experiment is on going, and await a design day(-10*) at night to see what kind of delta t's I get. Gordy


@ December 9, 2007 7:29 PM in boiler gone wrong

Enough said Mark!!!

But....Does it work Joshua?

@ December 9, 2007 7:25 PM in boiler gone wrong

I just had to ask. You just asked what we thought of the visual. Is this one where beauty is in the eye of the beholder? What was he beholding? Personally if this were a house being built for me... I would have made enough appearances checking on the progress of work to throw this installer off the site, before things went as far as they did. Is it feasable to do that kind of work in a single day? I would be seeing the GC, and the installer in court. Pictures are all the proof a judge would need. A 10 year old would have to question the logistics of this assembly. Gordy

Not on the front lines

@ December 7, 2007 7:55 PM in Gas Meter Change

But I had to have the regulator that was leaking replaced on my gas meter this past summer. NICOR relit the pilot on the water heater (only pilot I have), and turned the water heater down to 120* before he could leave ( their protocal). Gordy

A lot of old news

@ December 5, 2007 6:10 AM in Our FIRST residential radiant window project (ME)

Out there....Sometimes technology is used to fix a certain problem, with out realizing potentials in other areas. Shame on them for not following through, hurray for the one who can see the market potential, and make it better. Its all in finding the right application, and the marketing. I think this could be huge given time. Gordy

Glass Coating??

@ December 4, 2007 11:01 PM in Our FIRST residential radiant window project (ME)

Mark, does the glass coating have anything to do with the lack of transfer outward? Look at the delta t of an oven window. When its 400* in the oven you can still touch the glass, its hot but not untouchable. I have to say what I do like is the simplicity, and a product (the window) becoming duel purpose. You will certainly not talk anyone out of windows in a building may as well use them to heat it if you can. When you look at some of the mechanical rooms on this site, while quite beautiful to the pros. They are almost if not intimidating to someone who is not familiar with the logistics of radiant heat mechanicals. I tend to wonder how many people who look to buy a home that has radiant heat take a look at the mechanical room, and it looks so complex that they are afraid to buy into it. Asspecially when all they have ever had to do before is replace a F/A furnace filter. I'm not knocking the installs I find them quite beautiful...but the average person. Thats where simplicity comes in. Gordy
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