## Enough

Joined on October 7, 2005

Last Post on October 26, 2005

### hand shower

@ October 26, 2005 12:50 PM in My Bathroom renovation w/radiant (s. milne )

I wash my hands in the same water I use on the rest of me:) If your hand shower is the pipe in the corner, you might want to check if you will be able to get it installed after the tile is in. Figure 1" or so for the backer and tile. if there is an elbow you might not be able to swing it. Steve

### Moo,

@ October 26, 2005 12:03 PM in TRV + Conroller = How much Savings???

"If you overheat the upstairs, you need more BTU to do that, but MOST of that BTU leaks out to the downstairs!" My numbers show that with 2x10 joists on 16" centers, uninsulated that if the full delta T was on the joists, which it isn't, that construction will only pass .171 btu/hr/sf. With 600 sf at this temp difference, you have 102 btu/hr going upstairs to down. Add ceiling, floor and any floor covering and that number drops and drops. Compare that to the 4500 btu/h saving I have already calculated. Look at the NUMBERS and tell everyone where the extra heat goes. "There is indeed reduced loss through the outside wall, but it is small change." Do your calculations show different? "When you put in a TRV upstairs, you need to heat the downbstairs more." Making a statement more definitively does not make it true. "If upstairs is 80F and downstairs is 70F, heat is flowing from upstairs to downstairs (by conduction). It's the same reason a basement isn't as cold as the outside world, even if there is no heat source there." The reason a basement is warmer is that the heat loss is mainly through conduction into 45* dirt when it's 0* outside. Oh, and there's a boiler and piping in it too. Heat loss from your upper floors is mostly radiant to the outside which is much colder. "REALLY difficult though to put a number to the savings." For some more than others. "This goes against what everyone here says, but if you ask them for numbers, studies, they'll waffle." Who's making waffles? The reason that contractors think it is difficult to quantify is that it is. Insulation, windows, infiltration, room shape all play a role. If the HO has lower fuel bills will they turn up their thermostat a little? The FACT does not change that if all things are equal, adding less heat to water will require less energy. I have numbers that match my structure. No contractor or homeowner is going to hire an engineer to justify a \$500 TRV job on a residence. If the homeowner is going to withold payment if the savings aren't exactly what they were told, the contractor will not take the job. To Derek, you need to determine why you are going with TRV's and what the consequence (open windows, overheating, etc) of not having them is. Once you know what the response to poor temp control is, you can assigne a value to that based on changing your heat loss parameters to match the goal vs. the current situation. Assign a likelihood that so many percent of the units will have the problem you are solving and that will be the *educated* guess of your savings. But, that's just my opinion. Steve

### Moo,

@ October 26, 2005 11:51 AM in TRV + Conroller = How much Savings???

> _BR_ > downstairs will have to produce more
> heat to _BR_ > compensate._BR_
>
> If upstairs
> is 80F and downstairs is 70F, heat is flowing
> from upstairs to downstairs (by conduction). It's
> the same reason a basement isn't as cold as the
> outside world, even if there is no heat source
> there.
>
> If the upstairs is now kept at 70F, the
> heat downstairs must run a little longer to make
> up for the loss of ceiling heat.
>
> > REALLY
> difficult though to put a number to the savings.
> _BR_
>
> What I said.

### Moo,

@ October 25, 2005 3:32 PM in TRV + Conroller = How much Savings???

Speaking of expectation, plain coffee at Starbucks is less expensive than DD and doesn't taste like styrofoam. \$180 was required to do 3 bedrooms with TRV's. I have a wrench. Raising the design temperature difference in my house raises the heat load from 53600 to 62600 BTU/h. The upstairs would be half of that or 4500. That alone is more than 8%. Heat transfers proportionately to temperature difference so the smallest heat loss will be to another room. The dominant transfer will be to the outside. I spent the 180 for comfort, but now that I see the actual calculated numbers, i am glad to have a payback. Steve

### Moo,

@ October 25, 2005 12:44 PM in TRV + Conroller = How much Savings???

I have an upstairs that typically overheats all winter. BTU's are leaking out where I don't want them to. Once they are in my room they exit the house faster because heat transfers by the extra 10* temp difference. I just installed TRV's on the upper floor and already they are keeping the radiators as regulated. The Btu's are heading back to the boiler. Why don't you expect to see reduced fuel consumption from this? I only have to make up \$180 in fuel and I don't need to do it this year to be happy. Steve

### You are right

@ October 24, 2005 10:02 AM in seasonal efficiency variation puzzler (new Munchkin vs old CI)

I cannot compare your house to mine. That is modern communication for you - think after you click send. The reason I made the comment is that I don't consider my house energy efficient and the numbers were close. If you had a 6000sf uninsulated victorian I would indeed be extremely high in consumption. Here is my graph which will only be useful to you based on it's shape, not it's values. Warm month values are out to lunch because my baseline goes from 9-18 in warm weather. I also add 1degree day to the calculation so I don't divide by zero. Aside from the phenomenon you have discovered, do you feel that you will get a reasonable payback of your additional expense? Steve

### Condensate

@ October 21, 2005 3:56 PM in new install of vitodens 200

Very nice home, Garry. I am curious about your condensate going into your drain stack. Is there a lining in the drain line that is resistant to corrosion? I was under the impression that the condensate is corrosive and needs to be neutralized before going into cast iron drain. Can anyone back me up or correct me? Steve

### Taco PC700

@ October 21, 2005 1:09 PM in Boiler control for Non-Condensing

I thought the instruction manual looked familiar. This is on the last page. Steve

### Tekmar

@ October 21, 2005 8:45 AM in Boiler control for Non-Condensing

I looked at the Tekmar 256 install brochure and there is a sensor for boiler output. Do I need to concern myself with return temp? If so, there is no sensor for that. I assume that the circulators become decoupled from boiler firing during heat calls. Am I correct? Steve

@ October 19, 2005 12:46 PM in Indirect tanks - mostly the same?

Fred, What is the brand of tank you are describing? Steve

### Thanks

@ October 19, 2005 8:14 AM in Triangle Tube Prestige

Thanks for the reply Aidan. Steve

@ October 17, 2005 12:53 PM in Triangle Tube Prestige

My contractor informed me that the prestige is a european design. Doing some homework shows that the Prestige Solo a design from ACV in Belgium. A major difference as I see it is the euro models are concentric vent while our are not. Does anyone out there have experience with ACV boilers and the company?

@ October 14, 2005 12:58 PM in Viessmann Nightmare!

If Ken gave out some of these marathon "discussions" to his prospects he would have less troubles with customers. I see posts on how to sell up a customer to high end equipment, but not the reverse. My installer was trying to get me into Viessmann but it wasn't going to fit the particulars of my house. Shame on the customer for wanting the best and being willing to pay for it. You could have told the customer that you do not install these, or that you weren't trained on the controls/install, and have never touched one before and that would have been it. It was unfair to take the money for this if you could not deliver. A classic uninformed decision.

### service department

@ October 13, 2005 1:27 PM in low mass condensing boilers

Are you saying I will see a lot of my service man if I install a Triangle Prestige? I need flexible venting through my chimney and that is not an option with Vitodens (unless I burn inside air). I am looking at Triangle as a solution for this but do not want to shoot myself in the foot (my current boiler is working). Steve