Joined on February 17, 2005
Last Post on December 2, 2013
@ December 2, 2013 9:43 PM in BTU Meterthat badger is the meter i was looking at as an alternative but this is $200 cheaper than i was finding.
@ December 2, 2013 9:31 PM in BTU Meterif i don't laugh about this, i'll cry, so thanks
@ December 2, 2013 1:54 AM in BTU Meterhour meters on zones that have radically different amounts of radiation don't tell you anything about relative consumption of fuel being divided up, unless a highly educated correction is made based on radiation per zone is made. And tell the tenant who is going to have to pay more than their proportion of hours suggest because they have more radiation and they will suddenly become ignorant of heat transfer science -- if they ever knew anything about it.
And even then, you can still have significant discrepencies if flow rate varies given head pressure including piping and gravity resistance, air in loops, etc.
supposedly iWorx from TACO does this but i don't know where that is really going. don't see components for sale anywhere. maybe they are so specialized you don't find them on the net the way you do TACO's other offerings, but I notice one iWorx component that was listed on pexsupply.com has been discontinued.
found some non-TACO btu meters that appear to be in the $750 to $1000 range. That is a little pricey, i could maybe see under $500. And there is the problem, as others have pointed out, that when some tenant wants to lawyer up, the sods down at your local public utilities regulators frown on these arrangements. which is stupid of course, because, even if they are imperfect or meters are not utility grade, without an ability to make an approximation of splitting the utility bill, inhabitants have no incentive to conserve as the only alternative is to charge as a percentage of the building area regardless of whether they set their thermostats low or high.
With the advent of smaller modulating boilers this problem may evenutally go away as this hour meter type energy split is common in many condo conversions from the 80s when there weren't boilers available with low enough firing rate to not be overfired for individual apartments. Of course the expense of boiler replacements is more than anyone has in mind when they go to get the metering as fair as possible, but before i'd spend in the thousands on a meter for each apartment i'd consider putting the money toward separate boilers.
That said, if anyone has had good experience with a btu meter and estimates that one can be bought and installed more like $500
@ November 28, 2013 1:11 PM in big nipple trays?but it appears that freud has intervened.
@ November 28, 2013 1:10 PM in big nipple trays?nice idea. i'm open to building my kit. everything that is sold seems to be an outty, i.e. the nipples are organized by dividers that are external.
but strategically placed inner supports have potentional. I'm not as into the of dowels. depending on their diamenter and the screw coming into the end grain i tend to worry a little about the resilience.
but i could see a tray with a plywood insert in the bottom with tight holes drilled fr the OD of sch. 40 plastic one size larger than the desired nippled containment. Then make an approiates set of graded lengths of PVC and pound into the board and voila.
This allows you to mix runs of multiple sizes in one tray. i'm gonna give this a shot, inspired thanks to your post.
@ November 28, 2013 12:50 PM in big nipple trays?thanks
@ November 28, 2013 12:48 PM in big nipple trays?with my nipples ;-) Think I can handle the three wide2" tray that sprint is talkin' about. and by the time i can't a wheelchair is gonna be more important . . .
@ November 27, 2013 10:09 AM in big nipple trays?The biggest stock trays I can find after a half hour of googling are 1 and 1/4" and the oversize are all single size. how about a tray for 1" and 1 and 1/4" and a tray for 1 and 1/2" and 2". or god forbid a tray for all 4 oversizes with maybe 2 rows for 1 and 1 and 1/4 and one row each for the bigger ones.
or how about changeable inserts and you can pick the sizes you need.
if I could think of a simple quick way to make dividers I guess I could make my own but there are only so many ideas i have time to go build myself, so if anyone is aware of a manufactuer/reseller offering wider variety of these trays going up to the big sizes would appreciate a pointer. (or if you have your own homegrown trick for making dividers in a hurry I'm all ears).
@ November 27, 2013 10:02 AM in Temporary heating ideas. . . and how many floors.
I agree generally with the oil filled radiators. sounds like this is a one off for you. those of us who service throughout the winter often keep a stable of a dozen of these things. 3 or 4 even a half dozen deployed strategically in a house can go a long way and you don't need special plugs although if you've got a steam system and your wiring is from that same era you might have trouble finding circuits ready made to run that many.
But if you sort circuits a little the other advantage to this approach is it is well dispersed through the house vs. one big unit.
I wait for the spring sales and lay in 4 to 6 of these units every year (they do seem to evaporate).
The only problem with these as backup for emergencies is that could often mean a time when you don't have power. Installing a couple 30,000 to 50,000 btu ventless gas wall heaters would give you something that can run when there is no power (of course a atmospheric gas steam boiler with a powerpile is one of the few 'look ma no electricity' heating systems so depending on what your new boiler is you might have that covered.
@ November 27, 2013 9:10 AM in sandy revisited. . . what kind of piping problems. not getting primary secondary right or are these steam or . . . seems like it was mostly ranch/shore houses that got a salt water bath. can't imagine that the piping could be that complicated.
@ November 25, 2013 5:47 PM in pex to male hose thread fitting. . . maybe you better get your ears checked.
but seriously folks and weesbo, thanks for the note on product development in this area. i love to find people that want to make great stuff that works, e.g. http://greatstuffthatworks.com/ . too bad it couldn't be apple valley in RI -- we got one of them. Since I can't get that lucky, i'll probably have to commune with this fellow in cyberspace.
But havin' 'em around the corner don't always work anyway. I been wheedling TACO for 4 years now to have their PC 700 and 702s to have an option for automatically cycling their zones for 5 minutes every hour even if there isn't a thermostat call when it is teens and under (or at some settable point for outdoor temp) so that i stop getting calls for frozen baeboard where the heat goes into a deep nighttime setback and the baseboard freezes before there is another heat call.
and TACO is just down the street from most of my jobs, but their development engineer that i know, Dave Sweet , seems to be on junkets out of the office more than he is there so i can never get him. Getting with wirsbo on the net doesn't seem like that much of a challenge. Can you send me some contact for this guy.
@ November 25, 2013 1:32 PM in pex to male hose thread fitting. . . the time to tape and dope the threads and then hold these widgety fidgety things while you thread on the adapter. no excuse they don't make a ready made crimp in pex to hose. I know most would see temporary use and get thrown out or be sitting unused as bleeding outlets most of the time but the time savings alone would it make it worth throwing a few away here or there.
I did find a pex to female hose angle at pexuniverse.com, e.g. http://www.pexuniverse.com/sioux-chief-dishwasher-elbow-637xb23h, which is a dishwasher and/or icemaker adapter which i can make use of but goggle brings up pictures online of a real single piece fitting brass pex by male hose, but i cannot find anyone who sells them and i would beat a path to their door if anyone did.
thanks for workaround notions though.
@ November 25, 2013 11:44 AM in pex to male hose thread fittingi don't know why this seems like the worlds most obvious fitting that ought to be made. I can find a few pictures online of something that looks like it might be the fitting i desire, but i cannot find anyone selling them.
there are some plastic multi-turn sillcocks but i'm looking for at lest 1/4 turn ball valve type if i'm going to use sillcock or boiler drain format and actually, i'd just as soon have a no valve version. i tend to buy copper manifold with an extra branch to put a bleeding valve on so I can stand right by the manifold and bleed each loop in a radiant install individually. the manifolds have valves on them anyway, so i don't really need a valve, I just need an adapter.
and i often want to use one of these for quick water avsailability when rough out is not complete on a job but you want to run a hose somewhere, etc.
Any news of close encounters with these fittings would be much appreciated.
@ November 25, 2013 7:22 AM in is there a pump blank fitting?feels good to know i'm not the only one who thinks about this stuff. And thanks, hot rod, for the locktite tip. That makes it easier to get them to the right spread and orientation.
@ November 24, 2013 9:25 PM in is there a pump blank fitting?I want to see if I can get a short loop to thermosiphon for circulation. Is there a blank up pipe with two flanges made to the length of a circulator. I guess I can come pretty close with a nipple and a couple flanges but had never thought about whether there was such a fitting.
@ November 20, 2013 12:57 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?which is essentially as Morpho expected, but clearly shows the company standing behind the use of all its units, HLW certified and not, for heating use but recognizing the realities of local decisions. You'll notice that in practice Takagi has seen some jurisdictions allow dual use, but not that it is required. And the engineers reference to the difference between H and HLW requirements suggests again that there is no evidence whatsoever the HLW appliances are not appropriate for low to modest temperature applications with observation of necessary overtemp, flow and water 'level safeties. It seems it would behoove the industry to develop a best practices set of standards for those kind of uses for non "H" stamped appliances. As to whether the HLW itself is even required that would seem an open question from Takagi's point of view -- jurisdiction specific but not anything they shrink from.
I apologize for how long this has taken for a response. I have looked into this. There is a difference between HLW and H stamps. As you noted HLW is for potable use and H is for heating. There are differences in testing standards between the H and HLW standards. I believe the H stamp is more strict because it is dealing with higher temperature water and potential higher pressure issues due to most heating systems being closed loops. HLW is for potable use so it is unlikely that water temperatures will go above 180 degrees where a heating boiler can go up to 210 degrees.
Every jurisdiction is different as to what codes they adopt and follow. In most locations in the US the inspectors do not enforce an H stamp requirement for heating applications. That is why we state that our heaters can be used in the applications. Application wise, our heaters are very good for heating systems. It is the administrative side that makes it tough.
I have heard where inspectors will allow dual use with the HLW stamp, however, that is a locale issue and you should check with your local code officials.
If they are going to require an H stamp product for your application then I have to tell you that we do not produce a product with the H stamp.
I hope this information was helpful.
Tankless Application Engineer
@ November 3, 2013 1:32 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?It says that in some places on some models but there it isn't easy to figure out if they just mean the is a suitable off label use or if some fo them have 'certifications' to go with. It doesn't say anythingspecific about that in the specifications on their web site. They have a bunch of glyphics for their certifications, but they don't have a text version that tells you what the glyphics mean. some have initials that might be recognized here, but i don't know why they don't just spell it out.
i'm gonna call 'em up and find out what they say about this
@ November 3, 2013 8:09 AM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?i'm going to call Takagi on Monday, just because inquiring minds want to know.
Various Amazon lisitings say the Jr. is good for Radiant heat according to the manufacturer.
so all you have to do is get your inspector to go to amazon.com. well alright that might not work but even moving up to an T-H which is their condensing model and says on the Takagi site it is rated for heating is going to be half the price of the knight.
e.g. Tk JR already set up propane for $576
but look the T-H is only $1276
both of those are prime so i'd get them in 2 days for free shipping. don't know what the deal with canada is but both say "This item is also available for shipping to select countries outside the U.S." Don't know if Canada is a 'select' country but since they can ship us oil, hydroelectricty, etc., i'd think we could ship a couple 50 lbs. boilers up there. if anybody has got it worked out Jeff Bezos
probably does (if he's not busy in davos or somewhere).
and the takagi's are small and hang on the wall so you would have space for a transfer tank to isolate the tubing, although i think the heat exhanger is probably close to as resilient as stainless steel, but i believe they use copper, like the heatmakers. i always like that myself. you could melt the heat exchanger with no flow, but they got their flow safeties worked out and it was off to the races.
i'll get back to you with whatever takagi tells me about 'certification' for heating applications.
@ November 2, 2013 10:48 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?. . . I'm not saying that is me but aren't any of you other guys trustworthy.
don't know why someone wouldn't ship to canada -- maybe the shipping wouldn't be free but. are we having a trade war? WTF.
@ November 2, 2013 6:55 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?pexsupply.com $2548 for 44K knight
don't know what you were getting. but i bet they would ship to canada, and you're looking out 6 months. . . I don't think that is a particularly attractive price for a boiler, but i'm a stick in the mud and they are usually pretty good on price. what were you running into up there?
you know that my view is get a space heater for a backup, get it approved, get your bulk propane and then go back to the hot water heater for the warm floor.
@ October 30, 2013 12:08 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?yeah, as to space heating -- it depends. the 22,000 i bought is made to mount on the wall or free stand has standing pilot no vent and normally retails around $275 or $300 bucks i think.
if i were thinking longterm backup might think about a small vented model, but i was sensitive to the money it looks like he is about to expend. ironically, if he bought the back up and installed it and ignored the hot water heater, maybe he could get his delivery service and then get the hot water heater going . . .
i'm not trying to make him reverse field and i think sometimes when you've taken a decision you don't want to be second guessing yourself the whole way but his situation seems to beg for some no electricity needed backup.
@ October 30, 2013 11:46 AM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?I don't think eastman was saying look at other fuels. he was going to the payback form the investment to qualify for bulk delivery.
don't know if you noticed up thread but morpho did reply to my question about propane unit cost involved in these calculations.
he was t about a buck a litre and could get it bulk for 50¢ a litre. that's a pretty steep discount. i'm sure he could split the difference with larger self serve tanks and filling more of them at once, but i got the sense he had considered that and figured that there was an opportunity cost to him assembling a fleet of 100 lbs tanks and undertaking to transport them.
and of course i don't know if he has a car or truck so how many of those he could actually carry before rosco p. coltrane shuts him down etc.
so i think the point was it was $800 a year the way he is doing it and would go down to $400 a year delivered. You figure you could forward commit 5 years of that difference if you acceptin the first place (which i don't*) that there is any decent reason why the inspector should be worried that some guy in the middle of nowhere off the grid wants to use an 'uncertified' hot water heater.
Now i think the $300 maintenance allowance people talk about for modcon would eat that up, but i think that is related to the cost of a serviceman cleaning the boiler and not what you'd expect to spend if you maintain it. Don't know about the servicability and access for cleaning on these lochinvars but i was pleasantly surprised to hear from a long time munchkin installer and serviceman who i met this week that units in propane service are much cleaner and require less frequent prophylactic service. Since even at 50¢ a liter we're paying going on twice as much per btu compared to natural gas around here it is nice to know that we make out it one respect.
*Nobody said the install is unsafe. This certification thing stinks to me like Food and Drug Administration screwing up drug approval processes by not focusing on whether a drug is safe but on trials proving its efficacy for labeled uses. i understand you can even make a case for having some independent , gov. or otherwise, kind of underwriters laboratory stamp of the appropriateness of a product for certain uses. But the comingling of govt. regulation against the products use for off label with its safety regulations is a bad precedent.
So without the UL label you can't be disappointed if the thing doesn't last as long as you were hoping and maybe you can't make a warranty claim for a new tank if you have had it in heating service. so, if you go into that knowingly, WTF is the problem (i try not to use acronyms as i know i can get left behind when i don't know the latest ones, but i trust it is more polite in this case.)
Honestly, whether with the hot water heater system or the mod-con i would think an outbacker like morpho would do well to have a space heater back-up that uses no electricity anyway.
my 2¢ -- well as usual it looks a little more like my 50¢
geez the friggin math questions to post are getting hard. i had to take off my shoes. i still can't figure out why we need that if folks have an ID and are signed in but guess there isn't too much spam here , if you don't count my posts that is, so maybe it is important