Heating Help

Condensate expected

@ February 16, 2012 1:43 PM in Buderus- Chimney Condensation problems

According to the Installation and Maintenance manual for the GA124, you should have had a condensate trap installed as part of your boiler installation. See page 28 with the big note: "USER NOTE - A condensation trap must always be installed at the flue vent.". So that must be fixed unless what you are calling the "chimney cleanout" is actually this trap.

It sounds like your venting may also not be correct. But if it was wrong and a guy from Buderus came out to look at your system, surely he would have said that. Compare it the to drawings on page 28-29 or post good pictures here.

http://www.buderus.us/files/201001240111130.63040309_GA124InstallationMaintenanceManualSC04-2005%20.pdf

Where is your combustion air coming from?

craigslist

@ February 13, 2012 10:18 AM in build a steam radiator

Do a search on craigslist for steam radiator. Depending on what part of the country you're in, you will probably see a lot of them. There isn't much demand and they are often just picked up for free as scrap metal, so the prices are low. In my experience, you can find just about any style and size if you're patient and willing to keep checking for a few weeks.

I wouldn't

@ February 10, 2012 1:32 PM in boiler seal repair

I had a bad leak in my 1945 5-section Smith boiler that developed in January of last year and I faced a similar problem. I considered putting some type of sealer in it, but decided it could get too much gunk in my pipes that could come back to haunt me once it was replaced with a stainless mod-con (where everyone seems to worry about passage size).

Instead I drained enough water so that the water wasn't forcing its way out, used grinding wheels to rough up the 12" crack, and used quickset JB Weld epoxy. I didn't want to wait for the slower set type. Believe it or not it worked, and got me through the winter (I had to repeat once when the first patch eventually gave out as the crack moved further). I was lucky the crack was accessible and not between sections.

I prefer Fritos myself

@ January 31, 2012 10:32 AM in How to drain boiler without a floor drain

When you hook up the hose, put a shutoff nozzle on the other end like you're going to water the garden. Open the boiler drain, then open the garden nozzle into the sink or a bucket. Once it is flowing well shut off the nozzle. The hose is full of water at that point, pre-primed and ready to go. Now run the hose out the window and low enough to be below basement floor level. Open the nozzle and start watering your lawn with the boiler water. Wave to the neighbors when they wonder why you're watering your lawn in January.

out the window ..

@ January 30, 2012 12:33 PM in How to drain boiler without a floor drain

If your house is on a hill, you can run a garden hose from the drain at floor level, up and out a cellar window, and then down the hill till the hose end is lower than the basement floor level. That's how I do it - no pump needed.

new pipe

@ January 23, 2012 6:10 PM in Take out slantfin fintube - put in c.i. baseboard and radiators?

Thanks, but I don't want to try to connect to the old pipe for a couple of reasons. Mainly that they added a very large family room, so the existing steel pipe which was mostly removed may not be the correct size anyway, plus I have no idea how to balance the new with pipe sizes, etc.
On the other hand, I have a zone (with dedicated circulator) for the fintube all ready to go, and those pipes run exactly where I need them to go. So it would be easy for my plumber to swap out the fintube with the new baseboard and radiators.
I've done the EDR calculation already and will match that - but I want to make sure its OK to run a continuous loop (like the fintube) and that the venting will be correct.

Take out slantfin fintube - put in c.i. baseboard and radiators?

@ January 23, 2012 5:27 PM in Take out slantfin fintube - put in c.i. baseboard and radiators?

Most of my house has 100 year old cast iron radiators, but a rehab in the 1980's put a new family room addition onto the house and removed a couple radiators from the adjoining kitchen and bath. This zone is now all heated with about 50 feet of fintube baseboard. I would like to put cast iron baseboard and radiators back into this zone. The zone is piped completely separate from the rest of the house with a separate circulator, and the zone is currently all fintube, but I plan to take out all of the fintube and replace it with cast iron Baseray baseboard and radiators. A couple questions:
1. Can I assume it is OK to use a single long pipe run for the combination of Baseray and radiators? I know the emitters closest to the boiler will get hotter sooner, but am thinking it worked with the fintube so should probably continue to work (especially since except for the bathroom, the rooms in this zone are open to each other without doors so heat circulates easily). I will pay attention to the EDR of the different rooms in the zone and keep it the same.
2. Can I assume that I need vents on the radiators only, and not on the long run of Baseray (I have a separate purge valve for this zone in the basement)?

Thanks, but

@ January 23, 2012 12:08 PM in Wall-mount radiator install?

I'm not a welder - I couldn't put that many parts together and make it work. I have no trouble cutting and grinding metal however. Maybe I could refashion something like a shelf bracket?

nozzle size

@ January 20, 2012 6:37 PM in Nozzle choice, what's better in my situation?

There shouldn't be any noticeable difference in how soon they clog. The .85 is putting out more oil and will cause a bigger flame. You should stick with the nozzle that your burner was last adjusted to, since changing the nozzle size without adjusting the pressure, etc. could make the flame burn worse (too big, too small, too dirty, etc). If you're going to start changing your own nozzles, you should get the equipment and expertise you need so you'll know when you should call a pro in. Throwing away efficiency at today's oil prices doesn't make sense.

Wall-mount radiator install?

@ January 19, 2012 11:52 PM in Wall-mount radiator install?

I have a wall-mount steam radiator that I am thinking of converting to use with a hot-water system.

Does anyone know where to get brackets to mount it to a wall? Hopefully a couple inches out from the wall so it could be used as a towel warmer?

(pictures attached)

Similar

@ January 19, 2012 11:37 PM in Low Delta T between boiler Supply and Return

I had a similar question with a newly installed Alpine210 - link here which you might find interesting: http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/139467/The-best-Delta-T-for-a-mod-con

I have two zones in my 100+ year old house; one is an over-radiated cast iron radiator zone, and the other 50 feet of slantfin baseboard. Like you, I concluded that the pump that Burnham supplied with the boiler is larger than it needs to be. I have less than 10 feet of copper pipe in my boiler loop, way less than the 75 feet the pumps are specified for. I get a 20 degree delta T when both zones are calling, but only about 5 degree delta T when the slantfin zone is calling by itself.

You said you are getting 4-6 degree delta T - do you mean that you are getting 6 degrees when ALL the zones are calling at the same time? It would be interesting to test this if you haven't already.

wood burning stove

@ January 6, 2012 11:58 PM in Amish

The only Amish house I've been in had a big Franklin-type wood burning stove going in the kitchen. They sold maple syrup from their house and didn't have any conveniences - it was like stepping into the 1800's.

Actually the reverse

@ January 4, 2012 9:44 PM in The best Delta T for a mod-con?

I think you missed this in what I wrote above: "The GPM through my primary loop is higher than the GPM through my secondary loops, even when both zones are calling for heat. (Note that I am NOT in the situation AlHeating  assumed of having large secondary circulators). So there is always positive flow through the closely spaced T's."

I have a very large house and *lots* of radiation - about 1200 sq feet of radiation in my radiator zone. My secondary circulator for this zone is quite a bit smaller than suggested in the article here that discusses using circulators in converted gravity systems: http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/343/Circulators/238/Sizing-Circulators-for-Hot-Water-Heating-Systems.

Which is why I keep coming back to reducing the size of my primary circulator.

You said: "Just make sure you maintain adequate minimum flow through the boiler." How do I know this? Is it sufficient to check the delta temperature? If not, how do I measure the flow I am getting?

Wow, thanks for all the replies

@ January 4, 2012 6:01 PM in The best Delta T for a mod-con?

I'm sorry I didn't post more info about my situation, since several posts made reasonable assumptions that aren't true in my case. I'm sorry if I led you astray, but let me try to set the record straight and make sense of everyone's replies. Please don't be offended if I get it wrong - and if I do please let me know!!

I think everyone agrees that increasing the system delta T will improve the mod-con efficiency. System delta T here would be the temp that the boiler sends out versus the temp that returns to the boiler. Boilerpro quoted the equation that makes sense to me and that shows why this is true - namely that when flow decreases, delta-T increases since they are inversely proportional.

The question is how to achieve increasing system Delta T  in a primary-secondary piped system.

Let me start by saying that my mod-con came with an outdoor reset sensor that is connected since that was suggested in a couple posts. And it is with this sensor in operation that I'm seeing the 20 degree delta T. I'm not sure what a "system sensor" is that AlHeating referred to - was this another name for the outdoor sensor or is this what is called a "header sensor" in the Alpine manual? The Alpine manual doesn't say why or when to use a "header sensor" - is this really useful for increasing system delta T (which is my goal) and if so how would it be connected?

One other suggestion was to increase my emitter EDR - but my house has old cast iron radiators that have more than enough EDR and I'm not realistically able to change that.

So the purpose of my post was to suggest that decreasing the GPM in the primary loop would be another way to accomplish this. First of all, note that I am currently seeing a 20 degree delta T with the circulator that was supplied with my boiler. But the Taco011 circulator is larger than the manual led me to believe it would be (since they changed it after printing the manual) - and I think it is larger than it should be. The reason I think this is true, is that the GPM through my primary loop is higher than the GPM through my secondary loops, even when both zones are calling for heat. (Note that I am NOT in the situation AlHeating assumed of having large secondary circulators). So there is always positive flow through the closely spaced T's. If I am able to reduce this positive flow through the T's by decreasing the GPM through the primary loop then there will be less water freshly out of the boiler that immediately returns back to the boiler, and more of this freshly heated water that will instead go through my secondary loops. Therefore my return temperature should be lower and therefore my delta T should be higher.

I hear the concern about making the primary loop circulator too small, and therefore making the delta T too large. The Alpine manual states that a delta T between 20 and 35 is fine. Would it be reasonable to try different circulators until I find one that will get me to a 35 degree delta T? Or should I be cautious of this - do I need to measure actual flow or is using measured delta T sufficient - or is there some other way to accomplish this? (I'm not crazy about the idea of removing a brand new and expensive circulator from my system to replace it with another brand new and expensive circulator if there is some other option).

Thanks again for all the input

They changed it

@ January 3, 2012 7:51 PM in The best Delta T for a mod-con?

The manual that came with my boiler still says the Taco014, but they included a supplement to the manual along with the Taco0011. I think I would have been better off with the 014, but even that would have only given me a 25 degree delta T if my numbers are correct. I *really* wish they had included the Grundfos so I could try the different speeds, but unfortunately they didn't.  By the way, the manual is also incorrect about the Grundfos setting - it should be at speed 2 and not speed 1 to get 25 degree delta T.

The best Delta T for a mod-con?

@ January 3, 2012 7:07 PM in The best Delta T for a mod-con?

My Alpine is installed and working, thanks to the great plumbers I ended up with who did a great job.

There is one thing that bothers me a bit. The pump that was included with my Alpine 210 boiler for use in primary loop is a Taco011. My installation is almost exactly as shown in the manual, with less than 10 feet of 1-1/4" copper pipe in the primary loop (plus 4 elbows, two T's, pump with integrated flow check plus ball valve flanges ) - in other words there is very little resistance to flow. When I figure the head loss for the primary loop and where that crosses the Taco011 pump curve, it indicates I should expect a 20 deg delta T. And indeed this is what my system is seeing - 20 degree delta T.

The boiler is specified in the manual to run from 20 to 35 degree delta T. So it is within spec and I'm not having any trouble. But wouldn't my system be running more efficiently if I put in a smaller primary pump so that I got an increased delta T? I can tell by using my hand that even when all zones are calling for heat that there is positive flow through the primary loop T's.

In general I guess I'm asking whether it wouldn't be better for a mod-con to operate at a higher delta T? Doesn't that increase the amount of time in condensing mode and improve efficiency?

Thanks for help

@ January 3, 2012 4:08 PM in Where do I put outdoor reset (besides outdoors)?

I ended up finding a good location for the sensor; its a dozen or so feet from the intake and vents. Instead of using the closet as I originally intended, I put it several feet above a doorbell switch on an open back porch. I was able to use the doorbell wire plus a snake to pull my wire into position. That took almost as much time as connecting the boiler and circulators (I did my own electrical).

Man, it's nice to have heat!!!

How far is that?

@ December 18, 2011 9:09 PM in Where do I put outdoor reset (besides outdoors)?

Thanks for the answers. But "as far away as possible" isn't realistic since I only have one closet that allows me to come out more than a foot above ground level.. How many feet away MUST it be?

It will be on the North - but where?

@ December 18, 2011 8:49 PM in Where do I put outdoor reset (besides outdoors)?

The North wall is also the wall that the Alpine is venting out of. Vents are seven feet high (went through a first floor closet), so that is where I would like to locate the sensor.

But how far away from the vents should I place the sensor?

Where do I put outdoor reset (besides outdoors)?

@ December 18, 2011 8:37 PM in Where do I put outdoor reset (besides outdoors)?

My Alpine mod/con install is nearing the home stretch. Gas meter will be installed tomorrow. One remaining question before starting it up- where should the outdoor reset sensor be located?

Putting it right next to the vent/air inlet would be the easiest, but how far away should it be to avoid interference with the vent output?

Lots of dirt eaters

@ December 14, 2011 9:51 PM in HELP with flushing system overnight?

I'm installing two Y strainers on the radiator zone plus a spirotrap on the boiler return so I'll have plenty of chances to collect whatever's left. I'll have more invested in dirt collection than I do in circulators. But I want to get out as much of the dirt as I can now, especially since the Y strainers aren't easy to flush out.

I got advice before to make sure I flush the system really well, and this is my chance to do it. But it isn't as easy as it sounds, and I couldn't find any advice on what to do. The circulator I have on it (007) was used before and was enough to heat the whole house, but it won't do more than the new circulator.

When I run water through the system it comes out looking clean, though it is dirty when it drains down.  Maybe I should just partially fill and drain a couple times?

HELP with flushing system overnight?

@ December 14, 2011 4:15 PM in HELP with flushing system overnight?

I've gotten advice here on a boiler install (for which I'm most grateful), and need advice for flushing my radiator zone on an old gravity system. I'm installing a stainless mod-con and need to get as much crud out of the system as possible.

We added temporary couplings and hose connections to the supply (at top left), return (bottom after the circulator), and water supply (top right). Before we added the circulator we ran it for about half an hour and the water coming out of the return was clean, but then when we drained it down it was looking pretty murky so I figured it needed a better scrub, maybe with a circulator pump this time to cycle it?

If this was your setup, what would you do to best clean it up? I have 16 hours to work with.



Thanks!