Simply Rad
Joined on November 25, 2003
Last Post on April 5, 2012
Recent Posts
No need for supplemental heat
@ January 10, 2010 10:52 AM in Why I chose to use radiators and not underfloor radiant
With 29 btus/ft2 at design conditions you will not require supplemental heat. The floors will be adequate. Instead of Taco controls why not use true constant circulation with non- electric comfort dials. Oventrop has treated me well for years. Simple and effective. Customers even complement on the simplicity and comfort!"the ultimate in comfort and efficiency"
Jeffrey
170F supply temp?
@ January 9, 2010 7:53 PM in Why I chose to use radiators and not underfloor radiant
29 btus/ft2 = 170F that's way too hot. I agree with ME Warmboard is the sh*t. The charts I am looking at show that at 29 btus/ft2 and R-1 for hardwood with a supply temp of 115F. and that is using 70F room temp. If you are using constant circulation control you can reduce that supply temperature by 10%. On average I find that the Warmboard systems operate in the 90F range most of the time. That mod/con boiler is just drooling thinking about it. Quicktrak really 170F? The biggest thing to overcome I find with high efficiency radiant are floor coverings.Same load of 29btus/ft2
R .5 Tile floor=100F
R 1 Wood flors=115F
R1.5 Great carpet choice=128F
R2 Good carpet choice= 145F
R2.5 Poor carpet choice=157F
R3 BAD Carpet choice= 168F
Anything else I do not care about because the boiler we use is limited to a supply of 167F
So basically you start at 95%+ (tile and harwoods) efficiency and end at 87% +/-(bad carpet) for boiler efficiency.
I begin the flooring choice topic during the initial meeting with the homeowner.
Jeffrey
Would that be nice
@ January 8, 2010 10:36 AM in Why I chose to use radiators and not underfloor radiant
Glad to see that your load is not that big. Like I said earlier my largest room load was 50 btus/ft in a log home great room with cathederal ceilings, dormers and lots of glass. Lots of air infiltration too.I have spoken to manufactures about that size of mod/con. The answer is....that below 15,000-18,000 btus its hard to stablelize the flame.
I had -29F this morning, I normally use -20F for design. I clocked my meter and I was around 25,000 btus. Though my meter dials were slicky and jumping instead of just turning. When its that cold nothing seems to work right, especially my fingers. Anyways, I have a 18,000-80,000 mod/con. I find that it short cycles until the OT drop below -5. At that point it purrs like a kitchen. I have not done anything yet but someday I would like to add a buffer tank. Still it works great and keeps the house very comfortable and uses very little gas.
I would stick with a mod/com. I have found anything else may give you troubles.
Jeffrey
I agree its a HUGE load
@ January 7, 2010 8:57 PM in Why I chose to use radiators and not underfloor radiant
The largest load I have come across was 50 btus/ft2 with a log home greatroom and a design temp of -20F.I would look at the calcs again. Then I would look at upgrading the insulation package and windows to higher R vaules. Reduce your load and use low temp radiation.
Jeffrey
No wool rugs just a down blanket!
@ January 7, 2010 8:38 PM in Glass tile and radiant floors
I have been getting on the interior decorators about carpet, but recently I have had to get on them about the padding under the throw rugs. Details are hard to keep up with sometimes. Tonite we have design conditions or even below. We are looking at 20-30F below zero. I am sittings here in my kitchen right now its -9F the Vito is running at 118F and I am soooooo cozy! Warm thougthsJeffrey
Radiant floor
@ January 6, 2010 2:36 PM in Glass tile and radiant floors
METhe tile is layed over Thermofin U plates and is the master bathroom floor.
Thanks for the input
Jeffrey
Glass tile and radiant floors
@ January 6, 2010 12:15 PM in Glass tile and radiant floors
Hello allI am working on an arcitects home and its been an adventure to say the least. All form and no function. I am fighting for the good guys the whole time. Just got word that the master bath is going to have glass tiles. I am not sure if I have ever used this product and feedback would be appreciated. Stay warm
Jeffrey
Modern hydronics
@ December 28, 2009 8:20 PM in Newbie here with some questions
The RPA is a great place to start for education for radiant heating. The offer many classes and online trainings. Lots of great books too.Also, I think John Seigenthalers (?) Modern Hydronics is an excellent resource.
http://www.hydronicpros.com/publications/index.php?id=24
Jeffrey
Happy Holidays
@ December 24, 2009 2:24 PM in Merry Christmas Everyone!
Peace, love, health and happiness to all!Good luck in the new year
Jeffrey
Heat loss
@ December 24, 2009 2:22 PM in Design a simple system
As said before do the heat-loss and then design the rads around your loads. The heat loss will dictate your flow-rates. Generally speaking the rads require low flow rates. You might be able to pipe the system exactly as your drawing. First look at the boiler's specs on flow-rates vs pressure drop. If you can,size the circulator for both the boilers specs and the rads together. As you know the boiler have certain flow characteristics as do the rads, BUT in simple cases you might be able to get away with just the primary loop. Normally we use a low-loss header to separate the boiler from the distribution system. But in simple systems we can get away with a system like your drawing. Just do the math.If the trinity has a boiler sensor then install it just downstream of our DP(differential pressure) pump.
One more thing about mod/cons.....They require maintenance and service! They can burn efficient and clean if they are maintained. Also, service is being proactive instead of reactive.
Happy Holidays
Jeffrey
Troublehooting 101
@ December 23, 2009 8:17 PM in Mixing Demand on Tekmar 361
I always try to look for the obvious or unobvious. You also should check the heating demand signal, being your thermostats, zone controller and thermostat endswitchs. Something maybe sending a signal for no good reason, or you could have a short in your control wires.Jeffrey
almost there
@ December 23, 2009 8:04 PM in Design a simple system
Why not take it one step father and over size the rads for a 140 degree supply during design conditions. That Trinity will be spitting the condensate out and saving of $. That way you can spend more time at that vacation home. I am not sure about Trinity but the mod/con we use has the ability to turn the system up and down(home and away) with a phone dialer...perfect for a vacation cabin. The phone dialer even has a sensor for freeze protection. We have also had great luck with differential pressure pumps with this type of continuous circ system and TRVs. We have used both Wilo Stratos and Grundfos Alpha.The systems are incredibly simple, comfortable and efficient.
Happy Holidays
Jeffrey
ME for hydronic president!
@ December 23, 2009 5:01 PM in When is Delta T for heating not a true Delta T??
Through out the years I have found those who do not understand tend to bad mouth.ME I can't thank you enough for all your knowledge and experiences!
Hail to hydronica.
By the way this site it designed to help and not harm.
Happy Holidays
Jeffrey
Naked(without plates) staple up SUCKS
@ December 21, 2009 11:46 PM in Staple up radiant
Its a cheap imitation and its even harder to do it a second time(when it does not work). so do it right the first time ad use heat transfer products such as plates. Radiant floor heating is the "ultimate in comfort and efficiency" when done right.Simple and easy install
@ December 13, 2009 11:15 AM in training? We don need no steenkin training!
Drives me crazy when I hear that cuz nothing is simple to install, and why should it be if it provides years of operation. Quality takes time! I think you have to be careful with something that pushes the ease of install, come on that install took 2 1/2 minutes. You could install one system a day and then retire next year....who cares about or needs service. Like ME said try replacing the inverter when it goes is no SIMPLE AND EASY job.The thing that sticks out most to me in that video is standing on the panels. Being the manufacturer I might allow it but I would never show it as installation procedure. Next thing you know the crew is going to be eating their McDonald's on the array for lunch.
Jeffrey
DECISIONS, DECISIONS, DECISIONS.
@ December 11, 2009 6:26 PM in Cast iron rads vs. radiant floor...thoughts and opinions?
DougFirst I would asked yourself and especially your wife(?) were you comfortable with the cast iron radiators. Were they in the way of your furniture layout? Next, I would think about the home itself, does it have high heat loss, meaning lots of glass and tall ceiling, because radiant floors may not provide enough heat. Then, I would think about comfort. When you purchase radiant floors you are purchasing "the ultimate in comfort and efficiency". If you simply desire heat then the radiators will work well. Finally, think about what type of heat source you are going to use. New condensing boilers are hot, put perform(efficiency) much better with low temperature radiant floor systems. If, you are looking into a cast iron boiler then I suggest use the rads.
If, you are thinking radiant floors do it right! Do a heat loss calc first. Then use heat transfer plates, gyp or some type of radiant subfloor to distribute the heat. As, I said earlier RF is all about comfort and efficiency. So then, next think about floor coverings. RF works best with tile, stone and woods. You might want to do a combo system and use the existing rads in the bedrooms(with carpet) and RF elsewhere.
Lots to think about but there's a start.
Jeffrey
Reset
@ December 8, 2009 11:56 PM in Radiant Controls
Use a mod/con boiler with outdoor reset. I hope the Burnham has it. Reset is the brain to the whole radian floor system. Think about have only one heat temperature in your car, what would you do in spring and fall......roll down your windows! This is what you are doing with a manual mixing valve, the valve is set to keep you warm in January. The rest of the year its a roller coaster ride, blasting the zone with too high of supply temps, then sit and cool of(air temp and floor temp) then blast again. Think about outdoor reset as the brain's behind cruise control. Modulate the flame, modulate the supply temps and then you can even modulate your flows(now thats another subject). Use outdoor reset to gain efficiency with lower supply temps. Use outdoor reset to gain comfort also with your a consistent floor temperature instead of blasting it with too high of supply temperature most of the heating season. You will not regret it when using the reset. The best part is that most boilers have DHW priority built in. This means that the boiler can operate at low temps most of the time, until the DHW calls and then the boiler will automatically run at higher temps to recover the hot water fastest.Methanol meter
@ November 4, 2009 8:41 AM in Methanol meter
I have been using methanol in my Ground Source Heat Pump Loops and I am considering buying a Methanol meter to ensure the correct concentration. Any suggestions as to which brand?Jeffrey
Altitude
@ November 3, 2009 8:33 PM in Vito Love
WizardThe earlier Vito 100s were not rated for high altitude and LP, which keep us out of the market. We install systems between 7000-9000'. Even with the new Vito 100, you can set it at high altitude, but we still have to fiddle with it for max efficiency and clean burning.
Jeffrey
Soon
@ November 2, 2009 10:18 PM in Vito Love
Soon we will be installing the new 200. Installed our first 100 last week, here in Colorado we did not have the opprotunity for the new 100 to install for it was not approved for high altitude. The 100 was easy, but seems to work well just no whistles and bells. We tried primary/secondary for the first time in awhile, instead of a low loss. Not sure yet. 100 control does not acknowledge the LLH with a sensor, like the 200. But I have been thinking about the hydronic benefits the LLH offers. One thing I thought was lacking was the info the 100 control offers...like what is the OTS, and what is the supply target temp, but maybe it can just be that simple.The new 200 is yet to come. We still have a few more old 200s to install, which is fine with me. I am still learning a lot about the old 200, even after installing 45 of them.
We are another system that is over the top.
3-10 ton heat pumps
2-Vitodens 15-60 boiler
Vitocontrol C (custom control built by KW electronics)
18,000 fts Warmboard radiant floor heating
Chilled water cooing
Fan coils for 2nd stage heating
Snowmelt
DHW preheated with reverse indirects from GSHP
Wilo Stratos pumps with Oventrop comfort dials(non electric wall mount TRVs)
99% done....just that last 1% is the hardest. lots of commissioning
Jeffrey
Vito Love
@ November 2, 2009 8:32 PM in Vito Love
There are many ways to skin a cat.... or in our industry save energy. This summer I took on a boiler replacement job. The existing system was a single temperature RFH with gyp and two 400 btu cast iron boilers. Now here is the key to the story, as with many of our customers this is an absentee homeowner. So when the customer left he simply turn down the t stats. When I walked into the mech room this summer I almost melted, it was at least 100F. So there was lots of energy to be saved. We installed two Vitodens 200 15-60 boilers, which is roughly half the existing boilers inputs. When installing two of the Vitodens boilers a Viessmann cascade control is required(Vitocontrol S).Old system was 180 degree primary loop with DHW, Snowmelt, injection loop with lower temperature RFH. Now we have a 4 temp system. #1 RFH occupied mode based on 68F room temp. #2 RFH unoccupied mode based on 45F room temp. #3 DHW priority 167F and finally #4 external demand for snowmelt at 140F. So when the customer is there the system is at a 68F heating curve, but when they are gone the heating curve is based around 45F room temp.
The icing on the cake is we also installed a phone dialer for the customer to turn up and down the home, the Vitocontrol S is connected with the alarm contacts to call when the boilers have any problems, and there is a temperature sensor for freeze protection.
Two points of my thread. #1 Viessmann has the solutions to saving energy and providing comfort like no other. Anyone, who disagrees does not understand.
#2 There are a lot of ways to save energy other than alternatives, Start with the basics boilers are the first place to start with energy efficiency.
We should all learn from Viessmann's efforts to strive for energy and comfort solutions.
There is a lot of energy to be saved out there so get some.
The last time I checked my blood is still red!
Jeffrey
Guidelines
@ October 29, 2009 6:35 PM in Solar Code: Minimum standards guideline.
I am part of the group Mark is speaking of and I too do not want to have a flash back to the 70s mistakes. I wasn't installing then but I have seen alot of the relix. I feel that we can and must come up with some guide lines, to the control the free for all. This is suppose to be a green thing not a stimulus bonus for installers to jump into. I know in our county the building inspectors have NO guidelines to follow to inspect a solar thermal system. They are use to seeing PEX everywhere else in hydronic systems, so do you blame them for allowing PEX for solar. No one has educated them and this is what Mark is taking about. We can't change the world but when can alteast try to educate the installers, inspectors and architects. Maybe instead of nit picking Mark's ideas we should be trying to work together to better OUR industry.THe one thing I can not stand as of lately is the mechanical engineers design solar DHW. Twice lately I have seen this design where instead of storing the solar energy in the form of potable water and preheating the DHW. They are storing the energy in the form of heating water and pumping the solar energy into the domestic tank heat exchanger lines. So they are not using the solar energy unless the solar tank is hot enough (167-180F) to be used by the heating system suppling the DHW tank. That is alot of wasted energy that is available and not being used. And these are mechanical engineers....imagine what a new solar thermal installer could do???
Jeffrey
