Joined on August 13, 2009
Last Post on December 9, 2013
@ August 30, 2009 10:47 AM in Has Anyone Else Run Into ThisLook at the low water temps and the btu output of this stuff. Consider yourself fortunate to walk into a job and work with something you haven't used before. After reading these post I went to the warmboard site and reviewed their info, I have to say I am impressed with the low water temps. These temps are what is crucial for Geo and solar units. Be thankful it takes someone with your knowledge to finish the job and that the Warmboard people don't do heat loss calcs and more or you may have not even gotten the job. When your finished with the job tell us what you thought about it..
@ August 28, 2009 2:03 PM in ownerRemember the Yukon.be prepared to give your service man a key to the house. The Yukon worked on kerosene, so I was told. But until you have a good source for low sulfur oil, I wouldnt. If you enjoy working with new things, have the right oil, and are willing to put up with the inconvenience(maybe) Go for it. Also figure the payback based on the price of the Low sulfur oil.
@ August 26, 2009 10:51 AM in What Do You Guy`s Think?Thanks Dan, BUT 1 THING, it would be nice if we could see the question as we type our answer. As I get older my memory gets shorter and more selective.
@ August 26, 2009 9:13 AM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetThe reason I say low temperature JD is because some radiant systems run at 140 and higher. Most Geothermal water to water units will only make 120 degree water. That is why when you have radiant installed you look for the system that will give you what you need at the lowest possible water temp. In slab is usually the lowest, staple up being the highest. The efficiency of some of the new air to water systems will be very high also. I believe that if you have a high temp hot water system in the future, and the only way to obtain those temps is with fossil fuel, the cost to operate between a future heat pump and a fossil fuel boiler will become so wide that only a very small percentage of people would retain their water systems unless of course they have low temp radiant.
@ August 26, 2009 8:22 AM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetdoing the math. If the Vito has the same warranty as the cast iron and you really feel its going to last as long, you may be right. What is the warranty exactly on the 100? Maybe I'm wrong but it just seems ridiculous to be burning carbon based fuel for heat when the the ground has all we need. I have a geo thermal w/w and my heating bill is less than the cable bill.I know the new units will have ecm motors and COP,s that will blow us away. I will probably replace it long before its payback period on the boiler it replaced, depends on the price of fuel. I would rather see customers start converting their houses to low temperature radiant heat instead of spending more money on modcons, they are going to get better energy savings and they will be ready to convert to geo when the time comes. If a customer has a 25 year old boiler in decent shape, do you feel his money would be better spent on converting to radiant or spending the money on a modcon? A similar circumstance in my household now, My wife was going to buy a Prius, she drives about 30 miles a day to work and shopping ,whatever. She decided to wait till the chevy volt is available or the Prius has the plug in Lithium. She will then basically not use any gasoline then only on longer trips. I know I know you can always wait, but really this stuff is coming right around the corner. I'm also having a chimney installed in my house for a wood stove because if this whole thing collapses we will still have heat.
@ August 25, 2009 8:44 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetWe can use a Revolution@88%and go through the wall, then add a tekmar outdoor reset and we already have a more efficient way to make domestic with the Navien which will give us the tax credit. Figure it with a Burnham pvg at 85% it doesnt matter. Use a crown boiler. Throw in another thousand bucks, it just isnt there...there is no payback,it makes no economical sense to buy a modcon now. I owe it to my customers to tell them what will cost them less upfront and in 30 years.The federal government cant keep giving this tax break forever. And the tax break is not refundable and is cumuative with many other things. Truth is without a tax break the modcon doesnt even come close to competing. I think when you see these modcons start failing in a few years it will be easy to get people to change back to cast iron. Its just proven to be a great material to make boilers out of. This is probably why they are willing to pay more for a cast iron boiler in Europe than a modcon.
@ August 25, 2009 6:09 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetAs far as the water heater goes, a tankless navien is 98% eff. It is the most efficient water heater made and cost about the same as a indirect, 15 year warranty, will get you the tax credit, no standby loss.
@ August 25, 2009 6:04 PM in TT mod con or Buderus Cast iron with outdoor resetwould be about 1330 therms of gas, gas here is about 1.27 a therm, use would be about 1700.00 a year but it will be less with either new boiler, so lets say 1500.00 a year. Your picking up 7 percent which is 105 dollars a year (we didnt add the cost of running primary secondary pumps on the modcon so it even less) Lets say the modcon goes 15 years and the buderus 30. In 15 years the modcon saved you 1500 bucks plus the rebate1500, and thats if you havent already consumed some of your tax credit on insulation, doors,windows ect. So your at 3000.00 savings in 15 years. Now after 15 years you need a new one. Will the new one be less than 3000.00 No its going to be alot more. There really is no reason to use a modcon that I can see. Check out the new Burnham ES2, cast iron, 110 return temps, lifetime warranty,outdoor reset. American made.
@ August 25, 2009 4:24 PM in Aluminum heat exchangersPeople will spend 30,000 every 10 years on a car, but a car is more than a machine,its an extension of a persons personality(to many anyway). Could you see Vanna White telling someone that behind curtain number 3 is a brand new......boiler. When people hit the lottery they don't say Yeaaaa now I can get that new boiler. Anyone that says that is braindead or one of us. I don't think asking 30 years out of any large home investment is to much. When I buy a roof I go for the 30 year shingle. New windows have 30 years or better warranty. Solar tubes are 30 years and high tech photovoltaic have a 25 year warranty. I think if solar didn't have a 30 year warranty it would be much harder to sell. When I see a boiler like the new Burnham ES2, that will go 30 years+ at 85% vs 2 modcons in the same time. What advantage was the modcon? Nothing moneywise thats for sure. i am sure the people in New England states see a payback faster than people in Maryland but even if the modcon is 95% that only 10%. If they spend 2000.00 a year on fuel they save 200 a year for 12 years is 2400.00 dollars...then what. Another 8000.00 to 10,0000 dollar modcon. This is just my opinion, if im missing some angle please tell me. I sell modcons to but im definatley going to start selling the Burnham.
@ August 24, 2009 1:37 PM in Need advice on Electronic Ignition vs Continuous Pilot for a steam boilerwill automatically close when the pilot goes out Craig. Its been that way for quite some time now, that must have been a really old furnace. The pilot doesn't use that much energy. It will never be enough to off set the discount your getting, maybe 5 to 10 dollars a year if that.
@ August 24, 2009 8:40 AM in Aluminum heat exchangersCarbon filters are for removing chlorine and radon not for co2. Co2 will be removed from your heating system as soon as you run it up to temp it will exit via the air vent, no need to be concerned. Glycol in a system is what starts the problems if its not maintained, it decomposes into glycolic acid and must be checked every year. Also if you have a auto feed valve, turn it off so if there is a leak somewhere you are aware of it.
@ August 24, 2009 7:57 AM in Aluminum heat exchangersA boiler is not a car for several reasons, everyone needs a car, from Texas to Maine, it is just an American fact of life. The car is something Americans embellish, we have car museums, movies about cars, drive in movies for cars, When your young your chances of getting" lucky " are directly related to the car you drive. The largest spectator sport in this country is nascar. We drive them around oval tracks, drag race them, jump them, many of us were conceived in them. I can remember every motorcycle I had since I was 12 and every car since I was 16 They each hold a memory of a special time in my life. As much as we all love this trade, it is our trade and very difficult to talk to people about outside of our small group. That's why we are here. Sure, some of us live in affluent areas where radiant heat and Viessman boilers sell much more easily but I for one don't. I live in Reading Pa, A city that was built back in the 1800s and is probably 50% hydronic. People here are suffering as in many places! Sure we sell Modcons and radiant but it is not the mainstay of my business. Boilers are a commodity for most, No more thought about than the roof. What if your roofer told you after installing a new roof...that should be good for 12 years. Even photovoltaic have a 25 year warranty. OK so if they cant afford the high tech, what happens? They buy the low tech and we all just keep on destroying the planet. Also the people that cant afford their fuel are getting Government help which means you get to help pay for their fuel. I wish I could see your question as I'm writing this post, Its one thing I don't care for in the new Wall. I believe you ask if we tested water, Yes I do, I am also in the water treatment business so I make it a point to test water in every home. Lets me ask you, when you have to fill a new boiler and you have 18 grains of calcium and they have no softner, how do you do it. Honestly.
@ August 22, 2009 5:46 PM in Aluminum heat exchangersthese boilers are about 1/3 the cost they are here, check ebay.uk and while you are there check prices on other commodities just to get a idea. I would say the Europeans have it just about right...About a grand for a boiler that last 12 years. No different than a standard power vent water heater here. Im sure everyone here could live with that. I was looking at the new Burnham es2, cast iron with 110 return temps and 85 % eff. w/outdoor reset. This boiler has a much better warranty and will last alot longer. You will never see a payback on these modcons with new boilers like this. There are people out there like you who will buy them just for the enviroment but we live in a country that has 50 million without health insurance and a home is repoed every 30 seconds... that is not the norm.
@ August 21, 2009 10:56 PM in wall hung boiler for radiantmakes a 98% tankless water heater and also a devise called a heat box so it serves a dual purpose. I havent tried the heat box yet but if it works as well as the tankless it may be just what your looking for. http://www.navienamerica.com/product/boxes_01.aspx?skin=boxes_01
@ August 21, 2009 9:33 PM in Aluminum heat exchangerswhich is just a variation on 316l. I wouldn't say its the strongest. The ferritic stainless used in the Prestige 439 would be a better choice. Neither is the best and both have their faults. Check here and call the metallurgist in the morning, very friendly people [url=http://www.alleghenyludlum.com/pages/products/products.asp]http://www.alleghenyludlum.com/pages/products/products.asp
@ August 21, 2009 5:17 PM in discussing pricing.......Hes always telling us we can advertise here for a buck a day and he has the prices of his books plastered all over the place LOL.
@ August 21, 2009 2:46 PM in Aluminum heat exchangersThe boiler companies themselves require stainless al294c stainless pipe on their near condensing boilers . Why? Aluminum tubing would be a lot cheaper. Ever remove a aluminum chimney liner that's been on a outside chimney connected to a gas boiler for a few years. Looks like Swiss cheese. Aluminum has a lot going for it if your a manufacturer.. Inexpensive, easily castable, easily machined, light weight . Figure the boilers lasting 5 years beyond the warranty...Maybe. There is no payback.
@ August 21, 2009 11:21 AM in Indirect heat lossthings being equal fuel, indirect ,ect. and your correct, if you are replacing a boiler that has to be replaced anyway you have to subtract the difference in price. As for you wanting to pay a little more for the enviroment that you can figure out after it calculates the numbers, that being said, I have to congradulate you on being one of the few over seventy crew that I know that is concerned about the enviroment. Have you always felt this way or just having feelings of guilt after a lifetime of v-8s LOL.
@ August 21, 2009 10:28 AM in Indirect heat losswith a small modcon but what about a 5 section oil boiler? Have you been to Weils website? They have a energy calculator that gives you the payback period for different boilers. Its fun to play with but a big eye opener. Take care Tony
@ August 21, 2009 9:08 AM in Indirect heat lossBut they are comparing the tankless to a standard gas water heater not an indirect. So there is definitely are big difference in cost and installation especially if its a replacement. The price for a indirect is much closer. I would imagine if there are 4 to 6 people in the house, standby loss isn't as big an issue, but the less people that live in the house using hot water, as in my example of 2 elderly people , each one shower every 24 hours starts to consume allot of standby energy. Another problem I see with their test is they said the calcium can block the tank-less. This is true but at least the tank-less has provisions to clean the unit and keep it very efficient to its death as the tank type heater doesn't suffer flow restriction ,it still suffers from decreased efficiency because the calcium builds up on the bottom of the tank, inhibiting heat transfer and raising stack temperature with almost no way to clean it out. The cold water sandwich doesn't bother me and I give my customers a choice, Navien makes a unit that has a circulator and a 1 quart storage tank that remains at temperature( yes there is standby loss but very little) the circulator can be used for recirculating through the piping or turned to recirculate internally, either way on this model there is no minimum flow. I find consumer report articles are not that good. I saw a complaint on their treadmill test where they tested 2 units that were made by the same company and sold under different names. These were identical machines! They gave them 2 completely diff rent ratings.
@ August 20, 2009 10:20 PM in Indirect heat lossI agree the Navien unit is 98% and like you said it only makes the hot water you want at exactly the temperature you want and exactly the amount you want at 98% efficiency. Pretty much the epitome of fossil fuel water heating. I was just thinking about it today, figuring pounds per gallon x temp. But the boiler loss is more than the 5 gallons it holds, its probably closer to its weight in water which would be close to 400 pounds wet, which is a loss of another 48 gallons of water combined with the 40 gallons in the indirect and im sure the boiler is loosing more than 1 degree an hour. This could easily exceed 20,000 btus a day in heat loss. That is a gallon of oil a week. The argument that the heat is lost to the structure in winter is offset by the fact heat is also added the the structure in the summer when it has to be removed so that point is moot. It is very easily possible in a case with an older couple with no kids the heatloss is more than the actual hot water used.
@ August 20, 2009 5:25 PM in Indirect heat losstrying to sway an older couple away from a indirect water heater into a new Navien Tankless. They each take a shower every day in the evening, very little other hot water used. I am trying to estimate the standby loss. A 40 gal indirect will hold 333 lbs of water and at a loss of say 1 degree an hour would be an 8000 btu loss in a 24 hr period but what about the 5 section cast iron boiler? It may hold 5 gallons of water but what about the 300 lbs of cast iron? How many btus is there? Anyone have a way to figure this?