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Joined on August 14, 2009

Last Post on November 16, 2013

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@ November 16, 2013 11:37 AM in Viessmann

First I hear Viessmann pulls out of the AHR show in NYC at Javits Center in January. What? That's in the middle of boiler country in their own backyard.

This week I heard they laid off several people restructuring the sales force with some demotions. Laid off during heating season? Why not just fess up and terminate them? If you don't need them in heating season, you think they have a chance of being called back in January?

What is going on? Reducing their presence in the US?

If Concerned

@ September 11, 2013 3:48 PM in How to wire duct fan to Carrier 58MVC100-20 furnace?

Small residential duct booster fans with shaded pole motors don't draw much but you can use a RIB Relay
120V coil/120v contacts SPDT or SPST or DPST or DPST- all will work
The relay with the override switch is nice for turning fans off

So if you wanted a combi

@ August 12, 2013 4:24 PM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommended

would you go with:
5:1 turndown 125K with a 3 GPM at 77 degree rise domestic flow
10:1 turndown 199K with a 5 GPM at 77 degree rise domestic flow

Depends on domestic requirements right? Both would meet the 40 or 70 K heating requirement

So how important was the accurate heat loss now?

I agree with a heat loss...........................

@ August 12, 2013 1:11 PM in Converting from oil to natural gas - Navien CH210 was recommended

But is somewhat of a moot point if the desire is to have a combi boiler installed.

Not wishing to argue the benefits of a proper sized boiler and an indirect, if a combi is desired, whether it be a Viessmann, Triangle Tube, BAXI, Navien, or whatever, the higher BTU's are there for the domestic to achieve the desired instantaneous water heating.
Again my point is not about the benefits of efficiency, indirect use and whatever but that a super accurate heat loss isn't required, when a combi is 125K to 200K in BTU input potential. At that point whether the home has a heat loss of 40K or 70 K does it really matter?

Is it a true mobile home?

@ June 29, 2013 2:04 PM in Mfg Housing and a boiler....

Read the HUD rules carefully. If its a manufactured home permanently installed then the HUD rules don't apply. However if its got wheels on it, then usually the HUD rules apply meaning sealed combustion and gas field convertible

So can many other tankless brands

@ June 27, 2013 2:06 PM in combine tankless flues

As long as they're serving the same domestic water system

Appliiances come with installation instructions

@ June 24, 2013 8:32 PM in combine tankless flues

Read it!
"The water heater must be vented to the
outdoors as described in these instructions.
DO NOT connect this water heater to a
chimney. It must be vented separately from
all other appliances."
chimney. It must be vented separately from
all other appliances."
"The water heater must be vented to the
outdoors as described in these instructions.
DO NOT connect this water heater to a
chimney. It must be vented separately from
all other appliances."
chimney. It must be vented separately from
all other appliances."
WARNING "For multiple unit installation, a minimum
distance between vent terminations must be maintained to
prevent recirculation of vent gases. Maintain a center-to-center
distance between vent terminations of 19 inches (48 cm) for two
unit installation. Maintain a center-to-center distance between
vent terminations of 21 inches (53 cm) for three or more unit
installation." "For multiple unit installation, a minimum
distance between vent terminations must be maintained to
prevent recirculation of vent gases. Maintain a center-to-center
distance between vent terminations of 19 inches (48 cm) for two
unit installation. Maintain a center-to-center distance between
vent terminations of 21 inches (53 cm) for three or more unit

The life you save may be your own

I will accept that argument

@ June 18, 2013 12:38 AM in Tankless meets Jacuzzi: who wins?

I wasn't expecting 98 degrees as a set point.
The pressure drop of the tankless waterways reduces flow by friction before max fire rate is reached.

But I doubt 120 and 140 settings with blended cold you would see a difference in total fill rate at the same blended temp.

How much time do you need?

@ June 17, 2013 9:59 AM in Tankless meets Jacuzzi: who wins?

First off, the advice of turning up the tankless and mixing in more cold to fill not correct, they cant be used like a tank.
Tankless fire based on GPM and temp rise. All quality tankless units have a water adjustment valve to control flow rate at the desired set point temp. Once they hit max BTU which it surely will it will control the flow rate. So turning up the temp likely will slow the flow rate leaving the tankless, and with the cold mixed in give you the same tub fill rate.  

Just throwing out round numbers, if two water tanks can fill a tub at 15 GPM in 5 minutes, and a single tankless unit fills it at 7 GPM, is 10-11 minutes too long to wait for the tub to fill at the perfect temp?
Unless you have a big GPM flow elsewhere, I wouldn't add extra tankless and all the added costs for the occasional spa tub filling, just wait longer or prepare your tub filling ahead sooner.
And of course the tanks are full of cold water, with a tankless once the tub is done filling, you still have hot water for elsewhere.

Just now?

@ June 3, 2013 12:07 AM in navien and odr?

That's what I posted back on April 27th

But it's not the indoor stat, just a means of setting the curve, as long as DIP switch 3 of 8 is up (on). A external input on R & W is then the call for heat.

Losing battle

@ June 2, 2013 1:27 PM in Buy American

Given that the gas valve on that American cast iron boiler was made in Mexico you have been losing your buy American battle for years.

Sorry but true

How it tends to work

@ June 1, 2013 11:12 PM in Buy American

If you were expecting a manufacturer response, they typically won't here because they have for the most part been instructed by their management not to post responses and be drawn into a potential negative bashing.

The use of lower cost materials to manufacturer equipment can be mostly be blamed on the supply channels. Homeowners looking for a lower price, contractors shopping boiler prices, distributors looking to be competitive and lastly a manufacturer running lean and implementing cost cutting measures in order to move product and stay afloat.

You have no doubt already supported overseas by purchasing products with imported cast iron, sheet metal, controls, tanks, or entire boilers so why should a 3/4 elbow cause so much grief?

With all that said what response were you expecting?

As a product

@ May 11, 2013 11:43 AM in Polypropylene vents becoming the way to go


Chris there are no documents on record of PVC for appliance venting being banned.

However, PVC products in general such as DWV, plumbing and electric conduit has been under review and certain jurisdictions and regulatory no longer allows it or perhaps won't allow it soon. This is because of the toxic fumes from burning PVC. Transit authority for instance doesn't allow it and commercial construction either.

Appliance venting with PVC I suppose will fall under this regulation, but its unfair to say that pvc for appliance venting alone is being banned. That being said, how many city buildings would have pvc vented appliances? Minimal I would say, only some newer modular boiler systems would be affected.


@ May 10, 2013 9:50 PM in Polypropylene vents becoming the way to go

Can you name those about 3 states?
And where it's referenced?

Use the remote

@ April 27, 2013 12:07 PM in navien and odr?

Sounds to me like you unplugged the Navien remote?

A DIP switch disables the navien remote as the room stat allowing a different input such as end switches or a aftermarket thermostat to be connected to R &W on the term strip. However the Navien remote must stay installed and plugged in as its the means of setting and controlling the ODR. If the remote is not plugged in to board, how do you expect to select and set the outdoor reset curve? This is done on the remote in place of a supply or return water temp setting.
Most installations leave it mounted close to the boiler. It will now be the means of dialing the domestic water temp, overriding the board settings.
It's quite simple to do and use.

That would be 149 degree exhaust temperature I speak of

@ April 9, 2013 10:54 AM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

Exhaust temp, not water temp, sorry for confusion

From what I know and hear

@ April 8, 2013 9:35 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

149 degrees operation is the decided limitation. This offers a small buffer.
Bear in mind combustion appliances differ as in some gas burner fans are pre and some are post combustion. The difference is post combustion can usually have a means of more air, dilution and post purge via the fan.

Notice one boiler you are familiar with has a 176 high limit? Coincidence?

If you lived the Plexvent / Plexco Days-

@ April 8, 2013 6:26 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

It wasnt the material that failed
It was, 100% installer error
1. Improper cutting
2. Improper support
3. Improper sealants
4. Using non-UV fittings outdoors
5. Lack of high temp connection adapters
6. Using screws into pipe an fittings
Sounds alot like PVC concerns?
If all installers could read and follow directions and use common sense it wouldnt have happened.


@ April 8, 2013 9:41 AM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

I will never argue with anyone that PVC has its limitations. When the potential temp limit of Sch 40 PVC is reached, then CPVC should be used. And it would be rare, but if the limit of CPVC is reached Polypropylene or approved Stainless Steel venting should be used.

Boiler manufactures that allow PVC under certain conditions, should know and publish their venting requirements. Boilers tend to have more difficulties with the use of PVC because of the mass of the units. Its not usually the problem of temperatures while the unit is running, but when it runs up to higher operation temps then shuts off due to loss of heat signal. This off period when the zone was satisfied but the boiler and its content is at a high temp and the ambient air in the unit migrates to the venting system.

I will use tankless water heaters for example, a residential unit even if set for 140 degrees wont see flue temps over that and will be operating in the 110 degree range.

Manufacturers have temp sensors and can control and modulate their burners. They will use the dilution air to maintain proper flue temps. Now of course a poorly installed boiler system could struggle to hit desired max temp because they are being controlled based on return waters temps and other points which could result in not meeting design load temp operation. But this problem is rare if installation criteria is followed along with the use of outdoor reset. (The higher temps operation is during the largest emitter requirements).

I just chime in on this subject because the uninformed and misinformed tend to use a broad paintbrush on PVC/CPVC venting and I believe it is the polypropylene sales cocktail that they were fed from a manufacturer of that product. Ever listen to these guys? their big sales pitch is how dangerous PVC is. Its a shame that there was one reported case with deaths with PVC venting, but we must remember, it wasn't the product or boiler for that matter, it was the installation. Try running Polypropylene 45' across the basement without supports and when it fails, will polypropylene venting be banned too?

Now we can blame the use of cellular core or foam core pipe as a common denominator. This product gets lumped into the PVC classification and often gets use improperly applied to a appliance. The installation manuals say to not use it but who pays attention to manuals, right? Who is to blame for using foam core? Everyone is, the contractor, and the distributor/supplier. The distributor supplied the pipe with the equipment and the contractor used it. Why do we have foam core? That would have come from the contractor constantly shopping for a lower cost DWV pipe.

For instance I remember when the boiler manufacturers ran around saying how dangerous PVC was. Even better I remember the tankless manufacturers such as Noritz, Rheem, and the others doing the same thing, till they offered a unit that uses it too.

Canada dealt with this years ago, and a very profitable PVC manufacture came up with the idea. Make PVC venting a system, label all the pipe, fittings, cleaner and cement with a system number, raise the costs 400% and call it a venting system. Do we in the US need to do this to assure contractors use the correct materials?

Again a few bad contractors could ruin it for all, but do you really expect those types of contractors to be able to install Polypropylene properly?


@ April 7, 2013 11:25 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

UL has nothing to do with it PVC is tested as a system with the appliance and certified as a venting system by CSA. CSA includes and goes far beyond UL standards. Please check me on this, that's why gas tankless and boilers don't have UL typically because CSA exceeds the UL standards.

Once the system is tested and approved CSA also regulates the installation manual regarding the certified appliance. Rules and guidlines are check and verified.

No regulation agency can regulate if the installer can or doesn't follow the instructions. And can local inspectors do that? In many cases I think not.

I personally have seen numerous polypropylene vent systems stuck into unlined masonry chimneys. So is the PP suppliers or the PP pipe itselfs fault it won't vent and a dangerous condition exists?

Maybe a lot of you have taken the polypropylene pill, and to this day I can't understand why. Whats your fight or motivation in this? but PVC can be used safely as long as the specification and directions are followed. Simple as that. Perhaps the products you promote won't allow, and your frustrated selling against appliance within limitations that can use PVC?

PVC sch 40 pipe specs are readily available from the manufacturers, just ask;
According to PVC Pipe and fitting manufacturers, PVC has the following ratings:

Maximum Temperature: 158°F, 70°C
Minimum Temperature: -13°F, -25°C
Melting Point: 176°F, 80°C
Tensile Strength: 6,500 psi

Please note the real temp is 158 degrees, all the mud slingers and misinformed often throw around 149 degrees, but that's the temp limit with pressure, per ASTM (plumbing). There is no measurable pressure on a cat4 vent system.

A major PVC pipe & fitting manufacturer’s stance on the subject: “At present there is little data available on the safety or durability of plastic pipe products used to vent combustion gases. The ASTM has not addressed this application, and the available data is insufficient for the plastic pipe and fitting industry to develop consensus specifications or guidelines. Equipment manufacturers are most knowledgeable about their own products and are best equipped to determine how their gas-fired heating equipment should be vented.”

Why does everyone keep bringing up the PVC not tested comment, your not entirely right

@ April 7, 2013 7:06 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

How Appliances are Certified

It's the appliance venting system that is certified, not the pipe.
How would you like to go the route of Canada and require ULC S 636 standards which is PVC and CPVC with labels on it and 5 times the price, would that help you with PVC certifications?

Gas fired boilers and water heaters are required to be safety certified by a third party testing agency according to the American National Standards/CSA Standards. Boilers are design certified to ANSI Z21.13/CSA 4.9 and commercial water heaters are design certified to ANSI Z21.10.3/CSA 4.3.
As a part of this certification, the appliance must undergo tests to assure the specified venting system is appropriate for use with the appliance. Each standard includes specific test procedures for Non-metallic venting like PVC/CPVC. The appliance is placed in
a closet and the water temperatures are raised to the highest permissible level. This generates the highest flue gas temperatures. Under these conditions, data is collected to verify the vent material’s temperature limitations are not exceeded.


@ March 25, 2013 2:11 PM in Navian tankless gas water hearer / boiler

Are you confusing tankless water heater products attempted to be used as a boiler (bad) with the combi boiler products from those companies?
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