Joined on August 14, 2009
Last Post on May 11, 2013
@ May 11, 2013 11:43 AM in Polypropylene vents becoming the way to goCheck NYC.gov
Chris there are no documents on record of PVC for appliance venting being banned.
However, PVC products in general such as DWV, plumbing and electric conduit has been under review and certain jurisdictions and regulatory no longer allows it or perhaps won't allow it soon. This is because of the toxic fumes from burning PVC. Transit authority for instance doesn't allow it and commercial construction either.
Appliance venting with PVC I suppose will fall under this regulation, but its unfair to say that pvc for appliance venting alone is being banned. That being said, how many city buildings would have pvc vented appliances? Minimal I would say, only some newer modular boiler systems would be affected.
@ May 10, 2013 9:50 PM in Polypropylene vents becoming the way to goCan you name those about 3 states?
And where it's referenced?
@ April 27, 2013 12:07 PM in navien and odr?Sounds to me like you unplugged the Navien remote?
A DIP switch disables the navien remote as the room stat allowing a different input such as end switches or a aftermarket thermostat to be connected to R &W on the term strip. However the Navien remote must stay installed and plugged in as its the means of setting and controlling the ODR. If the remote is not plugged in to board, how do you expect to select and set the outdoor reset curve? This is done on the remote in place of a supply or return water temp setting.
Most installations leave it mounted close to the boiler. It will now be the means of dialing the domestic water temp, overriding the board settings.
It's quite simple to do and use.
@ April 9, 2013 10:54 AM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward TrialExhaust temp, not water temp, sorry for confusion
@ April 8, 2013 9:35 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial149 degrees operation is the decided limitation. This offers a small buffer.
Bear in mind combustion appliances differ as in some gas burner fans are pre and some are post combustion. The difference is post combustion can usually have a means of more air, dilution and post purge via the fan.
Notice one boiler you are familiar with has a 176 high limit? Coincidence?
@ April 8, 2013 6:26 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward TrialIt wasnt the material that failed
It was, 100% installer error
1. Improper cutting
2. Improper support
3. Improper sealants
4. Using non-UV fittings outdoors
5. Lack of high temp connection adapters
6. Using screws into pipe an fittings
Sounds alot like PVC concerns?
If all installers could read and follow directions and use common sense it wouldnt have happened.
@ April 8, 2013 9:41 AM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward TrialI will never argue with anyone that PVC has its limitations. When the potential temp limit of Sch 40 PVC is reached, then CPVC should be used. And it would be rare, but if the limit of CPVC is reached Polypropylene or approved Stainless Steel venting should be used.
Boiler manufactures that allow PVC under certain conditions, should know and publish their venting requirements. Boilers tend to have more difficulties with the use of PVC because of the mass of the units. Its not usually the problem of temperatures while the unit is running, but when it runs up to higher operation temps then shuts off due to loss of heat signal. This off period when the zone was satisfied but the boiler and its content is at a high temp and the ambient air in the unit migrates to the venting system.
I will use tankless water heaters for example, a residential unit even if set for 140 degrees wont see flue temps over that and will be operating in the 110 degree range.
Manufacturers have temp sensors and can control and modulate their burners. They will use the dilution air to maintain proper flue temps. Now of course a poorly installed boiler system could struggle to hit desired max temp because they are being controlled based on return waters temps and other points which could result in not meeting design load temp operation. But this problem is rare if installation criteria is followed along with the use of outdoor reset. (The higher temps operation is during the largest emitter requirements).
I just chime in on this subject because the uninformed and misinformed tend to use a broad paintbrush on PVC/CPVC venting and I believe it is the polypropylene sales cocktail that they were fed from a manufacturer of that product. Ever listen to these guys? their big sales pitch is how dangerous PVC is. Its a shame that there was one reported case with deaths with PVC venting, but we must remember, it wasn't the product or boiler for that matter, it was the installation. Try running Polypropylene 45' across the basement without supports and when it fails, will polypropylene venting be banned too?
Now we can blame the use of cellular core or foam core pipe as a common denominator. This product gets lumped into the PVC classification and often gets use improperly applied to a appliance. The installation manuals say to not use it but who pays attention to manuals, right? Who is to blame for using foam core? Everyone is, the contractor, and the distributor/supplier. The distributor supplied the pipe with the equipment and the contractor used it. Why do we have foam core? That would have come from the contractor constantly shopping for a lower cost DWV pipe.
For instance I remember when the boiler manufacturers ran around saying how dangerous PVC was. Even better I remember the tankless manufacturers such as Noritz, Rheem, and the others doing the same thing, till they offered a unit that uses it too.
Canada dealt with this years ago, and a very profitable PVC manufacture came up with the idea. Make PVC venting a system, label all the pipe, fittings, cleaner and cement with a system number, raise the costs 400% and call it a venting system. Do we in the US need to do this to assure contractors use the correct materials?
Again a few bad contractors could ruin it for all, but do you really expect those types of contractors to be able to install Polypropylene properly?
@ April 7, 2013 11:25 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward TrialUL has nothing to do with it PVC is tested as a system with the appliance and certified as a venting system by CSA. CSA includes and goes far beyond UL standards. Please check me on this, that's why gas tankless and boilers don't have UL typically because CSA exceeds the UL standards.
Once the system is tested and approved CSA also regulates the installation manual regarding the certified appliance. Rules and guidlines are check and verified.
No regulation agency can regulate if the installer can or doesn't follow the instructions. And can local inspectors do that? In many cases I think not.
I personally have seen numerous polypropylene vent systems stuck into unlined masonry chimneys. So is the PP suppliers or the PP pipe itselfs fault it won't vent and a dangerous condition exists?
Maybe a lot of you have taken the polypropylene pill, and to this day I can't understand why. Whats your fight or motivation in this? but PVC can be used safely as long as the specification and directions are followed. Simple as that. Perhaps the products you promote won't allow, and your frustrated selling against appliance within limitations that can use PVC?
PVC sch 40 pipe specs are readily available from the manufacturers, just ask;
According to PVC Pipe and fitting manufacturers, PVC has the following ratings:
Maximum Temperature: 158°F, 70°C
Minimum Temperature: -13°F, -25°C
Melting Point: 176°F, 80°C
Tensile Strength: 6,500 psi
Please note the real temp is 158 degrees, all the mud slingers and misinformed often throw around 149 degrees, but that's the temp limit with pressure, per ASTM (plumbing). There is no measurable pressure on a cat4 vent system.
A major PVC pipe & fitting manufacturer’s stance on the subject: “At present there is little data available on the safety or durability of plastic pipe products used to vent combustion gases. The ASTM has not addressed this application, and the available data is insufficient for the plastic pipe and fitting industry to develop consensus specifications or guidelines. Equipment manufacturers are most knowledgeable about their own products and are best equipped to determine how their gas-fired heating equipment should be vented.”
@ April 7, 2013 7:06 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward TrialHow Appliances are Certified
It's the appliance venting system that is certified, not the pipe.
How would you like to go the route of Canada and require ULC S 636 standards which is PVC and CPVC with labels on it and 5 times the price, would that help you with PVC certifications?
Gas fired boilers and water heaters are required to be safety certified by a third party testing agency according to the American National Standards/CSA Standards. Boilers are design certified to ANSI Z21.13/CSA 4.9 and commercial water heaters are design certified to ANSI Z21.10.3/CSA 4.3.
As a part of this certification, the appliance must undergo tests to assure the specified venting system is appropriate for use with the appliance. Each standard includes specific test procedures for Non-metallic venting like PVC/CPVC. The appliance is placed in
a closet and the water temperatures are raised to the highest permissible level. This generates the highest flue gas temperatures. Under these conditions, data is collected to verify the vent material’s temperature limitations are not exceeded.
@ March 25, 2013 2:11 PM in Navian tankless gas water hearer / boilerAre you confusing tankless water heater products attempted to be used as a boiler (bad) with the combi boiler products from those companies?
@ March 25, 2013 2:02 PM in Navian tankless gas water hearer / boilerACV/Triangle tube makes some fine products, but to correct you so you dont look foolish later, the Navien CH combi is a boiler with ASME approvals.
@ March 25, 2013 1:31 PM in Dear Homeowner1The Navien CH is an interesting unit, and it shows as it reported to be the #2 wall-hung condensing boiler sold last year in numbers, and its a combi!
You are right there is allot of misunderstanding and misinformation on that unit.
One would be its flow rate versus BTU output. Many contractors are under the belief that it is limited to 50,000 BTU's because of its heat exchanger/pump capability. While its pump may be only 5 GPM, many confuse this with its BTU potential. Direct connected to a heat emitter system, designed at 20 DT, they are right.
However, installed as a secondary loop/system injecting heat into the primary loop/heating system, it goes far beyond the 50,000 BTU's. In fact Ive seen it installed properly handle 125,000 BTU's plus. Allot of contractors are still stuck on the primary/secondary systems that have a loop in and out of the boiler with close spaced secondary tees. This works well in some larger systems but not boilers such as the Navien, Viessmann, and a few others. This is only one of a few types of P/S system designs.
The Navien CH, will hit the BTU firing requirement needed to hit about 6 degrees of control set point before modulating down to minimum fire, This operation can not be compared to a heating system that is on/off on a 20 degree controller.
@ March 25, 2013 11:05 AM in Dear Homeowner1Up until April 2012, the combi boiler classification at DOE was vague. You could certify the combi unit and sell it as a heater in the tankless category. Well that ruling changed things a bit because if you heat the closed system heating water directly, it must be certified as a boiler. Now you could reverse the operation and heat the domestic directly and heat the closed heating side indirectly, as some combi boilers do, but it wont be a "boiler". And it would be disqualified from the boiler classifications and then not be able to participate in the larger boiler tax credits and rebates from Energy Star and the Utilities.
As it has come light lately, the boiler testing procedures for condensing boilers is just a bit flawed. While this is being addressed, the combi boiler classification is still on hold and who knows when work on this will be done. The CA-AFUE rating was developed (Combined Appliance) but its seems to have fizzled out in its infancy. So for the time being, all boilers must be rated on AFUE, which doesn't give the combi boilers in many cases a good efficiency fair shake method of testing. You would think it would have become a priority, as the combi boiler market grew to 15% or so of the overall residential boiler sales last year.
I dont believe there is/was a product difference in the ASME/None ASME Navien combi boiler. It just had to have some waterway material differences and the all-mighty ASME inspector blessing of the heat exchanger before it was assembled, and the required relief valve thrown into the box. This of course adds to the price of the unit that we all must absorb.
@ March 21, 2013 11:39 PM in gastite fittingsOn the yellow jacket gastite, you only remove the jacket back 1/2" from the end. Attach the 2 half compression sleeves. This will leave the jacket inside the nut.
@ March 19, 2013 11:04 PM in Curious!I use Docs to go. It syncs files from desktop to the ipad/iPhone
It also allows running of PowerPoint and modifying and creation of PowerPoint presentations. It's also will create or modify excel, word,
It's great for carrying and being able to email PDFs from the pad or phone.
@ March 19, 2013 1:13 PM in ISH 2013I recognize the colored cubes. Building 9.2?
That floor is always like 90 degrees, not sure how they can work in their suits.
@ March 19, 2013 11:16 AM in ISH 2013Most of them are Microgen free piston type (Stirling engine).
About 30 -32 KW total heat for most, current objection is they are only 1KW electric production. Difficult to justify cost with our low energy prices. I saw at least 4 on display -Viessmann, Bosch, Navien to name a few. There are some installed and operating in Europe, the challenge for the US, besides 60 cycle AC will be the cost. Probably only valid if subsidized by utility or government.
Chris, did you ever even leave building 8?
@ February 20, 2013 4:06 PM in Tankless CoilMonitor the outlet temp of the coil with different fixtures on, and if there is a thermostatic mixing valve watch that too.
More than likely since it doesnt happen when shower is being used, the shower, especially if its a cartridge type is bypassing cold water to the hot side because of a worn cartridge. It does that because the hot side has a lower pressure due to the tankless coil pressure drop.
@ February 18, 2013 11:35 PM in NG Combi Boiler versus indirect tank and boiler setupBob
Your 5 GPM, 50,000 Btus is correct if directly connected to unit.
Take a look at ther optional manifold, I've seen 110,000 btu + jobs, 180 degree installs working fine. Actually they can put out more Btus because they only modulate down at about 6 degrees from setpoint, staying on longer than a on/off 20 DT boiler.
@ February 17, 2013 10:44 PM in garden hose for gas lineGennady
I don't think it was meant to offend you
It was about how could someone that can't read or write English pass a license exam.
It wasn't about you who can read OK, but write English better install equipment properly.
@ February 17, 2013 2:32 PM in HDE a? on p/s on navienNote a boiler with an internal/external pump is not always the primary. Many manufactures inject heat into the system. In that case the system piping is the primary loop and the boiler is the secondary loop, potentially lower in flow than the system heating primary loop. The distance is then there to assure reverse flow doesn't happen having hot water recirculate back up the boiler return reducing DT and driving down output and efficiency.
Look Weil McLain has done it for years saying 8-12"
@ February 17, 2013 12:28 AM in HDE a? on p/s on navienI am willing to bet the components or the heat exchangers will not last long.
I'm sure the first component to fail will be the changeover valve that switches the flow from external heating to internal domestic water production. The valve won't take the excessive pressures when changing while the external pumps dead head against it.
It too bad it doesn't need a primary loop. Just the system supply going by below while the CH injects heat into system. I have seen these diagrams on naviens site, different than what's in the install manual ( much easier)