Heating Help

A while back I ran into this

@ February 7, 2012 4:21 PM in Mod Con common venting question...historical police!

with a Historical Society wanting top preserve the outside of the building so the local architect who works with them designed a decorative chase in which the vent terminations could be placed that matched the decor. My friend up in Canada D. Brain Baker once sent me some pictures of vents installed in Canada that fit right into the decor of the building. You can't even tell they are vents.

Are you talking about

@ February 7, 2012 4:17 PM in clocking electronic gas meter

a digital meter or perhaps one with AMR (Automatic Meter Reading). What make is the meter and number on the meter. A picture would also help with a close up of the dial. Is this on a large commercial application?

You have a

@ February 7, 2012 4:10 PM in Renyolds Gas Regulator Leak?

Republic Gyroscopic Conversion Burner with the Reynolds regulator which can be replaced by a standard regulator made today. I strongly recommend you get someone who understands these very tricky burners and has the ability to service and adjust them properly.

Do you have the manuals for the burner?

Do not attempt to rebuild that regulator unless you have been trained to do so and I would venture I am the only one left here in this world who knows how to do it correctly unless there is some old gas man lurking around somewhere.

As one who has

@ February 7, 2012 4:03 PM in Carlin EZ Gas

put in thousands of conversion burners both atmospheric (the old Bryants, Janitrols, Roberts Gordon etc.) I would not put a power burner into a boiler that old. As to barometric it is required to be double swing so as to prevent a back draft from entering the combustion chamber. It has nothing to do with mounting of the spill switch. You can put it just about anywhere you want on the barometric it will work fine.

The insertion of baffling in these old coal boilers requires being professionally trained along with the requirement to build a fire box if it is a dry base boiler or if wet-base at least a target wall with proper "corbeling". This is why a run a three day course on installation, servicing of gas conversion burners. Placement of firebricks is something handed down to us from the old timers who I was fortunate enough to work with three of them who were real pros' Brick placement can get you into trouble if not placed properly and tested correctly.

You seem like you are into something you are not real sure about so stop and get someone involved who has done these conversions. What is your location?

We just had a local

@ February 5, 2012 3:11 PM in CO Incident:

contractor working out of state stying at a Holiday Inn overcome at his hotel along with four of his fellow workers. He died from CO poisoning the cause a pool heater located inside the hotel venting into the occupied area. This is very typical of several Holiday Inns I have visited. The pool heater is in a brick enclosure next to the indoor swimming pool in the very large open area inside the hotel. The vent does not go to outdoors but vents into the large space which probably satisfies code for air change and allowance to vent in that location. But it killed him and one other worker is in critical condition. All of them had to be placed in a hyperbaric chamber.

Ice, does that hotel also have

@ February 5, 2012 3:06 PM in CO Incident:

a gas fireplace in the lounge area? If it does I have stayed there several times. I carry a personal protective CO detector with me all the time. I have pricked up CO at that place several times and alerted the manager. One time they even called the fire department who came and with their detector did not pick up anything so they suggested my belt carried unit was not as good as their detector. I asked to look at their detector and discovered it had not been tested for accuracy for 11 years and the O2 sensor was not working. They put fans in the lobby to dissipate what was an aldehyde odor, the cause was the top burned of the gas valve in the gas fireplace, gas was escaping and had ignited and was impinging on the inside surface of the fireplace. I called the local gas company the next day and they sent a service man who shut the unit down and made it inoperative.

A visit to that same place (very convenient on a trip to Florida for me also). This time I brought my Testo 327 with me as I knew I would be staying there. I walked into an area outside that vents several gas water heaters and picked up 50 to 100 PPM CO in the air as I walked into the area with picnic table located between two sections of the hotel a very confined area. Another visit by the fire department and the local service company. Cause cross contamination from vented flue gases being drawn back into the air intake for the side wall vented water heaters.

That place is a bomb waiting to go off. I do not stop there anymore. I wonder if it is the same place your are talking about.

Is this on a

@ February 3, 2012 10:44 PM in electrode vs pilot assembly vs entire retrofit

White Rodgers Cycle pilot system? If so the what is the number of the gas valve? The 760-56 is the spark for that system unless you have a 36E gas valve then it is a 760-310.

Mike and others

@ February 3, 2012 12:01 PM in Gas pressure and meter readings

I want to thank my good friend Bob Morse (Connecticut Natural Gas Company) for steering me in the right direction on this topic.

If you have a 2009 version of NFPA 54/ANSI Z223.1 National Fuel Gas Code go to page 54-118, 119 and 120 for the formula and also Table A.11.1.1 (revised in the 2009 edition) for a table that gives gas flow rates at 7" W.C.(0.25 psi) 11" W.C.(0.40 psi) and 55.4" W.C.(2 psi). If anyone wants that data and you do not have access to NFPA 54 contact me at gastc@cox.net and I will either fax it to you or for a postal address mail it to you.

I knew I had seen something on this just could not find it so now we know, I am going to actually alter one of my manuals I sell to include this information. So much we needs to know to do this job correctly.

A lot of those old tanks

@ February 3, 2012 11:45 AM in Antique RUDD Water Heater

were lined with "Monel" and they tend to last forever. Another company that made copper tanks that lasted was Trageser, I have a three decker tenement with three old Tragesers that are over 50 years old and still working fine.

Try this testing procedure

@ February 2, 2012 2:13 PM in propane burner won't stay lit

PROCEDURE FOR TESTING


THERMOCOUPLES


 
I am often asked about troubleshooting a thermocouple on gas systems. This will be a permanent reference that will give a step-by-step procedure.


 
A thermocouple is a device used to satisfy pilot safety on many 24-volt gas systems. The thermocouple is a device made up of two dissimilar metals. They are joined together at the tip (Hot Junction). When heat is applied to that hot junction a small millivoltage is created. This develops because of temperature difference between the hot junction and what is called the cold junction. The flame has to envelop the upper 1/2" to 3/8" of the thermocouple and the tip should glow a "dull red". If the flame is adjusted to a sharp flame it will glow "cherry red" this will cause the tip to be welded and eventually the thermocouple will fail. The flame should be adjusted to a soft blue flame, not roaring or lifting. The normal millivolt output is 25 to 35 millivolts, on some you may even get up to 35.


 
The other part of this safety pilot system is the electromagnet (power unit). It is if you will the LOAD and we can say the thermocouple is the SOURCE. The electromagnet is made up of a coil of wire and "U" shaped iron core. When the thermocouple is heated and the millivolts generated the coil will be energized and create a magnetic field. The magnetic field will cause the "U" shaped iron core to be magnetized; it in turn will hold open a seat allowing gas to pass through.


 
When this system malfunctions it typically causes the pilot to go out and the gas will not flow. The first thing that should be done when arriving at a pilot outage situation is to do some visual checks.


 
1. IS THE PILOT LIT?
2. IS THE PILOT CLEAN? (NOT YELLOW)
3. IS THE PILOT HITTING THE UPPER 1/2 TO 3/8 OF THE THERMOCOUPLE?
4. ARE CONNECTIONS TIGHT?
5. IS TIP DAMAGED?
6. IS THE COLD JUNCTION BEING HEATED BY THE PILOT OR MAIN BURNER FLAME?


 
Once those things are addressed it is a good idea to take some millivolt readings. It should also be mentioned that many times it is the policy of some to replace the thermocouple on a call and clean the pilot. It is not a bad thing to do, however it is statistically about 85% of the time it is the thermocouple giving the problem. It is the other 15% of the time that taking readings can solve other problems.

 
 
You need a multimeter with a DC volt scale, as the millivolts generated are DC volts. There are four readings we are going to take they are:


 
OPEN CIRCUIT - this is taken with the thermocouple disconnected and the meter leads attached to the outside of the thermocouple and the other meter lead attached to the tip of thermocouple. The pilot-on-off knob will have to be held manually to take this reading. This measures the output of T'couple the readings must be above 17 to 18 millivolts.


 
 * CLOSED CIRCUIT - This measures the millivolts used by the coil in the electromagnet. A rule-of-thumb is this reading should be roughly half of the open circuit. It is taken using an adapter screwed into the magnet and the thermocouple screwed into the adapter.


 
CLOSED CIRCUIT LOAD - This reading is taken the same as the previous reading except the burner is now on. With a proper flame this reading should be about the same as the previous reading. With a lifting main burner flame or excessive drafts or chimney pull, this reading may reduce from previous reading (flame being pulled away from the thermocouple). With the cold junction being heated this reading may increase. If the "cold junction" is heated excessively it will break down.


 
DROP OUT - This is the final reading. It requires the pilot to be blown out. It measures the ability of the magnet to hold under reduced MV input. A good unit should drop out below 6 MV's - normal is 1 to 2 MV's. The allowable "drop out" time is 180 seconds yes three minutes. It is more likely to be a minute and half to two minutes. There will be an audible "click" when the magnet shuts down.


 
* THE CLOSED CIRCUIT READING REQUIRES A SPECIAL ADAPTER THAT SCREWS INTO THE MAGNET ASSEMBLY TO ALLOW CONNECTION OF THE METER. AN ADAPTER CAN BE PURCHASED FROM ANY ROBERTSHAW DEALER THE PART NUMBER IS 10-038 THERMOCOUPLE TEST ADAPTER.

 
A normal set of readings


 
OC- 30 millivolts
CC- 15 millivolts
CC(load) -15 millivolts
DO- 1 millivolt


 
The best way to be able to diagnose these readings is to use MILLIVOLT CHARTS these can not be displayed here but I can provide them if you e-mail me.


 
Thermocouples from different manufacturers vary as to their dependability. The only thermocouples I recommend are made by Johnson Controls. The K15 and K16 series are the best. If you are having durability problems then use the K16RA, which is a nickel-plated high ambient or corrosive environment thermocouple. The Husky (K16) will fit most applications and for those that it does not the Slim Jim (K15) will fit.

 
To repeat the adjustment of the pilot flame to envelope the upper 1/2 to 3/8 of the thermocouple is important, the flame should be a soft blue flame not roaring which will cause the tip to glow a "dull red" versus "cherry red".


 
The combustion condition (excessive temperatures) in the chamber is also an issue and this will require a combustion test and draft measurement to insure that excessive temperatures are not being applied to the pilot. In some cases on water heaters it may be necessary to alter the pilot adaptation to get better quality performance. This however should not be done unless you have had proper training.


 
The possibility of the equipment operating in a depressurization environment will certainly lead to thermocouple failure. In addition if the equipment is flued together with a "fan assisted" furnace or boiler this can lead to problems. There are solutions to this also but training is required.


 
The thing that I find is often a problem is the environment in which the equipment is operating. Many times corrosive chemicals and airborne contaminants are being drawn into the air gas mix and a chemical reaction takes place. This again requires attendance at a training session by a professional combustion person to help you to see the various affects this will have.


 
Last of all the failure to put all the doors and covers back in place on equipment. The failure to do this will cause an alteration in combustion air and the flame stability is affected.


 
The design of some equipment is also a problem. When there is high demand for heat (very cold weather) the temperatures that are created in the chamber have an adverse affect on the pilot and thermocouple system. The addition of the K16RA thermocouple can offer some assistance toward extending the life of the thermocouple in this situation.

 
Insufficient air for combustion and dryers operating in close proximity to equipment also lead to problems.


Have a combustion analysis done with an electronic analyzer.


 
Last of all and this is not directed at any one in particular but just plain lack of service personnel and installers knowing what they are doing.


 
My book "Circuitry and Troubleshooting" Volume II addresses many of the things in question here.
 

Yes Paul

@ January 31, 2012 12:15 PM in utica gas boilers burning up thermocoupling

that is the correct procedure for testing the "open circuit" output of the thermocouple. The entire procedure is available here by going to "RESOURCES/LIBRARY" above and then look for Tim McElwains Closet.

Is this an oil

@ January 30, 2012 4:57 PM in utica gas boilers burning up thermocoupling

boiler converted to gas? If so what conversion burner does it have?

As far as the thermocouple glowing "cherry red" hook up a millivolt meter to the thermocouple and then adjust the pilot gas so it glows dull red, this will give you about 30 millivolts. Better than a "Husky" get a Jonhson (Baso Gas Controls LLC now)K16LRA nickel plated high temperature thermocouple.

No they are

@ January 29, 2012 1:50 PM in Powerpyle

not avaialble but I can fax you a procedure for changing them over contact me at gastc@cox.net

Happy Birthday Dan

@ January 27, 2012 12:39 PM in Happy Birthday Dan Holohan

it only gets better as the years go by, it must be the grandchildren that helps us to grow old gracefully. It is all that hugging!

I assume they

@ January 25, 2012 10:58 PM in LP gas valve

are testing after the second stage regulator with a water manometer located at the gas valve inlet or as close to it as they can get? They have pressurized the line then taken a little pressure off the line and isolated it away from the second stage regulator. How long does it take for pressure to drop?

What is the make and number of the gas valve they are changing?

Has anyone soaped the orifices when this testing is being done to see if they bubble? I would also soap the gas valve to see if there are any bubbles.

I typically do not recommend

@ January 25, 2012 12:02 PM in 1920's richardson boiler

boilers or furnaces as I am involved with doing training on all of them and want to remain friendly with all the manufacturers.

What I suggest is to go above to "Find a Contractor" and get hold of a good contractor who can give you everything you need to know about replacement. There are many very good Modulating/Condensing boilers available so that is the direction I would go. A heat loss being done and a measure of radiation in the dwelling needs to be done so oversizing is not done or if the existing unit is over-sized it can be corrected with the new install. Windows and insulation are a must before even considering a boiler that way you target the boiler size to the actual heat loss of the dwelling. The boiler output (not input) should match the heat loss of the dwelling as close as you can. Also adding ODR (Outdoor Reset) will add to the more efficient operation.

What is the

@ January 25, 2012 11:48 AM in Pennco Natural Gas furnace BANGING

make of Zone Valve, some valves require a correct direction of flow, in other words it could have been installed backwards. In other cases it could be the CV (GPM flow) rating was ignored and the wrong opening on the valve is installed.

For what orifice size

@ January 24, 2012 7:25 PM in Burner output at various gas pressures....

are you looking for?

I use a Bryant Gas Orifice Calculator it goes from .5" W.C. up to 15" W.C.it has a catalog number of MP-5706B, it also includes a pipe size calculator on the other side.

Is it a mechanical noise

@ January 24, 2012 7:21 PM in Pennco Natural Gas furnace BANGING

or is it the gas itself shutting off?

Is this a thermocouple

@ January 24, 2012 11:00 AM in Stewart Warner Corp Winkler G-200N

type pilot? If so go to "RESOURCES/LIBRARY" above and click on Tim McElwains Closet for procedure to test thermocouples along with charts to chart out the readings.

The valve by the way is not a check valve it is a gas valve, probably a pilot safety valve.

Congratulations John

@ January 24, 2012 10:56 AM in Congratulations John Barba...

definitely very deserving of the award.

Paul did you do a combustion

@ January 23, 2012 10:34 PM in pennco atmosheric boilers

analysis on this boiler? If so what did you have for readings, especially draft I am interested in. This could have been a one time thing due to some increased down draft from high winds, then again we really do not know what is going on if we do not test. I have to assume this was a one time thing because you state it has not happened again, that pretty much eliminates a plugged boiler etc. When was the last time this unit had a good cleaning? Flame roll-out can cause this along with a lack of secondary air or some restriction to air for combustion again that would typically be a reoccurring problem.