Heating Help

Was a heat loss done

@ February 15, 2013 1:07 PM in How water boiler system

on your hose before the boiler install? What was the input of the old system as far as BTU's? There is a possibility the boiler is now undersized. This will typically show up at lower outside temperatures. Did the installer tell you what kind of return temperatures you would get on the new boiler in order for condensing to take place? What is the temperature of the water typically leaving the boiler?

It could also be the case that the boiler control system was not set up correctly. I believe you would have the "U" Control on that boiler? Ask your installer some of these questions.

No one interested?

@ February 13, 2013 2:12 PM in Gas Training

Is it too far for the nearby New York or eastern PA guys and how about those in NJ?

What is it

@ February 13, 2013 2:09 PM in Boiler Pilot Assembly Help

doing to make you think it is the wrong application? Is it a thermocouple pilot or a powerpile? Has a pilot safety turndown test been done? What is the make and model of the pilot on there now?

Run "B" vent up through the existing chimney

@ February 13, 2013 2:04 PM in general chimney question

as the chimney liners themselves are 20% less BTU capacity as the same size "B" vent.

One of the things that has affected the water heater all by itself is the higher efficiency of the water heaters means less flue loss, they also have reduced the size of the orifices on pilots so less BTU being generated there also. The two pilots one on the heating system one on the water heater helped in the past to keep the chimney pretty warm giving you a head start on drafting when one or the other came on.

When you say modern

@ February 13, 2013 1:59 PM in Gas-Fired Steam without Electricity?

millivolt valves what make and model are you talking about? It really is not feasible to do what you are asking. I have done old large gas actuated boilers with two safety pilots, retrofitted to a powerpile system with one pilot handling the generator (750 millivolts) and the other pilot using a cabinet mounted 30 millivolt pilot safety tied into the 750 millivolt valve. This insures that if any pilot system fails the complete boiler is shut off. That would not however cover the design requirements for redundancy today.

As an old gasman

@ February 12, 2013 12:07 PM in The white Stuff

from way back - so what is new? We have been having gas pressure problems when demand exceeds supply for years, extreme cold brings it on. All the old stuff would fire at 2" pressure without any problem. It would get a little worse when they mixed propane with natural gas then it was real fun. The Midco E-20 conversion burner would for instance operate at 2" W.C. and at least give some heat. That is not the case with negative pressure gas valves.

The utilities here in the North East are under a mandate to upgrade their old cast iron low pressure systems five miles or so per year. They are doing a pretty good job but it takes time. The popularity of gas has placed a high demand on the product street by street and the mains and services many times are undersized.

We would often with the new stuff tell contractors that equipment that needed a minimum pressure of 6" W.C. could not be installed in the inner city because it would not work all the time. This is the price we pay when we go to Mod/Con high efficiency equipment. It sort of works this way the fuel supply is inadequate many times and the system side of the install may not have had the special attention it needs. The combination of the two is a disaster.

I commissioned a commercial job recently (1,800,000 BTU's) and the utility would only guarantee 5" W.C.at the outlet of the rotary meter. We had to run a 3" pipe line to this unit in order to have some volume for safe firing. It is the price we pay.

I would tell folks looking to avoid this problem check to see if the utility can give you a 2 pound or five pound line into the facility. Then you can control the pressure with a Maxitrol pounds to inches regulator at the appliance.

Gas Training

@ February 12, 2013 11:32 AM in Gas Training

How many would attend a week of training if it was in New Jersey at Energy Kinetics in Lebanon NJ? There is a possibility that I will be there in the middle of April for two weeks. I would be doing my five day seminar program as follows:
Gas Combustion
Circuitry and Troubleshooting
Hydronic Controls
Electric Ignition Systems
Advanced Electric Ignition Systems

Stay tuned for further details.

Brian, I have over 5,000

@ February 12, 2013 10:50 AM in Need advice!

e-mail addresses I am not sure what yours is so e-mail me at gastc@cox.net

The burner could be delaying on igntion

@ February 11, 2013 8:22 PM in Thunderous GV90+

that means a professional should look at the unit and also do a combustion analysis.

Generator

@ February 10, 2013 7:32 PM in Good old "Powerpile"

say I might just look into one of those someday, perhaps before I kick the bucket and leave all the mechanical upgrades to my wealthy son and daughter.

Truth is many furnace manufacturers and several boiler folks have offered me a freebie just to try there product. I prefer to put them in my training center for training folks on them.

Water heaters use

@ February 10, 2013 7:18 PM in Gas-Fired Steam without Electricity?

a single seated set up with total regulation of gas pressure and incorporate an ECO (195° fusible link safety) which is a one time fail system. The valve is operated from a standing pilot system using a 30 millivolt thermocouple for the pilot safety system. The temperature is controlled by the rod and tube inserted into the water which is attached to a single seat mechanism. The ECO would typically be considered the safety versus a dual seat application.

Good old "Powerpile"

@ February 10, 2013 11:13 AM in Good old "Powerpile"

Please don't misunderstand I am all for saving energy and what that entails.

The recent snowstorm left me with out power for about 30 hours (back on at midnight last night) thanks to National Grid. I was however nice and warm with my old warm air furnace 60 years old and still working great. Many years ago I converted it to powerpile. When I lose the power I remove my door to the blower and add my extended piece of duct work to the opening on the blower door. The reason for that is you do not want return air and air for combustion coming from the same space. The house stayed between 65 to 68 all the time. In addition I have an old Temco thru the wall direct vent heater also powerpile. I lit the pilot on that and it kept the family room at 70 all during the snow storm. It is funny I had an energy audit done several years ago and the furnace and space heater were condemned by the company doing the audit as very dangerous and possibly making high volumes of Carbon Monoxide (they never tested with a combustion analyzer) but relied on a report they had read about old gas equipment. By the way the CO reading on my furnace in the flue sample taken in October was 35 PPM air free. I was curious so I checked it at the peak of the snowstorm and it was 42 PPM air free.

I will not be installing a 90 plus furnace any day soon. Probably will have to if I sell the house to satisfy the folks who just do not know how good some things were and still are.

I normally heat most of the house with my Pellet stove but without power it will not work.

First of all was

@ February 10, 2013 10:50 AM in wayne burner p265f

a heat loss done on the property before changing the burner? How many square feet of radiation do you have. What is the outlet gas pressure from the gas valve? Was a combustion test done to determine the required maximum firing rate having been reached on the boiler?

The P265 Wayne Gas Burner by the way sometimes has problems firing over 150,000 BTU's as far as combustion adjustment.

It just may be that the original 1.25 nozzle was sized not just for heating but to also cover a tankless domestic water heater provision for BTU's.

"Powerpile" systems used on

@ February 10, 2013 10:39 AM in Gas-Fired Steam without Electricity?

many steam boilers all over the Northeast have run no matter what happens to the grid. They use a pilot generator that puts out about 750 millivolts which is sufficient to operate the gas valve manufactured for that purpose

They are no longer on gas equipment since the mandate of 1979 for dual seated "redundant gas valves" in order to insure a safer operation the odds on two valves failing to close versus one valve. Powerpile valves could not operate with a dual valve set up so they are no longer allowed on heating equipment. We still see them on decorative appliances, unvented space heater's, pool heaters. The Amish still have access to powerpile in some areas. They were a great system. See my posting about my experience this weekend with the snow storm on the Wall.

That is typical of

@ February 5, 2013 7:25 PM in Issues with & Replacement of Honeywell L8148E Aquastat

powerpile systems. You have a very simple circuit just the hi-limit in the relay and the wire from B1 - B2 to the gas valve not a lot can go wrong there. In addition to the troubleshooting procedure the gas pressure needs to be checked before the gas valve and at the outlet when it is running.

I need to dig

@ February 5, 2013 7:21 PM in Flame inside burner tube

out my manual on the HEII to get an idea on its sequence. I will get back to you.

Your problem is not the same I

@ February 4, 2013 6:43 PM in Issues with & Replacement of Honeywell L8148E Aquastat

would say. The relay you have the L814B has an isolated burner circuit typically used with powerpile systems.You probably have a powerpile (self generating) gas valve, is that correct? If so is the pilot lit? If it is then you need a professional to come in and take some millivolt readings on your system. It can sometimes be that the pilot needs cleaned and a new generator installed. I have a section here at Heating help called Tim's Closet, go to resources above and click then library and look for that section it outlines how to take readings on these systems.

This is known as

@ February 4, 2013 6:31 PM in Flame inside burner tube

"Flashback". It is usually the result of an out of adjustment gas and air mixture causing the flame velocity to exceed the flow velocity. Typically a slight adjustment to the air shutter will take care of it.Closing the air shutter a very small amount. This should be done by a professional who should also do a combustion test on your equipment along with cleaning and adjusting any thing else that may need attention. The flame on a properly adjusted gas burner (natural or propane) should be a soft blue flame, not roaring or lifting.

Was this happening during very cold weather? If so it could be the result of poor vaporization of the liquid from the tank into the piping system. See if it goes away with a temperature increase.

It is often the case

@ February 3, 2013 5:26 PM in Has anyone had problems with Dunkirk Boilers?

when the outdoor temperature goes down that the air being drawn from outside being much colder, therefore heavier it will affect the ignition of the gas air mix, as long as it ignites it should be okay. Sometimes cleaning the burner and chamber will help or replacing the burner as the factory suggested.

Sounds great

@ February 2, 2013 3:17 PM in Duty of the HVAC technician according to law?

just one problem the PHCC here tried that and NFPA and the International Fuel Gas Code folks went after them for copyright infringement.

I have a manual I wrote called Fundamentals of Gas Volume II which covers Air for Combustion and Venting of Category I equipment. In order for me to use that manual I have to pay a fee to NFPA and International Fuel Gas Code people. The reason is I include a lot of the code in the manual but with my explanation of the code.

The obvious thing is you have to quote the code in order to teach the code but you can't change the wording of the code as you do not have the authority. I solve the problem now by buying code books for all my students and then they reimburse me. Keep in mind some folks who must use these codes are not lawyers and might I say perhaps not real good readers. So I have to put the code into language they understand and make it as simple as I can so they do not get into trouble.

I was doing training on code for gas fitters in a particular state and getting paid to do it. The code group (I will not name names) came in and took that away from me and several others because "we were not directly involved with the writing of the code". That I have since found out has been a very lucrative business for that code group.

Zach you can do what ever you want

@ February 2, 2013 2:53 PM in cleaning my burners

I am just a guy who has been working on gas systems and teaching about them since I was 9 years old. I am now 73 years old. GET A PRO TO LOOK AT YOUR SYSTEM.  Hey he might even save you some money.

Since I have been out here

@ February 2, 2013 2:45 PM in Duty of the HVAC technician according to law?

on  my own (1994) I have been required to spend over $9,000 on codes and standards in order to continue to be able to teach. Now I am not Harvard by the way so that is a big dent in my pocket book. That does not even take into account having to have codes for Mass, RI CT, Maine, NH, Vermont and New York as folks come to me from all those places. So let us gather together and make some more codes so NFPA, and all the others can make some more money.

I will tell you as one who has been doing this for many years just getting codes established, then published can take years. Try submitting a proposal to change something. Henry and Bob and some others who perhaps sit on these code boards will tell you it is not simple.

Interesting when I was with the gas utility we got the codes and standards for free, and no it was not because we joined their club, they just gave them away back then as they figured the gas company would be a good sales group for them to our many contractor customers.