Joined on August 17, 2009
Last Post on September 13, 2014
@ March 16, 2014 1:44 PM in Thermo couplesa multi-meter that will measure millivolts? If so then go up and click resources, then library and look for Tims closet there is a procedure for checking thermocouples there.
@ March 16, 2014 1:40 PM in Only half the burners are litlow pressure gas, typically you are getting about 6 to 10 inches water column pressure (slightly less than 1/2 a pound of pressure. These systems can have problems with pressure in the street. Such things as do you live at the end of a dead end street or a cul-de-sac can all affect the gas pressure. Once again the gas utility should b e able to assist you with that end of problem. I am sure if you hook up with Charlie he can help you with anything else that may be wrong.
@ March 15, 2014 7:40 PM in Only half the burners are litlow pressure or high pressure ( HP has a regulator at the meter) low pressure has no regulator?
Depending on low or high pressure it could possibly be undersized house piping, it could be the service or main if low pressure. In the case of high pressure it could be the regulator. I would get hold of your local utility and have them look at it.
@ March 15, 2014 7:14 PM in Only half the burners are litpressure problem. The flames should be much higher on the three burners lit with low flames, that would also cause the other burners to not light some times which is dangerous. You need to have gas pressures checked with a "U' Tube manometer or digital manometer which ever the tech you call has. Is this natural gas or LP?
@ March 15, 2014 7:10 PM in convert Nat gas to propwith no access door to the burner the instructions for some dryers tell you to remove the back, remove the drum and install the new burner orifice. I have found on several dryers it is easier to turn the dryer over and take the bottom of usually 6 to 8 screws and you have direct access to the orifice in the burner.
The reason the door was done away with was due to children opening the burner access door which did not shut off the drum and little fingers getting cut-off. That was the same reason many years ago a mechanical switch was placed on the access door to the drum.
@ March 15, 2014 3:10 PM in Heatmaker detonating on start upLP with very low out door temperatures LP can sometimes delay on ignition.
@ March 15, 2014 2:59 PM in Heatmaker detonating on start upLP? I would still take it apart and clean it just to be sure and do a combustion test.
@ March 15, 2014 2:57 PM in convert Nat gas to propConverting gas appliances:
Tim can tell me I'm full of it but:
No one ever told me this. It is my personal observation of what he said and why it can't be done.
I have converted a lot of gas appliances from NG to LPG because most all of the consumer driven gas appliances are designed and sold as Nat. Gas appliances. YOU CAN ORDER APPLIANCES SET UP FOR LP THAT DO NOT NEED CONVERTED.
And where O worked, there will never be Nat. Gas available. YOU NEVER KNOW YOU COULD GET LNG OR CNG SOMEDAY.
The majority of gas appliances like stoves and dryers are installed as Nat. Gas. LPG is a much smaller part of the industry. So, the burners and accessories are designed for NG. THAT IS NOT CORRECT I HAVE VISITED MANY OF THE BURNER MANUFACTURERS WHO MAKE BURNERS AND HAVE BEEN ADJUSTING GAS BURNERS FOR MANY YEARS. MOST OF THE BURNERS TODAY FOR EXAMPLE MAY NOT COME WITH AN AIR SHUTTER. THAT IS A BURNER WHICH IS COMPATIBLE WITH BOTH LP AND NAT GAS BY DESIGN.
LPG is just another afterthought. They now use some form of "Shot-Gun" type burner with little if any adjustment for air-fuel mixtures. THERE ARE WAYS TO ADJUST THOSE BURNERS WHICH WE TEACH IN OUR CLASSES.
Whatever orifice is used on say a 5,000 BTU cook top MOST COOK-TOPS ARE 10,000 TO 12,000 BTUS' AND USE COAXIAL ORIFICES ALSO CALLED UNIVERSAL ORIFICES WHICH CAN BE SCREWED ALL THE WAY DOWN ON THE SPUD FOR LP AND ALL THE WAY OUT FOR NATURAL. THERE IS ALSO USUALLY A CONVERTIBLE REGULATOR WHICH CAN BE USED FOR BOTH LP AND NATURAL GAS. THE ONLY EXCEPTION TO THE COAXIAL SPUDS ARE WAIST HIGH BROILERS AND THOSE HAVE AN ORIFICE SHIPPED WITH THE STOVE UNDER THE COOK TOP IN A SPECIAL SPOT. THE OVEN SPUDS ARE ALSO COAXIAL., uses an appropriate spud/orifice to supply the proper amount of undiluted gas through the venture/mixing space and into the burner that is designed for a set amount of air/fuel to burn. At the NG pressure range expected. Which can be wide. THE CONVERTIBLE REGULATORS GIVE 6" W.C. ON NATURAL GAS AND 10 : W.C. ON LP AND THOSE PRESSURES ARE FIXED.
With LPG, it takes a much smaller orifice because the pressure is higher and the gas has more BTU's. To try to get an equal amount of properly mixed gas to give you a air/fuel ratio without copious amounts of CO coming off the burners with LPG is a seriously difficult task. NOT THAT DIFFICULT WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
THE MOST LIKELY APPLIANCE TO BE SET UP FOR A PARTICULAR GAS AND LABELED NOT CONVERTIBLE IS ON WATER HEATERS AND THAT IS DUE TO THE DESIGN OF THE WATER HEATERS AND THERE SUSCEPTIBILITY TO MAKING HIGH LEVELS OF CO.
If you get a stove that needs to be converted, notice that the NG BTU rating will always be higher than with LPG. Because they can't mix it properly so they find a sweet spot" to give them the best and safest output.
A year or so ago, I installed two LPG fireplace logs that are approved for open flue fireplaces with the dampers removed. They can NOT be converted. You order them for Nat. Gas or LPG. These are the models that don't smoke and use a Bunsen flame between the fake logs. Two years prior to that, I did the kitchen over. I converted and installed a brand new well recognized brand of stove. Gas cook-tops and electric bottoms. To properly size the gas piping, I needed to know the output of the 5 burners on the top if all were running at the same time. Our inspector might want to see the figures. There were no ratings for LPG, only Nat. Gas. What I went through. Tech support was clueless as to what I was talking about. THAT IS BECAUSE THE INPUTS FOR NATURAL AND LP ARE THE SAME A BTU IS A BTU. IF YOU USE AN ACCURATE CALCULATOR TO SIZE ORIFICES THERE WILL BE NO PROBLEM MATCHING UP BTU TO BTU. THEN TUNING THE BURNERS USING A COMBUSTION ANALYZER WILL SOLVE ANY CO ISSUES. They told me that I didn't need to use the supplied spuds. The manufacturer supplied the spuds. That wasn't the issue. The stove was convertible, the logs were not. When I was done with the installation of the logs and I fired them off, I stuck my Insight analyzer in the exhaust stream. After 20 minutes of steady running, the CO level never went above 10 PPM. I tried the stove. The worst burner was 95 PPM. The normal was 75+ PPM, CO. And this is an approved stove. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE SOMETHING IS DEFINITELY WRONG EITHER YOU NEED TRAINING OR SOMETHING IS DEFECTIVE.
Massachusetts requires hard wired CO detectors on each floor. This job was compliant.
@ March 15, 2014 2:31 PM in Heatmaker detonating on start upit is vented. Some of them got there air for combustion from within the room others used a separate venting process for products of combustion and air for combustion, then still others used a concentric venting process which would be susceptible to cross contamination. Remove the connection and using a combustion analyzer the CO2 for air coming back into the unit should not read above 1% if it does the vent integrity has let go.
Has the unit been serviced? If not the chamber needs taken apart and cleaned, make sure the burner is inspected to make sure it is not damaged. Then do a combustion analysis on the unit.
@ March 15, 2014 2:24 PM in Gas ignitor only lasts one heating systemsilicon nitride ignter?
The Norton 201 and 271 silicon carbide igniters have now been replaced by a nitride igniter which is much more durable. The resistance of those igniters at room temperature should be for the 201 45 to 400 ohms, for the 271 40 - 75 Ohms. They should be operating between 4.25 to 4.75 amps when powered.
Make sure the flame is properly adjusted and that the burners light smoothly a heavy ignition can cause the igniters to crack.
Was a combustion test run on this unit with an electronic analyzer?
@ March 15, 2014 12:38 PM in Gas ignitor only lasts one heating systemigniter when you are using the AC so it has no effect. When they change the igniter what do they say is wrong with it? Is it broken as they are very fragile? They should give some explanation as to what the problem with the igniters could be such as cracks, bright spots, high resistance etc. What do they get when they test the amperage with the igniter?
@ March 15, 2014 11:06 AM in Natural Gas to LP gas conversion .. orifices· Natural Gas to LP gas conversion .. orifices
My 95% efficient furnace was installed by a licensed contractor in November 2012. This furnace is a 90,000 BTU with 6 in-line burners. Upon the furnace installation ..the installer converted this furnace from NG to LP. But, he installed size 54 orifices even though the owners manual specified size 1.15 orifices.
A 90,000 BTU furnace with 6 burners is 15,000 BTU per burner. The correct orifice size for LP at 10” W.C. is a # 57 drill. A lot of poorly trained folks have been told that you can always be safe with LP using a 54 drill and for natural gas a 42. Well that is not always the case you have to calculate each installation. Your furnace with a #54 drill size was firing at 25,000 per burner which is 150,000 BTU’s way over gassed. If he had ordered a conversion kit from the furnace manufacturer he would have received the correct orifices.
The furnace failed in December 2013 due to the secondary HX completely plugged with soot. The furnace has had a new HX put in. When the new HX was put in and the furnace turned back on, it started short-cycling immediately ..approximately 6 minutes burners on then approximately 2 minutes burners off ..all the while the blower motor was on. Note: It had been short-cycling like this since I can remember. I originally assumed it was the new 2-stage blower kicking in. (I am not an expert in furnace operation!)
Because it was overfired it was cycling off on high limit. This also can damage the heat exchanger due to thermal stress.
Eventually I asked for the improper gas orifices to be replaced with the correct size orifices, and the furnace seems to be working properly.
The original installer told me that the old HX might not be covered by warranty, and that he would not accept responsibility for the cost. He said that improper size gas orifices will never cause soot.
The oversized orifices will definitely cause soot (Carbon Monoxide), you are fortunate no one was killed.
It seems to me after a bit of internet research that he may be wrong. It seems an improper (oversized) gas orifice will cause incomplete combustion, and that the 2 products of incomplete combustion are soot and CO.
(Also, as a side note, ..during the time this furnace had operated on the oversize gas orifices, my propane usage increased by nearly 30% even though last winter was relatively milder than most in my area.)
You will definitely use a lot more fuel when you oversize as drastically as this was done.
I would like to ask the furnace installer to assume the cost for fixing the furnace, but again, he says his improper size gas orifices would never cause soot.
Again he is definitely wrong as too much fuel into a combustion chamber will always cause soot.
He says it might have been my outside regulators at the tank and at the house are probably faulty.
If that were the case why didn’t he have the LP provider look into that?
If I could get the manufacturer to honor the warranty on the HX, then I would only have the costs for labor to fix the furnace. Unfortunately, hHe also says it is not his responsibility to pay for labor to fix the furnace even if it were possible that the wrong gas orifices were part of the problem (which he insists was not the cause).
Is my furnace installer correct that the oversize gas orifices will not cause any soot and that he has no responsibility at all? Also, is there any possibility that the oversize gas orifices might have resulted in increased propane usage.
I think it is time for the lawyers to get involved as you have definitely been wronged if all that you are posting here is a fact. I would also contact the manufacturer of the equipment.
@ March 14, 2014 10:16 PM in Natural Gas to LP gas conversion .. orificesI had a nice long posting to answer your questions but the site kept dumping me off. You can e-mail me at [email protected] or call me at 401-437-0557 and I will answer all your questions.
@ March 14, 2014 9:49 PM in Please help aquastatL8148A is a 120 volt burner circuit. The L8148J is a universal replacement relay for 24 volts of millivolts(Powerpile Self Generating). You have to replace an "A" with an "A".
@ March 14, 2014 9:44 PM in excessive draft and stack tempsopen and gets its air for combustion from the room (atmospheric boiler) then a full pad must be placed under the boiler extending 2 1/2" out on all sides. Putting such a boiler up on blocks will drastically increase excess air and can cause high levels of Carbon Monoxide along with a high stack temperature and excessive draft due to the larger package of air and products of combustion that needs to be removed.
It is amazing how many of these I see in the field.
@ March 14, 2014 10:39 AM in Propane and condensateit had been a long day I will correct the posting.
@ March 13, 2014 8:03 PM in Raypak Boiler Low Temperature Readingin the gas section.
@ March 13, 2014 8:00 PM in Propane and condensatecould be argued will give a better mix for combustion. MY testing and experience however show that as long as the intake air is above 10° F it does not seem to have much of an effect. I will however concede to lower temps (less than 10° F) causing some difficulty with the air gas mix and getting a good combustion condition in the fire box. This seems to be different with Mod/Con air gas mix and is less of a problem. This is a good argument for Concentric vents as the intake air would pick up some temp as it passed over the exiting flue gas products in the other pipe.
Now as to whether it would change the amount of condensate that I would believe would be a very small difference. The air (O2 and N) mixing with the gas (carbon and hydrogen (CH4 for natural) (C3 H8 for propane) producing a certain volume of water vapor, CO2, CO (trace) and Nox. The fact that you need less air for natural gas than you do for LP could make a difference but very little. The Mod/Con boilers only allow the exact amount of air to be drawn in to match the ODR demand so at lower outdoor temperatures we would be running at higher input, more air, more condensate. The reverse as we lower combustion air blower speed and BTU demand with higher outdoor temps.
Jim Davis and I had a discussion here on the Wall about this several years back if memory serves me.
@ March 13, 2014 4:38 PM in Mercury control replacementIs it SPST or SPDT? The L6006A is a SPDT but can be used to replace SPST by wiring to R - B (Normally closed opens on a temperature rise) used as High limit, Low Limit or Domestic aquastat, or R - W (Normally open closes on a temperature rise) used as a circulator control.
The L428 is a series 40 - 120 volt control so the 6006A can be used to replace it.
@ March 13, 2014 3:19 PM in converting oil burner to gasWhy do you want to convert? Is the oil system working to your satisfaction as far as providing adequate heat? Has the boiler been serviced every year? Is your chimney lined? There are a lot more questions I would ask as an installer.
Now to your question, Burnham does not authorize any of their boilers being converted from oil to gas. It will void the warranty if there still is one in effect. As long as the installer is a trained gas power conversion burner installer and follows the instructions from the gas conversion burner manufacturer and ANSI Z21.8 version 2002 there is no danger. I have converted over 3,500 systems from coal, oil to natural gas and propane. To this date I have had no issues with any of them other than routine maintenance.
The choice is between you and your contractor.
@ March 13, 2014 3:05 PM in Propane and condensatenumber is about a gallon per 100,000 BTU's, which is actually the amount relative to the vapors created by complete combustion which if those vapors cooled completely would come to that number. That being said the mod/con condensate must also calculate as to return water temperature and the stack temperature in the vent. So I would say it would be difficult to calculate without more sophisticated measuring devices. The stack temp and return water temp vary based on the demand placed on the system. The theoretical dew point of the flue gases is 140 ° F for gas, oil and propane. That added to the point of condensing on most boilers being around 135° F return water temperature adding the two gives 275° F which by most is considered the lowest stack we would allow on a conventional boiler systems. Mod/Cons operate at much lower temperatures which is why they condense, the lower the return water temperature and the lower the stack temperature the higher the amount of condensate based on firing rate. That presents another problem which is the modulating side of the picture which is controlled by some kind of outdoor reset or a combination of sensing both indoor and outdoor to control the firing rate of the system. Most residential systems have a 5 to 1 turn-down ratio. Taking the number 5 and dividing it into the input will give you the lowest firing rate an example 100,000 BTU's divided by 5 would give you approximately 20,000 the lowest firing rate.
As to propane being different than natural gas as to condensate the answer is in a given situation all things being equal they would produce the same amount of condensate
@ March 12, 2014 8:39 PM in Bryant Plus 90 Code 33 to 13 but doesn't seem to be the limit switch.is 24 volts so I would set the meter on AC volts to start with.