Joined on August 17, 2009
Last Post on April 21, 2014
@ February 23, 2014 3:30 PM in Tim; New IFGC Questionhas been in NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code and IFGC for several years now. It restricts the use of exposed or actually called Exterior Masonry Chimneys in certain climate zones. These are defined by Figure B-19 in the code book. The Maryland area is in zone as defined by table 504.3 (6b) as the 5 degree to 16 degree zone which will not allow the chimney to be used unless as a minimum it is 10 feet high with an internal area of 113 square inches and input to the chimney is 430,000 BTU's. THIS IS NOTHING NEW AND IT IS NOT A CHANGE TO THE CODE IT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR QUITE A WHILE. ALL WSSC IS DOING IS LETTING IT BE KNOWN THAT IT IS GOING TO BE ENFORCED.
HERE IS THE ARTICLE FROM WSSC:
Strict Enforcement of Outside Chimney Venting Restrictions
In most applications where space heating appliance(s) [furnaces and boilers] are served by an "outside" masonry chimney, the chimney will require the installation of a listed liner when any of the existing appliances served by the chimney are replaced. According to the sizing charts contained in the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC), outside chimneys cannot be utilized "as is" unless a minimum of 300 - 400 Thousand Btu's are connected.
A water heater(s) may be connected to an outside chimney providing two conditions are met:
1.) There is not a space heating appliance connected;
2.) The internal cross sectional area of the chimney does not exceed seven (7) times the area of the smallest connected draft hood.
Refer to 2012 IFGC code section 504.2.9 and Tables 504.2(3) & 504.2(6) for single appliance venting; refer to code section504.3.20 and Tables 504.3(6a), 504.3(7a) & 504.3(6b), 504,3(7b) for multi appliance venting.
These IFGC code sections and tables have priority over less restrictive manufacturers installation instructions including those touted as having "chimney friendly”alternatives.
Important Safety Message- Be sure to remove all accumulations, each and every time, from the base of chimneys and vents (dirt pockets), prior to placing any equipment into service. This applies to all inside and outside chimneys, which qualify for continued use, as well as metal vent systems. Always check the integrity of the whole venting system!
This is a good thing as there are really too many problems now with appliances which can not generate enough Delta T temperature difference and lack of height along with exposure on three sides to the chimney. They will just not have adequate draft to be safe.
I do not think anyone is trying to get rid of equipment, they are coming to the realization that chimneys which once experienced 30 to 40% of the heat generated as flue loss when now reduced to 15 % or less will not operate.
@ February 23, 2014 2:38 PM in Tim; New IFGC QuestionWSSC, I had looked at there information about modifications but could not find anything about chimneys. I will have to look again. I wish unclejohn could download the pdf file so could see just what they are modifying.
@ February 22, 2014 9:41 PM in Forensic Investigation:folks it does it all the time. Water treatment may help in some cases. I have 32 boilers I put in that I treated the water and only one has ever had a problem in over 18 years. I do not leave city water connected to any of my boiler installs. All are protected with LWCO's.
@ February 22, 2014 9:35 PM in Clocking My CGiboiler firing rate with the meter the formula is:
Let the meter 1/2 foot dial make two rotations and accurately clock that with a stop watch. Let us say it took 20 seconds, divide that into 3600 (number of seconds in an hour) that comes to 180 Cubic feet per hour. The boiler is rated in BTU's so to get BTU's from Cubic feet you must know the local BTU per cubic foot. That is usually on the gas bill it will say so many ccf at 1025, 1025 is the average BTU sent out for that particular area. You would multiply 180 times 1025 to get your BTU 184,500.
It is also a good idea to check gas pressure at the outlet of the gas valve in most cases it is 3.5" W.C. unless you have a negative pressure gas valve. Do not use a water filled manometer on negative pressure gas valves as they will suck the water out of the manometer.
Hope that helps.
@ February 22, 2014 7:20 PM in Tim; New IFGC QuestionActually MySource was my Lennox distributor. They have basically stopped stocking the kits. I'm in the Washington DC area and I contacted my local code enforcement [WSSC] and was told they kits are only allowed on interior chimneys. DO THEY SAY THIS IS PART OF THE IFGC OR IS IT LOCAL? I ASSUME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CHIMNEY LINER KITS? WILL THEY ALLOW "B" VENTS TO BE INSTALLED IN EXISTING CHIMNEYS?I have used them on all chimneys in the past. I have a customer who refuses to believe me when I tell her she has to line her chimney. She says she hasn't heard of that. I ask her what codes she has heard of and she didn't have a answer for that, but still doesn't believe me.My local enforcers say it is new and went into effect on Nov. !st last year. ARE THEY STILL ALLOWING EXISTING CHIMNEYS TO BE USED AS A CHACE FOR CATEGORY IV EQUIPMENT AS LISTED IN MANY MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS?
@ February 22, 2014 1:50 PM in Tim; New IFGC Questionit will not change until 2015. I did however look up the latest meeting of the code folks for the International Code Council 2012/2013 Code Development Cycle (Group A 2012) group A looks at International Fuel Gas Code and makes proposed changes to that code. The proposed changes to the 2012 edition did not show any changes for venting with chimneys.
Once again what is your source. I wish I had my 2012 code book handy.
@ February 22, 2014 12:54 PM in Tim; New IFGC Questionare referring to. It is a fact however when you look at charts in IFGC in chapter 5 section 504.3 (6a) thru 501.3 (7b) depending on local 99% winter design temps that appliances many times can't be vented into those chimneys, you will note all the NA in the charts. I am not sure what affect that would have on kits which install venting inside existing chimneys using them as a chase. I do not have my latest version of IFGC in the office it is at my training center. I am looking at 2009 version however I do not think any drastic changes have taken place.
See Figure B-19 for your temperature zone as applied to those charts.
How did this come to your attention?
@ February 21, 2014 1:57 PM in Old gas boiler using a lot of gas. How to adjust temps?L8148E Aqua-stat Relay. This relay has a Hi-limit only which is probably set for around 180 degrees. It is what is called a cold start system. What should be happening (unless there are some controls we are not seeing) when the thermostat calls the burner and circulator should come on together and run until the call for heat is satisfied. If the system goes off on limit while the call for heat still exists the circulator should keep running.
I am located in RI and if you are interested have someone who could look at your system. Call me at 401-437-0557.
@ February 20, 2014 8:04 PM in how prevalent is this?place at 140 degrees, it has to be above 180 for that to happen. Legionnaires also has to do with keeping the water moving along with the magic temp of 140 degrees. Almost all bacteria harmful to humans dies at 140 or higher.
Another point to consider here which it has been my experience on the service side of this subject has to do with cycling and the fact that these systems are not designed for the cycle rate of most boilers. The result is the life of them is drastically shortened.
@ February 19, 2014 8:49 PM in Tom Schwarz has passed awayback and forth with Tom, he was always looking for answers and many times also helped me with answers. I will miss him and TGO Mechanical. Rest in peace my Brother.
@ February 19, 2014 12:15 PM in How to replace a transformer on a Taco SR 504but first find out what caused the transformer to go.
mount an external Honeywell AT150F circuit breaker transformer and after disconnecting the wires from the SR 504 transformer connect it up. The circuit breaker will prevent burning out another transformer just in case you have a short. Just leave the old transformer in the SR 504.
@ February 19, 2014 12:10 PM in need help replacing boiler zone valve-wiringgo to the motor in zone valve - one lead from the transformer is typically connected to the one "yellow" - the other wire from the transformer should go to the thermostat - and the other "yellow" to the other wire from the thermostat.
The "reds" are your end switch for the zone valve and go to TT on the relay.
on the V8043F the two wires from the transformer go to TR and the two wires from the thermostat go to TH and the two wires which were attached to "red" go to the TT on the relay (if that is what you have) or to T and TV depending on the relay.
@ February 18, 2014 12:21 PM in Steam/Water heat service in Providence RI areaat 401-437-0557 I live in Riverside RI and will give you the number of a local company which is very qualified to look at that system.
@ February 18, 2014 12:17 PM in Which chart for sizing vents.the power burners installation instructions should give the size. That being said a conversion has always been a CAT I appliance the blower on the burner has nothing to do with powering the vent as its purpose is to pre mix gas and air before ignition.
Which chart for sizing vents.
but it really doesn't make sense they would be lumped with draft hoods since draft hood equipped appliances have much larger volumes of gases to vent due to the draft hood air entering the venting system WITH THE DOUBLE SWING BAROMETRIC YOU HAVE CONTROL OVER DILUTION AIR BUT THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE CATEGORY AS CATEGORY IS BASED ON SEVERAL THINGS SUCH AS STACK TEMP, EFFICIENCY, ETC.
Does it change when it is pressure fired? I suspect these are CAT 3 appliances. IF THEY ARE THEN THEY MUST USE STAINLESS STEEL VENTING AND BE SEALED TIGHT. THEY ARE NOT THEY ARE CATEGORY I. LOOK UP THE FOUR CATEGORY'S AS TO ALL THE REQUIREMENTS.
The venting charts I have seen do not specifically call out CAT 1 for natural and CAT 3 for fan assisted, even in the codes. THAT IS NOT TRUE IF YOU LOOK AT NFPA 54 CODES YOU HAVE "NAT" FOR NATURAL DRAFT "FAN" FOR FAN ASSISTED (WHICH MEANS THE ONLY PURPOSE OF THE INDUCED DRAFT FAN IS TO OVERCOME THE INTERNAL RESISTANCE OFFERED BY THE SECTIONS OR HEAT EXCHANGER) THE PRESSURE AT THE BREACH IS STILL NEGATIVE. THEN THERE IS A COLUMN FOR "FAN/NAT".
@ February 17, 2014 7:10 PM in Adding automatic vent damper to old cast iron boiler?another barometric or a neutral pressure point adjuster (flue restrictor). I have the specs for such a device.
@ February 17, 2014 1:29 PM in Poly Pro venting....for Poly Pro by Duravent no sealants or sprays are needed. See:
Are the horizontal runs pitched back to the boiler?
@ February 17, 2014 11:21 AM in Adding automatic vent damper to old cast iron boiler?back in the early 70's were all retrofits. Honeywell, Johnson, Flair and Effikal all were originally promoted as a retrofit. The utility I worked for installed many of them during that time.
The only problem today may be the fuse that is included in designed systems that blows on the first call for heat. This is so if the damper is disconnected from the primary control the system will not work. The blown fuse is not replaceable by the way. That is the safety.
@ February 17, 2014 11:16 AM in Adding automatic vent damper to old cast iron boiler?vent dampers to be used with conversion burners.
@ February 16, 2014 5:43 PM in Automatic vent dampenersystem to operate after vent damper has been activated and a fuse blows inside the primary control, relay, module what ever. Remove the damper from the flue and at the primary control pull the damper plug and jump the two middle terminals on the receptacle on the control. Test every thing to make sure all safeties are okay. This is supported by a factory bulletin from Weil McLain. If you would like a copy I can make it available to you.
@ February 16, 2014 5:37 PM in Adding automatic vent damper to old cast iron boiler?Controls site for GVD damper www.fieldcontrols.com/gvd.php
@ February 16, 2014 4:44 PM in Combustion analysis results questiondrill holes through the front of the draft hood one for each section take individual readings and average them out. Seal them up after with high temp RTV sealant.
The yellow from the flame can typically be eliminated by adjusting the primary air shutter for a soft blue flame not roaring not lifting. Make sure all doors are in place when taking the readings.