Heating Help

Len, give me a call

@ February 6, 2010 2:51 PM in instructional videos

here in the USA at 401-437-0557

Tim McElwain
Gas Appliance Service Training and Consulting &
Gas Training Institute
22 Griffith Drive
Riverside, RI 02915
e-mail gastc@cox.net

After 50 years of working

@ February 6, 2010 2:42 PM in Concentric Venting

with both natural gas and propane it has been my experience that low temperatures related to air for combustion can have an affect on the combustion process. This is why the old timers used to hang 200 watt light bulbs in boiler rooms to create some heat when air for combustion was being brought directly from out doors.

There have been many debates concerning this over the years but experience to my way of thinking is the best teacher. Hence if you can find a way to heat the air before it enters the combustion process then do so.

Keep in mind also that some gas valves are only rated to operate from zero to 150°F. So if the room gets down that low or close to it the valve may not open.

I have on purpose actually gone and done combustion tests on equipment on very cold days just to see what affect it would have on the overall combustion process. This is equipment that had previously been set up with normal say 60°F room air temperatures. There was a definite difference particularly with the dilution air being pulled into the draft hood. In a couple of cases I actually saw a curtain effect take place on the system.

Sorry for the double posting

@ February 6, 2010 2:30 PM in Munchkin Error Code F09

a little computer/internet glitch.

This is a very frequent code on

@ February 6, 2010 2:28 PM in Munchkin Error Code F09

Munchkins. This will occur after three attempts to light and then it goes into a one hour soft lockout.

Yes it is an indication that the control does not detect a flame. There are a number of things that will cause this however:

1. Do you have gas?

2. What is the inlet and outlet gas pressure to the gas valve?

3. Make sure the flame rod is clean and not damaged. It can be cleaned with a soft clean emory cloth.

4. Has the unit itself had annual cleanings?

5. Make sure the flue is not blocked.

6. Make sure the condensate line is clear and flowing.

I do not recommend attempting to make repairs unless you are a professional.

This is a very frequent code on

@ February 6, 2010 2:28 PM in Munchkin Error Code F09

Munchkins. This will occur after three attempts to light and then it goes into a one hour soft lockout.

Yes it is an indication that the control does not detect a flame. There are a number of things that will cause this however:

1. Do you have gas?

2. What is the inlet and outlet gas pressure to the gas valve?

3. Make sure the flame rod is clean and not damaged. It can be cleaned with a soft clean emory cloth.

4. Has the unit itself had annual cleanings?

5. Make sure the flue is not blocked.

6. Make sure the condensate line is clear and flowing.

I do not recommend attempting to make repairs unless you are a professional.

I have a little problem with

@ February 3, 2010 6:51 PM in Downfiring Boiler

some of those readings, in particular the CO air free is extremely low in both sets of readings, it is almost too good to be true.

The 10/01/2007 83.1% efficiency does not match up with the O2/O2/stack temperature my calculations show with those readings the efficiency would be 79%. To get 83% the stack temperature would have to be 250°F which would be causing condensation in the flue system.

The Feb 2, 2010 CO2 and O2 readings are actually out of sync with one another. However lining them up as best I can with my charts the 80.9% reading is not correct it should be 77%. The CO also very low.

If you are satisfied I guess we are all done but I am not sure you will see any change in cost to operate.

It is probably because

@ February 3, 2010 5:28 PM in Burham ES2 - Anyone had experience with this boiler?

the ES2 is fairly new on the market. Keep in mind it does have electronic controls that are expensive to replace. The ES2 is the closest step toward higher efficiency without getting into the condensing concept. Time will tell if it is all it is made out to be. I have attended training session with Burnham at my training center and I was impressed with the direction Burnham is going with the ES2.

Burnham is in the process of bringing out some new and interesting products.

Have a professional oil

@ February 3, 2010 4:19 PM in Venting

burner technician check it right away. You could be having flue gas spillage back into the room which means the possibility of Carbon Monoxide issues. Do it right away do not hesitate!

DO NOT i REPEAT

@ February 3, 2010 4:14 PM in can my gas meter supply enough gas?

DO NOT LEAVE THE 250 METER IN ON THIS JOB!

Sorry did not mean to shout but based on information given the 250 meter is borderline to say the least. Another size (large capacity)meter is no more money so upsize the meter. Believe me I know what I am talking about after working for a gas comapny for 28 years and having over 50 years in the gas business take my advice.

The 85.1% efficiency along

@ February 3, 2010 4:05 PM in Burham ES2 - Anyone had experience with this boiler?

with other control features make it a good choice if you are simply looking for a non condensing concept.

How many zones do you have?

@ February 3, 2010 3:59 PM in Quality Peripheral Items (e.g., circulator pump)

Are you going with Primary/Secondary piping? You might depending on your system want to look at the new variable speed circulators such as Grundfos Alpha, Wilo, or Taco.

Do you have baseboard, radiators for emitters? Did the installer say anything about outdoor reset or other related items when changing from a conventional boiler system to a MOD/CON boiler are needed?

There are other things to consider but that is enough for now to get you started asking the right questions.

The advantage is that

@ February 3, 2010 3:54 PM in Concentric Venting

you are preheating the air for combustion before introducing it to the combustion process. That will help the overall efficiency and is the best way to go.

If he reduced the pressure what was it when he

@ February 3, 2010 3:49 PM in Downfiring Boiler

started? Most gas valves are set up to operate at 3.5" WC outlet pressure. Reducing the pressure is just as bad as changing orifices you have accomplished NOTHING!

If the CO2 went down and the O2 went up and the stack temp increased then you have lowered the operating efficiency of your systems. You have accomplished NOTHING!

I would be interested in knowing what his readings were before he reduced the pressure and then what they were after the reduction.

The fact that he lowered the gas pressure can cause other problems. So here is my final question. What was the O2 reading and what was the CO (Carbon Monoxide air free reading) and what is the net stack temperature. Those three things will determine if the system is operating efficiently and might I add SAFELY! Why do I say that, very simple what he did (reducing pressure) can cause your CO air free in the stack to go over 100 PPM or higher.

It is never a good idea

@ February 2, 2010 12:56 PM in Downfiring Boiler

to plug off burners and remove them it will just take longer to heat up the unfired sections. It also does not change the amount of excess air being brought in so the combustion efficiency goes down even further. After 50 years of working on thousands of gas boilers and furnaces and testing them for combustion and thermal efficiency you actually lose more than you will ever gain.

In the 1980 and 90's AGA (American Gas Association) conducted testing across America on various energy and efficiency procedures. De-rating proved without exception to actually increase over all cubic foot consumption. Most of these tests lasted two years. Just as a point of interest the most efficient additions were insulation and new windows and sealing up air leaks. Those were also the cost effective as far as return on your investment. 

The construction

@ January 30, 2010 12:01 PM in polaris water heater burnout

contamination probably did it in. That is very typical of any gas or oil system being fired in a construction zone. Hot Surface Ignitors are especially susceptible to contamination in those environments.

The chemistry can be controlled

@ January 30, 2010 11:54 AM in Sensitivity of Condensing Boiler to Cast Iron Baseboard & Radiator Rust

by using a water treatment recommended by the particular boiler manufacturer. There is also a water treatment company called Rhomar which may be able to help you out.

If you are going to Mod/Con technology, the Revolution I is not Mod/Con as you note. There are other things you will have to consider. First and most important the cast iron baseboard and radiators must operate at 180° temperatures or higher. This does not allow for sufficient Delta T (temperature drop) to cause the condensing feature (140° F or less) to operate on the Mod/Con. You will need to use an outdoor reset feature and find a way to drop more temperature across the system before returning to the boiler. This can be done by increasing radiation somewhere in the system and dropping some BTU in some perhaps otherwise cold areas.

Make sure in this discussion

@ January 30, 2010 11:42 AM in can I regulate steam boiler...

we distinguish between commercial industrial applications and residential. The boilers used in commercial applications many times have a very sophisticated "gas train" with "mod Motors" and double block and bleed valves. This allows variables in firing rate, although I am not always convinced based on combustion testing that they are as efficient as some would think.

Atmospheric residential boilers and furnaces which have a fixed combustion chamber with fixed air openings do not lend themselves to run very efficiently at reduced (down firing ) setups. As was already mentioned you have excessive "excess air" on the low end which lowers efficiency. Two stage setups on most systems do not work well unless the boiler or furnace external piping and duct work are set up correctly.

What some are doing on steam boilers is a different animal. It has recently been shown on many modern two stage systems that firing the boiler or furnace initially on high fire and then going to a low fire if there is not a high fire demand is a better way to go. You establish some delta T and create some drafting in the flue which when then a drop to low fire occurs will give better combustion. Keep in mind these two stage systems on steam are being set up on new boilers which tend to make steam must faster. They are also using the pressuretrol (vaporstat) to control low fire if I am not mistaken.

Now lets us consider the modern designed Mod/Con boiler well to quote my friend Jim Davis when Ii recently ask him this question he states,

"The fact that these new boilers are low mass, drastically improves their operating and stand-by efficiency.  Most that I have tested run with very good O2 readings, 3% to 5%. Concerned that their flue temperature can be cooler than the water temperature they are operating because they are just a little too underfired.  They seem to hold these readings when they modulate which makes their modulation not as inefficient as furnaces.  They still lose radiant heat transfer by reducing the flame size but because they maintain slower vent motors their losses are 10% to 20% versus 30% to 40%.  Even running bad they would save 25% to 30% over any cast iron boiler."

In other words when a piece of equipment is designed from the ground up to operate at varying inputs it can be a more efficient way to go.
 

I am not a big fan of plugging off burners or changing orifices to reduce input on designed residential gas boilers or furnaces.
 

His fuel suppliers can

@ January 28, 2010 5:02 PM in Boiler efficiency

give all that too him. Especially the gas company as many gas bills now have a degree day on the bill. Then other factors can be calculated based on fuel bills gallons of oil versus therms of gas.

Congratulations Dan

@ January 27, 2010 10:55 AM in Happy Birthday Dan Holohan

may you have many more!

You match the output

@ January 27, 2010 10:52 AM in Downfiring Boiler

of the boiler to the heat loss/square feet of radiation. You could have the water heater set up to be a storage vessel for the winter and then switch over and use just the water heater in the summer. A good professional could do that for you very easily.

I am assuming this is a gas boiler

@ January 26, 2010 5:46 PM in Downfiring Boiler

based on your questions. The boiler at 175,000 BTU's (if all your calculations are correct) is way too large. I do have some questions that may answer why:
1. Did this boiler at one time provide or does it provide domestic hot water? If not to take advantage of some of that BTU you may want to consider an indirect water heater.that would be able to use up some of the BTU you have.

2. Have any radiators ever been removed?

Now as to down sizing, to down size this boiler it would have to be drastic and that would definitely affect combustion efficiency. The boiler heat exchanger and combustion chamber are sized to work best at full input which in your case is 175,000 BTU's.

Orifices are not the same as nozzles for oil and typically there is an orifice for every burner.

I would have a professional come in and do a heat loss, recheck your figures on square feet of radiation. Clock the burner to determine its exact input and also check gas pressures. They should also do a combustion test to determine if you are firing at maximum efficiency.Then they can advise you on alternatives.

Please contact me by e-mail as I want to hook you up with a Rep from Burnham to advise you on this boiler and what they may recommend.

My e-mail address is gastc@cox.net.

I am on the way out of the

@ January 26, 2010 10:17 AM in Downfiring Boiler

office but will get back to you on this. Right off the bat I do not recommend downfiring boilers and I will explain later why!