Heating Help

hold on

@ February 6, 2012 9:43 AM in Turning outdoor reset advice

"boost" is the "don't call me back to fix this" setting. it's not a good setting if you are actually trying to maximize your efficiency. Don't use it.

Setbacks reduce comfort. You should be able to find a comfort balance at a more consistent temperature, but if not, you need a programmable thermostat and you can experiment with different on times, or use one with an "optimum start" feature. if you must set back don't worry about it taking a long time to get out of setback.

I would start with 95/65 and I don't remember where you are located... not sure if 16 is the right design temp for you. but if it is, I would scream it down to 140 based on what you're saying for footage and square footage... let it go for a couple of days and see if you fall short. If not, I'd turn it down to 130. If you do, turn it up to 150.

trial and error is easy when you're on site and motivated.

it doesn't really matter that much

@ February 6, 2012 9:35 AM in Radiant circ

as long as the expansion tank is on the suction side of the pump and is not on the other side of the "load". i.e. if you trace back from the pump suction inlet, you should hit the expansion tank before you hit the radiant loops/radiators or the boiler.


supply side is slightly better but as long as it's not expansion tank > loop field > pump you'd be ok. If it is expansion > loop field > pump then you're wide open for major air issues.

large tempering valves

@ February 1, 2012 9:50 AM in snap/banging sound from PEX, doesn't keep up on cold nights upstairs

are very, very expensive. small ones like you have are very restrictive. lots of tradeoffs.

slow acting zone valves will not help expansion noises appreciably. might make some difference.

I have to admit I still can't follow your piping to tell if the 3 way valve is piped in properly. bit of a nest in there...

answers

@ January 31, 2012 10:24 AM in snap/banging sound from PEX, doesn't keep up on cold nights upstairs

1. yes, staple up systems can chew through pex over time. one of the many reasons this install method has fallen out of favor.

2. it would be good to know why that valve is not working. can't tell from your pics what the issue might be. IF the valve really is clogged and not piped incorrectly then you could replace with a motorized valve, yes, but it would only serve the same areas that valve serves, which I would guess is slab only? at the very least you'll want 2 temps if you are doing slab radiant and naked staple up pipe, so you won't do this from one valve, most likely.

3. if the reset curve is set properly you'll have close to constant circulation in the "lead zone" for each water temp nearly all the time.

4. it's highly doubtful you're going to maintain 71 with plateless system. but it's possible.

hmm

@ January 30, 2012 2:13 PM in Gypcrete, Warmboard, Quik Trak... Which should I choose

need to crank up our ceiling again to test.

several ways

@ January 30, 2012 12:52 PM in Gypcrete, Warmboard, Quik Trak... Which should I choose

dehumidification coil, ERV, tight home, condensation monitors. all necessary. but once humidity is controlled, should be all set...

depends

@ January 30, 2012 10:33 AM in Gypcrete, Warmboard, Quik Trak... Which should I choose

on warmboard we see very little spread indeed.

with plates/strapping, we don't see a lot of conduction past the plates, so there is a definite drop after you leave the aluminum and the wider your spacing the more you'll see.

I'd say electric wins

@ January 30, 2012 10:22 AM in Boiler for radiant floor heat

3412/5.7 = 598 BTUs/penny
92000*.9= 82800/200 = 414 BTUs/penny.

looks like electric will be a cheaper install and cheaper operating costs than propane to me.

for the foil/bubble wrap

@ January 30, 2012 10:19 AM in Aluminum distribution Plates?

you could throw it away, or you could put the time and effort into installing it under any joist radiant areas... but ignoring it from an R-value perspective and just getting a "little extra" out of it.

the fireplace will crank up, radiant will turn off. I second the idea of using floor sensing to avoid cold floors in that case. this is not a high mass radiant so as the fireplace dies out the radiant should just pick back up seamlessly.

make sure you zone the areas that will get fireplace heat by themselves though!

hmm

@ January 28, 2012 3:45 PM in Hammering on zone turn-on

that is interesting.

first, tap on the xpansion tank and if it sounds like a thud, it's not working. but I have to admit the no power hammer does have me puzzled. it would almost have to be a bad zone valve... can you make either one hammer, or only one?

ok

@ January 28, 2012 12:14 PM in Having trouble balancing WattsRadiant manifolds... showing 0 GPM

1. first, anyone saying you have "too much flow" is completely unqualified to help you. Stop talking to them. while that might explain a temperature drop to a manifold it is not important... it's unlikely you actually need 130 degrees at the manifold.

2. most likely problem is that you are pumping backwards. check the arrow/"suction bump" on your pump bodies. If not, ok, great, but it's fast to check.

3. can you get a flow reading if you close all but, say, one loop on a manifold?

you'll probably need to post a sketch of the system or some pics for much more diagnosis.

for radiant ceiling

@ January 28, 2012 12:03 PM in Gypcrete, Warmboard, Quik Trak... Which should I choose

we love radiant ceiling, but for heat only applications you can crank a ceiling's output with just strapping and light plates.

when we are looking at cooling as well, we go to warmboard-R to really maximize output. or if cost effectiveness is not the biggest deal for heating as well.

do your zone valves have end switches?

@ January 28, 2012 11:59 AM in Hammering on zone turn-on

if so, wire them so that the end switch turns on the pump. sounds like your pump is cranking up before the valves can open. this is bad for the pump, and your valves.

the other possibility that we've... ahem... run into once or twice... cough... is an undersized or malfunctioning expansion tank. hard to think that a 2 zone system would be too much... but then, a solo 110 is pretty big for 2 zones, how big are these zones?

outside of the radiant system

@ January 28, 2012 11:55 AM in radiant heat loss because of pex placement?

Gordan is doing a great job walking through the radiant with you... I won't go there and interfere, but keep on with him, he's bringing you to where you want to be with what you have as far as settings and like goes. Nice work Gordan!

but a couple of other questions, just in case. I'm suspicious about this drop to an apparently constant 64 degree room temp at any temp under a somewhat predictable outdoor temperature threshold:

1. what are you normally maintaining for a room temp in the basement area before it drops to 64?
2. do you have any air equipment in the house? Say, like an HRV/ERV? if so, specifically what, and is anything dedicated to the basement or primarily directed at the basement?

fuel?

@ January 28, 2012 11:43 AM in Boiler for radiant floor heat

what are your fuel options?

insulation under radiant

@ January 28, 2012 11:42 AM in Aluminum distribution Plates?

R10 between heat floors, R20 over a cool space, R30 over a cold space. minimum, and don't forget the all important rim joists!

a room by room heat load calculation should decide whether you need plates or not. You either need heavy gauge aluminum or you don't really need plates, as far as I'm concerned, in a joist situation, and 90% of systems or more should really use the heavy gauge aluminum.

lightweights can be better than nothing in a joist but you need a GOOD lightweight with good tubing contact, not something hammered out with a block of wood.

I believe

@ January 28, 2012 11:39 AM in Heating Edge baseboard with geothermal ?

if you look into it the output of heating edge baseboard is very similar to pretty much all "high output" baseboard options out there, such as Haydon 958 or 1050 series. and they are a lot cheaper.

it's not the tank

@ January 28, 2012 11:37 AM in GSHP with Buffer Tank - Advice Needed

but if you have very high radiant side flow rates you might blend it down with your return water.

In any other circumstance if you hot in and out at the top, water to the radiant would be about the same as water out of the geo unit after a short period of time... unless you're using a tank with dip tubes in it or something. in a case like that then you'd have to bring up the tank temperature over time and it will always lag behind geothermal load out temperature.

a more important question though is why are you messing with the water temp in the first place? was it not working?

while I like geo

@ January 27, 2012 8:56 AM in Altherma Measured COP

I have certainly seen a lot of badly performing systems out there. I do like the certainty of air source for sure.

I've been busy

@ January 26, 2012 3:53 PM in Altherma Measured COP

so haven't dug into the data recently but have had no observed changed in reliability or noticeable efficiency changes. the measurement was off because we were measuring a low delta-T so a full degree off in measurement was a significant output difference.

basically though operating costs on most systems should blow away LP. for GSHP, operating costs would typically be similar... depending on final heat load... though a little higher, the difference would be small and the initial cost *should* be much lower for the altherma in most cases. plus no one can screw up the well design, deplete the dirt of energy over a few seasons, etc.

you could argue that either way

@ January 6, 2012 9:04 AM in Buffer tank ,Mod Con, how to?

but I would stick with priority. You have a reset curve because you want one, presumably, so defeating it on a DHW call isn't ultimately that great of an idea.

lots of ways to keep a place warm

@ January 5, 2012 4:10 PM in Electric versus propane and oil.

without the primary heat source.

I have seen cheap secondary sources used or more commonly, a woodstove or space heater in those cases.

Pretty bad idea to commit to decades of higher energy costs in the name of a few days or so a year of downtime, max, in my mind.