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Tim

Tim

Joined on September 9, 2009

Last Post on April 6, 2014

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A FEW MORE QUESTIONS,

@ April 6, 2014 3:58 PM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

Terry,
I reread the whole thread, & I think you have more to do to get the max efficiency & more importantly comfort from your system.

Please post Pictures of your boiler & near boiler piping please.

If I read your descriptions correctly, I think you have boiler temp water circulating through radiant tubing. This is bad if its so. Max temp for tubing is in the 140* range, & you reported boiler temps in the 160 to 200* range.

that is how my system was piped when it was installed, it was not kind to the boiler or the tubing.

The goal would be to get just the right temp through the tube with a low wattage pump in constant circulation.

Tim

You are not missing anything,

@ April 4, 2014 4:04 PM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

The general comment I have found here is DON'T add DHW to your heat load.
The heat loss has gobs of fudge factor in it, so if you were to add the two, you would be even more oversized (oversized = bad)

your indirect size in gallons will determine first hour max flow rate, but rarely do you use max rate for even close to an hour.


Tim

DHW Math

@ April 4, 2014 1:38 PM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

Terry,
I searched the forum & came up with this post from July 2012;

"Boiler sizing for DHW"

Its very helpful in sizing the Indirect

for example:

2.5 gpm shower (low flo) x 50* dT (55* incoming 105* shower) x 8.33 (water lbs/gal) = 1041 btus/min x 60min = 62000 btu boiler ( for continuous shower )

substitute any changes in numbers to the formula
eg: our city water in winter park comes out of the ground at about 40* in the winter so the dt for me would be 65*

now any water stored in the indirect will lower the needed btus in that first hour, or be able to run a 2nd shower, washer, or dishwasher at the same time.

we have an 80gal indirect, with 100,000 net input boiler and we are unable to run that out even with 3 showers, dishwasher & washer going, when we are out skiing, all hell breaks loose after a big day on the mountain....

takeaway from that post: size the boiler to the HEATING load, & size the Indirect for the domestic load. its a lot cheaper to upsize the indirect (one time pmt) than pay every day in lowered efficiency to upsize the boiler.


carry on:

Tim

Not confident about results....

@ April 3, 2014 6:27 PM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

I could see where you would be concerned, 20k is a lot of btu's to be off.

Here is a table to figure out your design day temp.
As far as i know, you don't use the "coldest its been this winter" temp, but some percentile, which is why for example, Asheville is listed at 16*

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/bldrs_lenders_raters/downloads/Outdoor_Design_Conditions_508.pdf

LOTS of people on this site use the slant-fin program, I'm sure its accurate, otherwise I think there would be discussion on the topic.

I used slant-fin to figure out my heat load, and as born out of the actual runtime of the boiler at -32* its at least 30% oversized

Its been said on the site many times, picking the contractor is way more important than picking the boiler.

with your heatloss in hand, you can judge the contractors knowledge.
you reported you were working with a contractor, what does he say the heatloss is???
Has he done one? if not, you could ask him to do one & see what he comes up with.

keep the info coming,

Tim

Wind factor

@ April 2, 2014 5:54 PM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

Terry, congrats on the heat loss, nice 1st step.
97K sounds more like it, but its still 30 btus per square ft, seems like a lot, others may chime in on it.

There is a built in fudge factor to the heat loss, to account for things like wind i believe.

I remember a story a while back from Mark Eatherton, on a job he personally did the heat loss, designed & installed the system, he was at the house on a 'design day', the boiler was modulating at 50%. you could probably ping him for verification & more info.

If any of the local contractors are versed in the Locinvar or Triangle Tube boiler, you could pair it up with a goodsize indirect & will make a killer combo. You could even add a 30gal Boiler Buddy buffer tank to the heating side, would even eliminate the short cycling of the smaller zones in shoulder season.Go for the mod-con with constant circulation, you won't be unhappy with the results, I am very happy with my constant circulation systems

Tim

Heat loss program

@ April 1, 2014 2:26 PM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

Hi Terry,

Here is a program:

http://www.slantfin.com/index.php/professionals/heatloss

Your boiler sized at 130K is about 40 btus per square ft. even when you take into effect efficiency & altitude de-ratings, ill bet its still way oversized & your heat loss is way less than that.

My example, 2000 square ft house with lots of glass at 9000' in Winter Park, CO.
150,000 boiler @ 80% efficiency = 120,000 @ 9000' (2% per 1000') . = 98400 btus to the house. If you clock the gas input it matches it come up 99K so its close. When its cold in grand county (-30* is NOT uncommon) it only runs about 32% of the time. I came up with a heat loss of slightly more than 50,000 btus when I ran the numbers.

If I were to replace my CI boiler tomorrow, i would have installed the WHN055 55,000 btu Locinvar Knight. It modulates down to 11,000 btus
I have a 80 gal indirect so we still would have plenty of hot water with that setup.
Thats how much oversized mine was.
I am looking forward to hearing more about your install.

Tim

Do Your own heatloss !

@ April 1, 2014 10:16 AM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

you said: " I'm working with a contractor, and I'm going to leave the sizing to him. "

The contractor will be scared to death to suggest anything close to the correct size boiler, he will fall into the I dont care how much more it costs to run mode, because he won't be paying your gas bills.....

Do your own heatloss, Its not that hard.

There are HUNDREDS of posts on this forum of:
" My contractor oversized my boiler, now it short cycles, breaks down & costs me a fortune to run "

I have never seen a post about one that was not big enough.

Hope this helps:

Tim

HDE,

@ March 29, 2014 1:48 PM in Navien 100,000 btu heating

Where is that webinar, I would like to see it

Thank you:

Tim

Yea, that sounds more like it,

@ March 28, 2014 11:35 AM in Radiant Roof snow melt ??

But it is still 3x the cost for electric vs N gas. I did remove all the other charges, so to have a more accurate reflection of the true cost per btu of electric vs NG

Thanks for getting me on the right track<

Tim

Radiant Roof snow melt ??

@ March 28, 2014 11:01 AM in Radiant Roof snow melt ??

I saw ME's response on the post about capping the unused port on a wirsbo manifold.
It got me thinking on roof ice dam melting with hot water tubing vs electric heat trace cables.

In the CO Mtns, 1 KWH of elect = 10.2 cents and 1 therm of Nat gas = 8.44 cents. am I reading that correctly, even if you assume 80% eff on the gas, its still 23 times the cost per btu for electric?????

In the mountains we have to run heat trace on the roof OR pay someone to shovel & pickaxe the ice off the roofs.

How would one use hot water in tubes to clear a path for the melt water to run off the roof & down the gutters/downspouts?
PEX is not uv stabilized & I assume would rot quickly in the high UV Colorado sun.
Onyx Tubing run in a zigzag pattern just like the electric cables ??

Seems like a way to save a ton of money, my heat trace runs me about $150.00/mo on electric.

Thoughts?

Thank You:

Tim

Multi zone control

@ January 22, 2014 11:26 AM in Wifi thermostat for 20 zone radiant floor system

What Boiler &/or Controls are you using?
Is there an Occupied/unoccupied setting?
We are in Winter Park with a cast iron boiler & 8 zones of radiant in-floor.
I use 1 Bayweb Internet Thermostat & a relay operated on the Fan relay circuit to set a Home & Away Temp.
When "Away", the Bayweb is the master, I have it set at 55* The individual room stats are all set to 68 so the zones are open & anytime the heat is on they all get flow.
When I switch to "home", a couple of days before I arrive, the system reverts to normal where the individual stats control the zones.

Good luck,

Tim

Bad solder Joints on Honeywell control

@ January 22, 2014 10:58 AM in Issues with &amp; Replacement of Honeywell L8148E Aquastat

Ditto on the bad solder joints on the Honeywell control on my slant fin SX-150.
Same symptoms, intermittent no heat, not a good thing on a vacation home on the Colo Mtns when you are not there to know....
I replaced the control with a Beckett AquaSmart. There is some wiring needed to operate the vent damper, but otherwise a nice control.

If you need more info, let me know

Tim

Mets

@ January 13, 2014 11:02 AM in Does anyone have any contacts w/ NY METS org? Mad Dog

Were you able to get the assistance you needed?

My son in law, has played for the Mets in the past, and I believe he still has friends there, please contact me if you if you need help.

I'm not sure about the Mets, but most, if not all, of our Royals players are SOUTH for the off season.

Prayers sent his way.


Tim

The answer is,,,,,,,, It depends....

@ January 13, 2014 9:43 AM in Boiler Mate WH-7L

Thank You for the input guys,

Steve, The bottle seems intact, cool to the touch,

Paul, I take it you are not a fan, I've read here on the wall others with the same opinion.

When we bought our original house in '09, the WHS-80 had been replaced (no clue as to why) & has a 2003 date on it so I felt comfortable keeping it & adding the Boiler Buddy 80 to buffer the load. Our common wall neighbor still to theis day has his original WH-7L. Being that the 2 Boilermates are of 2 different designs, I just was not sure of the durability of the poly bottle. Seems like a good idea in theory....

Tim

Boiler Mate WH-7L

@ January 10, 2014 6:17 PM in Boiler Mate WH-7L

I recently purchased an additional property that will be using for short term Ski House rentals at Winter Park Ski Colorado.

The Heating is radiant in-floor (Gyp & Concrete) & has a Boilermate WH-7L indirect. It appears to have the original indirect watermaker, and if it is, it would have been installed in the late 90's so its 15 to 17 years old (I think).
The serial #: " BM 167814 BZ" if anyone knows how to translate.

I am going to have to do some modifications similar to what we did 4 years ago to our original WP house, where we had a high temp non-condensing boiler hooked to the in-floor tubing. The solution then was to install a buffer tank & a Tekmar 361 Injection control. The existing watermaker was a WHS-80 installed in 2003, and is working well (knock on wood)

My question is:
Am I running on borrowed time with the WH-7
Should I kill 2 birds with 1 stone & install a Turbomax Rev Indirect (Thinking model 44) as a watermaker & Buffer

Thank You in advance for commenting

Tim

IPC ii Manual

@ December 21, 2013 11:01 AM in weil -McLain IPC Manual

I have one. what info do you need?

HTH in any way I can,

Tim

Its a disaster...

@ September 18, 2013 12:17 PM in Boiler Piping

4 years ago I first came here with the same design on a house we purchased
Search " New House Q's ' for my original post & subsequent repairs.

I just purchased the twin to my original house with the same hydronic "designer & installer" so I am going to have the same repiping performed. some of the many problems are: no return water protection for the boiler, no high temp protection for the in floor tubing, 2 pumps, a 26-99 along with a 007, installed in series etc etc.

The boiler sensor is going in the buffer tank because I am using an ESBE for return water protection.

I'm not sure why I am concerned with expansion issues this time.

Thank You for the input

Tim

Here is the attachment

@ September 18, 2013 11:11 AM in Boiler Piping

Sorry, Still having attachment issues.....

1st Picture is the present setup, 2nd drawing is planed mod's

Tim

4 connection Buffer

@ September 18, 2013 11:06 AM in Boiler Piping

It will be a 4 pipe connection with the buffer as a hydraulic separator with a Tekmar 361 controlling an injection pump.

attached is a picture of the present setup

Thank You

tim

Boiler Piping

@ September 18, 2013 10:21 AM in Boiler Piping

What is the best practice piping method to add a buffer tank to a cast iron boiler? The piping to the BB will be in 1-1/4 black pipe. Is there any reason to be concerned about expansion forces on either piece of equipment? Should there be swing joints between the units, if so how many? & on both pipes or just 1? I do have layout flexibility, they can be installed right next to each other, or they can be installed on either side of with the boilermate between them.

Thank You

Tim

Reverse Indirects ???

@ May 18, 2013 11:56 AM in Longest lasting indirects

How would a Reverse Indirect perform in the tough situations mentioned above?
WATER CHEMISTRY, Hard Water and/or High Chlorides
HIGH WATER TEMP, Expansion Stress

As a homeowner with a 10 year old Amtrol 80 gal Blue Bullet, I'm just thinking ahead to have something picked out.

Tim

c-90?

@ March 30, 2013 1:40 PM in Issues with &amp; Replacement of Honeywell L8148E Aquastat

Rocky22,
I Cant find any reference to the c-90, possibly a v-90???
Anyway your description of the symptoms sounds remarkably similar to my problems with my slantFin SX-150. It used the same control (L8148E) and it drove me & my boiler man mad trying to find out why the boiler would intermittently not fire. It was suggested to replace the vent damper & gas control too, but I resisted until the failure was confirmed. Good call on my part, because it was a cold solder joint on the L8148E control relay. Its a DP relay, and the burner contacts were the problem, so the circulator would work ok. I chose to replace with the Becket Aquasmart (similar pricing, but features are included to save$$$) check it out,
http://www.beckettcorp.com/Product2/productdetail.asp?detailid=35
its a nice unit

Tim
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