Heating Help

Replacing a Boiler

@ May 21, 2013 1:27 PM in Need Help with Sizing

Hi - It sounds like you are on the right track.  Attached is a form which may be of help to you. Calculate the EDR room by room.  The EDR for the piping is taken care of in the 1.33  “Pickup Factor” .   As for the “cast iron wall convectors”, post some pictures and the measurements and I’m sure some here can give you an approximate EDR measurement.
   If you’re thinking of going with natural gas, you might want to consider a wet based boiler with a gas power burner as these are thought to be more efficient than the standard gas boiler. Smith and Slant Fin have wet based boilers approved for gas power burners. Use the “Search the Wall Function” button as there is of lot of info on this type of setup.

Switching to gas- The following will need to be taken into account:
1. If you don’t already have one, you will probably need a stainless steel chimney liner.
2. Is the gas service now connected to the house large enough to accomodate the new gas fired  boiler?
3. The bid should include the permits and proper removal of the old oil tank.

Be sure to take a look around this website as there's a lot of good info available. Here are a couple of links that will be of help to you:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/236/For-Homeowners/1490/How-to-have-a-boiler-replaced-without-getting-steamed

This is a good video on the importance of the proper configuration of the boiler’s piping
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping
If you don't already have them, there are some very good books on steam heating in Shop section of this website: The first one to read is called “We Got Steam Heat!”
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence
and the second one is "The Lost Art of Steam Heating”
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating
Both the books are easy reading and written so the home owner can understand them. A few evenings of reading will put you light years ahead in your knowledge of steam heating. 
Take your time and learn as much as you can before making a decision. Doing your homework first really pays off!
- Rod

        
 

Mad Dog

@ May 19, 2013 11:40 AM in mad dog

Hi- As it is the heating "off season", the traffic on the Wall is a bit slow at the moment. You might want to put your post on the Main Wall.
- Rod

Gerry Gill's Marvelous Mini Tube Steam System

@ May 8, 2013 2:28 PM in Hot Water to Steam Conversion

If I was putting in a new complete steam system I would definitely consider Gerry Gill’s amazing Mini -tube system.  Here are the links for any one who hasn’t already read up on it.  
http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/p/533/steam-mini-tube-description.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_wLnyul-S0
http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/p/547/gerry%27s-own-house-steam-mini-tube-system.html

As for radiators - I think a lot could be done with a fan boost fin tube similar in concept to the original Select Temp radiator.  Adding a fan boost really ups the BTU output and speeds the heat distribution, especially in a set back situation.  Jaga radiators have a similar boost system (DBE) available for some models of their HW radiators.  I haven’t checked it out while they are approved for steam there may be a possibly some of their models could be adapted for steam.  You sure can’t beat them for styling!
Here’s some video on D.B.E. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1t5E0LB4g   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyZUkclqmYc
Jaga catalogue: http://catalogue.theradiatorfactory.com/#home
Check the output tables for the DBE, The boost fan almost doubles the BTU output.
- Rod
 

Finding a Pro

@ May 3, 2013 1:27 PM in Suggestions for frustrated and confused homeowner

Hi- I should probably first state that I’m a homeowner and since I have a steam system know more about steam that I do hot water. Having lived in Vancouver and still having cousins that live in Victoria and Vancouver, I can understand your dilemma. It’s getting harder and harder to find competent people.
First of all I would suggest that you investigate the price differences between electricity and natural gas as it would seem to me cost wise that natural gas might be a better way to go. If you consider gas, this be sure to check that you have the proper size gas lines (to support gas heating) connected to your home and if an upgrade is necessary, whether you or the gas company pays for it.
 Finding a good heating pro - Rather than looking for a plumber in the plumbing section of the yellow pages I would try a heating supply/specialty company for possible leads to a good heating pro. There is a big plumbing heating supply company in B.C. called EMCO  http://www.emcobc.ca/   and they might be able to recommend someone to you.
My cousin in Victoria has a boiler made by a B.C. company,  IBC Boiler  http://ibcboiler.com/
You might want to contact them and ask for reference to a local heating pro that installs their boilers. I don’t know much about this unit but was impressed by what I saw when I was visiting my cousin last fall.
- Rod
 

      




 

Boiler Water Level

@ April 29, 2013 11:24 AM in Mysteriously Drained Boiler

Hi- Welcome to the “Wall”!   Attached is the I&O manual for your boiler. If you look at Fig. 18 on page 14 you will see that the boiler’s designed waterline level is 23 13/16 inches measured vertically from the base. This is what the waterline should be when the boiler isn’t operating and cold.   Use a Magic Marker and mark this height on your glass sight tube.  With the boiler not operating and cold, use the manual fill button on your water feeder to fill the boiler to the mark on the sight glass.  I might mention that when ever you add fresh water to the boiler turn on the boiler and bring the water to a boil as this drives off excess oxygen in the water which can be very corrosive and shorten the life of your boiler. Once you have established the correct waterline then you can monitor the water level regularly and determine if you have a leak in the system. The leak could be either a water leak or a steam leak.  It sounds as though your blow off valve on the LWCO (Low Water Cut Off) is the source of your leak.  The LWCO should be taken apart and cleaned annually and replaced every ten years. 
As to the waterfeeder, what make/model do you have? As there can be problems with automatic water feeders, a lot of the homeowners on here use the manual fill instead.

There are some very good books in the Shop section of this website. I would highly recommend you get one called, “We Got Steam Heat!” as it will be a great help to you.        
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence
It’s easy reading and written for the homeowner new to steam heating. An evening or two of reading will put your knowledge of steam heating light years ahead.
You might also want to look in the Resources and Systems section at the top of the website page as there is a lot of good information on steam systems there.
As the heating season has just about ended, you have plenty of time to read the book and decide what maintenance you need and areas you should leave to pro.  If you have questions don’t hesitate to ask them.
- Rod
           

Get a Real Steam Pro!

@ April 23, 2013 3:49 PM in wicked water hammer and boiling in pipes

Hi- As one of the rules on the "Wall" is that pricing is NOT discussed so I can't help you with your figures.
As to your situation - Somewhere I've read a saying that went,  "All steam pros are good plumbers, however, all plumbers aren't good steam pros!" and from my personal experience this seems to be the case.
From what I can see in your pictures and from what I have read as to "future plans" it would seem to me that you REALLY need to find a steampro.  Fortunately there is a very good steampro in your area. If it were me, I'd contact Charles Garrity, http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/221/Charles-Garrity-and-Son-Plumbing-and-Heating
He is a contributing member of "the Wall" and from his posts and from the positive remarks of other homeowner wall members, who have used his services, is obviously an excellent steampro.
Pursuing the direction you are now going seems to be "just chasing your tail" so to speak and not likely to result in a satisfactory conclusion.
- Rod

LWCO Data

@ April 23, 2013 11:20 AM in LWCO Clean out or Replace?

Hi John-  Attached below is the manual for your LWCO. On the lat page is the recommendation that it be completely disassembled and cleaned annually and completely replaced every ten years. As the LWCO is a very important safety device this device needs one particular attention. While parts are available I would follow the manual and completely replace the LWCO and the drain piping. A new LWCO should be available from your local plumbing supply or your can get them at Pex Suppy on the internet. http://www.pexsupply.com/
I flush my boiler an wet return annually. While you can flush it when it is still warm you don't want to add cold water to an empty warm boiler as the shock could crack the boiler castings. Allow it to cool before adding water. Cleaning out the mud leg can be a nasty job so prepare for a lot of muddy water. I find a wet and dry shop vacuum is a great help. In some case it may be easier to just go ahead and replace the Wet Return with new piping especially it it is really clogged up.
Here is a good video on boiler cleaning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1tw9rz-pUk&feature=share&list=UU7gDszI9COdVbfvJP2YdY5Q
The video was done by Gerry Gill, who is a very experienced Cleveland steam pro. You might want to take a look at his website  http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/ as he has a lot of good information about steam on there.
Also you might want to look in the Systems and Resources sections at the top of this page as there is a lot of good information there. Here's an article on cleaning Wet returns. http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/364/Boilers/145/How-to-Flush-the-Return-Lines-on-an-Old-Steam-System
- Rod

Planning for a New Boiler

@ April 18, 2013 7:38 PM in need new gas fired steam boiler for house

Hi- Welcome to  “the Wall”!   It would be a big help if we had some more information about your present steam system. What type of system is it? What exactly is wrong with your present boiler?  It would really help if  you would post a photo of your present boiler . Take the picture from back a ways so see can see the attached piping.  We can blow it up if we need to see more detail.  Also let us know the make and model of your present boiler. (It will be on a data plate on your boiler).

There is a lot of information available on this website . Here are a couple of links that will be of help to you:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/236/For-Homeowners/1490/How-to-have-a-boiler-replaced-without-getting-steamed

This is a good video on the importance of the proper configuration of the boiler’s piping
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

If you don’t have them already you might want to get a couple of books that are available in the Shop section of this website: The first one to read is called “We Got Steam Heat!”
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence
and the second one is "The Lost Art of Steam Heating”
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating
Both the books are easy reading and written so the home owner can understand them. A few evenings of reading will put you light years ahead in your knowledge of steam heating.

Price wise we can’t help you much as one of the few strict rules of this board is we don’t discuss pricing.  Since you have a few months available before you need heat again you have lots of time to research the subject of steam heating and that will put you in a far more knowledgeable position to decide which direction you should take.  Generally the best approach is to just replace the present boiler. If you have had steam in the past, you won’t be very happy with hot air.
-Rod

Additions to Your Steam System

@ April 17, 2013 4:58 PM in Adding Radiant heat to a 1 pipe steam system

Hi - Jamie has given you some really good answers to your questions. It can be done but it needs to be very well thought out first as there are a lot of calculations and requirements to be considered. Jamie mentioned getting the book, "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" which is available on this website at this link: http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating
It's written so that the homeowner or pro, new to steam heating can understand it and will give you all the info you need to figure out the changes you want to do in your present steam system. Also look in the Resources and Systems sections at the top of this page as there is a lot of good info available on steam and hot water / radiant systems. Once you have a better understanding of steam and hot water /radiant systems, you'll be in a better position to make a decision on what needs to be done.
- Rod

Reservoir Tank

@ April 14, 2013 10:38 PM in CondensateTank...Why?

Hi- Gerry Gill has a good article and pictures on reservoir tanks on his website.
Here's a link to it: http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/p/640/adding-extra-water-to-an-existing-steam-boiler.html
- Rod

Stick to Gravity if Possible.

@ April 13, 2013 1:30 AM in CondensateTank...Why?

Hi- I would avoid a tank and pumps if I could. Both Dave Bunnell and Gerry Gill have done multiple boilers with gravity returns. Check Gerry's website as I believe he has pictures of multiple boiler setups. If you run out of water you can always add a reservoir setup.  If I was you I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry till I got every thing figured out. The vent(s) to the chimney probably one of the primary considerations as to the placement and orientation of the boilers. You then need to figure out pipe sizing and control configurations.
- Rod

Dual Risers

@ April 13, 2013 1:15 AM in Drop Header:Which way to Go?

Hi- I would disregard the drawings. I think what they are trying to accomplish is to alleviate the potential problem of a cockeyed waterline (See diagram on page 49 of "The Lost Art...." as the way it is piped in the drawing does nothing for the velocity. If you want to use the second exit port I'd pipe both risers in 3 inch and then use a bell reducer to reduce to the smaller exit port. As Danny mentioned each exit port needs its own individual riser to the header. Using two individual risers will slow the velocity and allow water to settle out of the steam.
- Rod

Leak?

@ April 11, 2013 10:42 PM in Diagnosing leaking pipe - condensate vs supply

Hi- You didn't mention what the indications you have that there actually is a leak?
- Rod

1 pipe TRV

@ April 11, 2013 5:15 PM in A Steam Odyssey: Midco Low-NOx Burner Oil to Gas Conversion Project

Yes, the one pipe TRV needs a what I called a "shut off" cycle to function properly. The system pressure needs to be zero or actually in a slight vacuum so that air can re enter the radiators through the vacuum breaker.  Since the OFF periods of a modulated burner could be much farther apart, it may then be necessary to introduce the occasional planned shut off period so that air can reenter the radiators.
- Rod

Hear Nothing, See Nothing!

@ April 11, 2013 3:43 PM in is this where we fall behind other countries?

Hi Nick- I was at first rather surprised by the abrupt (rude?) reply but then after thinking it over think it probably has some legal angle involved. If they can say that their strict policy to email suggestions is "we hear nothing, see nothing" then that is a defense against someone suing them by claiming that their emailed idea was stolen by Boeing and Boeing owed them royalties.  No matter how ridiculous the claim, there are many bottom feeding lawyers would take such a case just for a "get lost" settlement. I think one could make a good argument the reason we fall behind other countries is that we have a multitude of scum bag lawyers that far out weigh the good ones.
- Rod

Venting

@ April 8, 2013 11:12 PM in wicked water hammer and boiling in pipes

I have no idea why it was done that way other than very few heating professionals really understand Steam Heating and especially piping counterflow systems. Properly piped driplines are necessary as in a counterflow system, the condensate drains towards the boiler, the purpose of the drip lines is to divert the returning water away before it drops into the steam stream rising from the boiler.  What the  possible reasoning for installing vents in that part of the system I don’t have a clue.

 Radiators-    Since we’ve discussed the boiler already  it may now be beneficial to take a look at the rest of your system.  On a one pipe system the valve on the steam pipe should be fully open and the radiator sloped slightly towards the steam pipe end.  The slope needs to be just enough to “encourage” the condensate that collects in the radiator to leave. Check the radiator slope using a carpenter’s bubble level.
 Radiator Vents- Since your steam mains don’t have main vents that means that the radiator vents have to vent both the steam mains and the radiator to which they are attached. To make of for the lack of main vents people quite often use very high capacity vents like the Heat Timer Vari Valve on the radiators. These large capacity vents produce a lot condensate (water) which can interfere with e the incoming steam and result in water hammer.  There is an old steam adage:
“Vent your mains fast (large capacity vents) and your radiators slowly!” which in my experience seems pretty true.
What are the make and model of the radiator vents you are now using?

Water Hammer- Attached is an explanation of water hammer in steam systems.
The following is a link to list of steam system problems and cures which has a good section on water hammer.  You can tell a lot from when it occurs in the steam cycle -http://www.heatinghelp.com/article-categories/320/Steam-Heating-Problems-and-Solutions
- Rod

TRV Cycle

@ April 8, 2013 7:56 PM in A Steam Odyssey: Midco Low-NOx Burner Oil to Gas Conversion Project

Hi Mark- I was helping a friend today with 1 pipe TRVs and it occurred to me that with a modulated 1 pipe system (with a burner that modulates rather than occasionally shuts completely OFF) maybe some sort of periodic "shut off cycle" function might be nice to have to allow air a chance to get back into the radiators so that the 1 pipe TRV(s)  would work properly. Just a thought
- Rod

False Waterline Diagram

@ April 8, 2013 7:26 PM in SF TR50:New water level vs. Old

Hi Jamie- I think this is the diagram you are mentioning.

Counterflow Boiler Piping

@ April 8, 2013 6:54 PM in wicked water hammer and boiling in pipes

Hi- Knowing that both mains are counterflow helps clear things up.  The vent on Main “B” and the piping made me think that it was a Dry Return rather than a drip.  As I see it this is what you need.
Drip Lines
1.  Neither vents “A” or “B” are necessary (or do any good) and should be removed.  
2. The drip lines from both Main “A” and Main “B” need to have enough slope so they drain easily.  No other lines should be connected into them.
3. The drip lines from Main “A” and    Main “B” shouldn’t connect until they are well below the boiler water line level.  ( See attached photos of a really nice dual main counterflow system done by Steve Gronski, a Rhode Island steam pro)
4. Steam bearing pipes like boiler near piping and steam mains needs to be done in threaded black pipe. Driplines and Wet Return piping can be done in either black pipe or copper.    

Main Vents - On a counterflow main, the main vent(s) should be located at the end of the main farthest from the boiler. (See attached diagram)   Large capacity main vents are necessary so that air is able to quickly evacuate from each steam main. If you can tell us the size and length of each main we can calculate how much venting you need for each main.

Header Pipe - The header pipe’s function is to dry out the steam by separating the water from the steam.  The header pipe needs to be sloped very slightly towards the equalizer pipe so that water will drain away back to the boiler.  I agree with Jamie, on the pipe going from the header to Main “A”, the 90 degree elbow connecting it to the header needs to be changed as the way it is now has to be sucking up water into the main.  Rotating the header tee slightly and using a 45 degree elbow should fix this problem
( See the attached photos)

Additional Boiler Riser- I can’t help but think that adding a second boiler exit riser would help the system a lot as  it would cut the exit velocity of the steam in half. Less velocity means less water is carried up with the steam. It should be fairly easy to add a second riser.

Boiler Water - Are you familiar with skimming and was the boiler skimmed?
"The Book" will be a big help to you. My copy has paid for itself many times over!
As always, let us know if you have questions.
- Rod                                 

Steam Mains

@ April 8, 2013 2:14 PM in wicked water hammer and boiling in pipes

Hi- Well I’m now a bit confused myself as to what type of steam mains you have.
  Let’s go back to the basics. Steam mains carry water (H2O) in two forms: 1. Steam and 2.Condensate (water). Steam flows (floats)  along in the top half of the main and condensate (water) flows in the bottom half of the main.  When both the steam and water flow the same direction we call it a “Parallel Main” When steam and condensate (water) flow in opposite directions we call it a “Counterflow Main.”
    
Since steam is a gas, it is able to travel in any direction, up, down, sideways. Steam floats along and travels from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure. Condensate (water)  on the other hand, is a liquid and it needs slope (like a children’s slide) to make it travel back to the boiler. I find it helps if you think of yourself as a molecule of steam traveling out to the radiator and then condensing back to a liquid (water) and then sliding (along with lots of other water molecules) ideally the slope is a constant “down hill” and we all quickly get back to the boiler. If say the slide changes direction and suddenly goes “up hill” a lot of molecules are going to get caught in the “dip” which causes a “traffic jam” resulting in a backup of water molecules. This backup can interfere with the steam stream and cause it to “collapse” (condense) back to water. 
Diagrams-                                   
Counterflow Main- On a counterflow main, the highest part of the main in the end farthest from the boiler. The steam steam travels “up” the main and the condensate (water) flows “down” the main back to the boiler. (See attached diagram) The pitch on a counterflow main should be 1 inch in 10 feet and the slope should be constant with NO dips! The main vent on the counterflow main should be located at the farthest end of the main away from the boiler.

Parallel Main- On a Parallel flow main, the highest part of the main is the end closest to the boiler. The steam travels “down” the main from the end above the boiler to the end farthest away from the boiler.  The condensate also travels towards the end of the main farthest away from the boiler into a return pipe that returns the condensate back to the boiler The return pipe naturally has to be sloped so that water is able to run downhill back to the boiler.  The pitch on a Parallel Main /return needs to be 1 inch in 20 feet. 

You need to check your steam mains and determine what type they are and also check for sag (“dips”) in the piping.

Yellow outlined piping- As mentioned above, steam travels from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure. High pressure, even though it may only be 1 PSI or less is provided by the boiler and low pressure by the escaping air from the vents or by vacuum in the radiators caused by condensing steam.  This pressure differential is what moves the steam from the boiler to the header pipe, continuing  up the risers and through the steam main and in the radiators. The yellow outlined piping connects directly between the start of the steam main and the return pipe which provides a path for the steam to travel directly to the area of low pressure (the end of the steam main/ return pipe without going to the radiators (“short circuiting”)

Let’s first check your steam mains “A” and “B” and determine what type they actually are and then we can continue on from there. I suspect that because of the drip line that Main "A" was (is) originally a counterflow main and Main "B" because it has a return pipe, was (is) a parallel flow main. It's fairly common to have a steam system which has steam mains of each type.  
    As others have mentioned it would be a good idea to get Dan’s book titled “The Lost Art of Steam Heating” which is available in the Shop section of this website.
Here’s a link to it:
 http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating
It’s easy reading and written so the homeowner new to steam can understand it and having it, we can then refer you to pages in the book that will answer the question you have far better than we could.
- Rod
           
 

Piping

@ April 8, 2013 3:01 AM in wicked water hammer and boiling in pipes

HI-  I looked over your pictures and it would seem that you have two steam mains. The one I labeled "Main A" appears to be a counter flow main and the main that I labeled "Main B" appears to be a parallel flow main. Check and see if the "Slope" the mains is in the direction I indicated by the purple arrows. (See attached photo) 

The other thing I noticed is that in the photos it doesn't show a pressure gauge. Is there a pressure gauge on the boiler? You should have a 0-30 PSI pressure gauge as this is required by code. Most of the people on here also install an addition 0-3 PSI pressure gauge as it makes it easier to read low pressure. The pressure of your system shouldn't run higher than 2 PSI.  Running at too high a pressure can be the cause the hammering that you are experiencing.

The piping in the yellow boxes ( see attached photo) should be eliminated as it causes the steam pressure to "short circuit"  to the return. Like wise the Main Vent labeled "Main Vent "A" (circled in yellow) as it has no benefit where it is located, On a counterflow main, the main vent should be located at the far end of the main from the boiler just after the last radiator lateral.
The Main Vent  (Circled in red) labeled "Main Vent "B" is in the correct location when used on a Parallel Main.  Let us know what the make and model number is as I suspect it is undersized and more venting capacity would be of help to you.

While you need to eliminate the piping outlined in yellow, the drip pipe on the counter flow main needs to be  lead down so that it can join the return piping at a location well below the boiler's waterline.  On a counterflow main this drip line drains the returning condensate back to the boiler so that it doesn't interfere with the steam supply from the header.  All this maybe a bit confusing so don't hesitate to ask questions.
- Rod

Info Sources

@ April 7, 2013 5:33 PM in Water boils into pipes.

Hi Dan- Once you get your near boiler piping straightened out, your system should work far more efficiently.
 Here’s some more info sources  that may be of help to you.
1. This is a video of Dan’s on the importance of near boiler piping:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

2. This is a link to Gerry Gill’s website which has a lot of great info on steam heating: 
http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/
Gerry Gill is a very experienced Cleveland steam pro. Be sure to look at his steam installations for examples of great dropheader piping. Also be sure to look over the info on venting.

3.Tekmar 279.  As you have a multiple unit building you might want to look into a Tekmar 279 for control.   http://tekmarcontrols.com/products/hvac-systems/279.html
For more info look in the Promotional and Technical sections of the above link.
- Rod