Heating Help

Radiators - Steam or Hot Water?

@ May 23, 2012 11:21 PM in What's best: Replace Radiator with Heat pump/HVAC or...

Hi- You say a 'radiator heating system" - are the radiators /boiler hot water or steam?  Do you have natural gas available?
- Rod

Steam Pro

@ May 18, 2012 10:35 AM in Looking for a Steam expert in NYC

Hi- Take a look in the "Find a Contractor" section at the top of this page and scroll down past the zip code to the "States" section.  There are quite a few listed for NY. Actually this is a very good time to have your system checked out. In the fall, especially at the first cold snap, things are pretty hectic.
- Rod

Hard to Say

@ May 17, 2012 2:11 PM in to convert or not to convert

Hi- Normally from an economical standpoint it would probably be best to just refurbish the steam system, but since you have the walls and ceiling open, as you mention, it maybe the time to consider all your options. The key to success is finding a heating professional who is competent with both steam and hot water. There are some really good guys out there and also a LOT of incompetent ones. The good guys will be happy to provide you with references and make sure you do your homework and check them out. Be suspicious of the "lowest bid" as you generally get what you pay for and with fuel prices high, a "cheapie" installation with probably cost you far more in the long run in both fuel and comfort.
      You might tell us where you are located and maybe we can recommend someone to you. Also you might want to take a look in the "Find a Contractor" section at the top of this page. Scroll down to the "states section" and see if there is someone located local to you.
- Rod

File Format

@ May 17, 2012 12:59 PM in Posting pictures

Hi Henry- This website I believe will only accept the following attachments: Photos in standard jpg format and pdf files.  Some of the newer jpg or png photo formats it seems to ignore.
- Rod

Raising a Radiator

@ May 17, 2012 12:46 PM in Raisng 1 pipe steam radiator by 2"

Hi- Paul & Bob have given you viable options. Paul's suggestion of just replacing the nipple with one of the correct length is probably the best approach. Bob's suggestion of adding a coupling with a short nipple might work though it maybe a bit too long. If you only need an inch more length then there is an adapter available from Mc Master Carr   http://www.mcmaster.com/#       Part # 44605K661 for an 1 1/4 " adapter.
  While you  could do the replacement yourself, you might want to have a plumber do this for you as he has the tools and experience.  You should be able to use the old valve. If you do replace the valve make sure it is for steam and as Bob mentioned you have to replace the whole valve including the piece that connects the valve to the radiator. Paul has already mentioned the need to make sure the radiator slopes toward the valve. This can be done by putting a couple of shims (the thickness of a couple of stacked quarters ($0.25) under the radiator feet on the far end of the radiator away from the valve. The slope can be very slight, just enough to "encourage" the condensate (water) to drain out the inlet pipe and back to the boiler.
- Rod

Maine Steam Pro

@ May 12, 2012 3:28 PM in Installation Plan - dual steam

Hi- In Maine it isn't easy to find some one who is competent with steam heating.  There are a lot of people who think they are but in my experience few of them actually are.
You might want to contact Ken Viger.  He has a lot of experience with steam and does very nice work.
Ken Viger
K&J Heating, Inc
168 Lewiston Rd
Gray, ME 04039
(207) 415-0873
kviger@maine.rr.com

- Rod

Boiler Replacement

@ May 12, 2012 12:33 PM in older neighbor wants to replace oil boiler with gas- what to do

Hi- Look in the Find a Contractor section at the top of this page. Scroll down to the states section to Virgina. Dan Foley is in Lorton. I'd email him and mention you are from "the Wall" and if he didn't go as far south as you are, could he recommend someone competent in your area.
- Rod

Location

@ May 12, 2012 11:06 AM in older neighbor wants to replace oil boiler with gas- what to do

Hi- You're right on about the importance of system design and installation. Let us know where you are located and perhaps we can recommend someone competent.
- Rod

One Pipe to Two Pipe Radiator

@ May 10, 2012 2:27 PM in Pushing the limits of radiator tapping size

I ran my drip into the Wet Return and left the radiator vent in place on the radiator.  I did this for two reasons:  I wanted to be able to throttle down the radiator and it got me past some problems caused by  suspected  “knuckleheading” on the intake pipe buried somewhere in the walls. I would have  ripped out the wall however since the house is old and the walls are wood lath and horse hair plastic, didn’t want to go there.

The two considerations you have to keep in mind are:
1. How does the condensate get back to the boiler?
2. How does the air escape from the radiator?

If you use a trap on the exit pipe, you would still need someway for the air to escape.
You also have the problem of where do you lead the condensate. You can’t just lead it straight to the dry return as there is steam present there (unless there is a trap between the steam main and the dry return)   If you don’t have a tapped hole on the radiator for a radiator vent or are using a radiator trap you can install a vent on the drip line. Since the radiator is on the second floor, you shouldn’t have a problem with the “B” dimension, but keep that in mind if you put a vent on the return line. It would still need to lead to the Wet Return or a Loop Seal.

If it isn't too much trouble, maybe you should just try the 1 1/4 valve to 3/4 pipe used with a very slow vent just to see if that has a chance of working.  I would do it fairly early in your renovating just in case you need to go back and do Plan “B”.
- Rod

One Pipe to Two Pipe Radiator

@ May 9, 2012 11:18 PM in Pushing the limits of radiator tapping size

Probably the easiest is to run a drip line straight to the Wet Return and install a radiator vent on the radiator to allow the air to escape. (TLAOSH - Page 125- diagram left hand column)  You avoid having to use traps this way. If routing to a dry return is a better option, you can use a "loop seal" (TLAOSH - page 88)  with a Vent on the radiator.
Possibly the pros have a better suggestion.
- Rod

Steam Pro

@ May 9, 2012 10:28 PM in BOILER LEAK

Hi- You're fortunate to live in Cleveland as there is a very good steam pro, Gerry Gill, located there.   Here's a link to his website:
http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/
I'd give him a call and ask him to take a look at your system. He will be able to tell you what options are available.  Very few heating professionals really understand steam heating and of those that do, Gerry Gill is at the top of the list!
- Rod

2 Pipe Steam

@ May 9, 2012 2:52 PM in Pushing the limits of radiator tapping size

Hi- If it's reasonably feasible, I'd hook it up as two pipe steam. I did this with an over sized bathroom radiator so I could throttle it a bit as it was turning the bathroom into a sauna..On the other hand it was very nice to be able to have a WARM bathroom by opening up the valve when you came home in the dead of winter.  I still have thoughts about putting a TRV on the intake side but since the throttling seems to work fine that may not come about for a while... if ever.
- Rod

Summer Storage

@ May 8, 2012 3:13 PM in Commercial steam boiler - drain for summer?

Hi- Having a commercial boiler, you might want to look at Rhomar Water's suggestions.
 http://www.rhomarwater.com/products/residential-steam-system/  Take a look at their Boiler Pro 903 data sheet.  If you have any questions, give them a call, they are nice people to work with.
- Rod

Dual Steam Piping Problems

@ May 8, 2012 1:34 PM in Installation Plan - dual steam

Hi- Where are you located?  We can see some pretty bad problems from the photos which makes us wonder what else is screwed up. Could you tell us more about your system. Does it have a condensate tank and pump?  I'm also wondering like NBC why did the one boiler fail?
- Rod

Power Flame X4M Actuator

@ May 7, 2012 12:19 AM in Power Flame Model X4M HTD

Frank - Thanks for the reply. It seems that finding controls to do the modulating / staging for a residential steam system is as big a problem as finding a 2 stage or modulating burner.  I found some info on the actuator Power Flame uses and have attached it below. 
Anything going in the way of  a residential 2 stage oil burner yet ?  I haven't heard any more about the Carlin EZ H2L
- Rod

Burying the Wet Return

@ May 6, 2012 11:30 PM in How do I properly bury the condendate return

Hi- As I've always buried the piping in a trench, I'm afraid I can't give you much info on burying it in the cement. Copper piping has been used a lot in cement for radiant heating so it should work okay. You might want to post your question on the Main Wall and /or the radiant forum as the radiant people probably have more experience with this.  The concerns would be expansion of the copper  (approx 2 inches per 100 ft ) and that any additives to the cement were acidic. (like fly ash)
   I wouldn't make part of the wet return pipe larger for a "reservoir" as I don't think it would serve much purpose and you are adding cost and more joints. Having it all the same size will also blow out any sediment easier.  Pipe Size-  according to Dan's LAOSH,  Page 90, you can get away with  a 1 inch wet return if your total EDR is less than 700 sq. ft.  Be sure to use full port ball valves so you don't have any restrictions.''

Edit:  I see Steamhead posted while I was putting together an answer for you. What he mentioned about the pea gravel and expansion is why I buried mine in sand though in the future if I bury a line it will be in pea gravel per his suggestion. He is a very experienced steam pro so you should put a lot of regard to his suggestions, I sure do.
- Rod

Burying the Wet Return

@ May 5, 2012 10:31 AM in How do I properly bury the condendate return

Hi-  You need to protect the pipe from the surrounding elements (soil, cement etc) as in a lot of older houses they dumped the coal ash (clinkers) on the dirt basement floor and then at a later time cemented over them and this makes the soil very acidic which isn't good for copper pipe.  I used 20 mil - 2" x 100 ft. "pipe wrap" which is like a super sized black PVC electrical tape. Like electrical tape,it's self sticking. Any plumbing supply should have it.   Be sure to wrap the pipe to several inches above the finished cement level and then back fill the trench with clean sand so the pipe is surrounded by the sand.

   Since the buried pipe forms a loop that can trap dirt and crud you should install fitting so that you are able to flush out the buried return occasionally. I've attached a diagram below.just  to give you an idea of the basic  flushing setup. You can move the "flushing outlet"  to the boiler end of the wet return and place the shut of valve on the pipe connecting the equalizer. That way the setup will flush the whole wet return.

If you don't want to go to the trouble of burying it, another alternative is to run the Wet Return along the wall and box it in to hide it.
- Rod

Power Flame Model X4M HTD

@ May 4, 2012 4:22 PM in Power Flame Model X4M HTD

Hi Tim- I've been closely following your posts on burners in the Steam Heating Association thread on the Main Wall and was wondering about the  Power Flame Model X4M HTD burner.  https://data.powerflame.com/support/supportdocs/Catalog/pdf/type-x4/X4-Installation.pdf
As this is already an "off the shelf" product wouldn't it work for what you are trying to accomplish?  I've been looking at the unit for a long time but still have to wait till natural gas is available here in rural Maine (promised in a "a year or two")  I'm really glad to see the organization of the Steam Association and I agree with you that the availability of a modulating or a 2 stage residential burner in both oil and gas to boast boiler efficiency will decide the future fate of steam heating. 
- Rod

Reconfiguring the Return piping

@ May 3, 2012 9:20 PM in I've got a Head Knocker I want to move!

Hi- If it is more convenient you can run drip lines straight down from the ends of the steam mains.  If they aren't located there already, you'll have to install the main vents near the end of the steam main before it drops down.  I've attached a diagram below showing drips and new Wet Return.
I used copper for my Wet Return and am sold on it as it stays very clean. I have a flushing setup similar to what i put in the drawing. I just hook up two garden hoses, one for water in and one for water out and flush it out every summer. If you use copper and flush it fairly regularly, you should have problems if the Wet Return is a bit long.   If the wet return piping is now crossing the the center of the floor, you can reroute it along a wall if that's more convenient.   A bit of slope in the Wet Return is nice but not necessary. At my neighbor's home we moved the wet return to over to the wall and then boxed it in to hide the bare piping as he wanted to make a finished room in the basement.
- Rod

Upgarding Your Heating System

@ May 1, 2012 3:23 PM in Treasurer-Condo Assoc

Hi- Some of the figures you mention don't sound quite right though it is hard to interpret them without a lot more information. A complete (all new components) modern mod/ con hot water system is generally more efficient than a steam system but in reality the efficiencies aren't as much as the brochures would lead you to believe. Mod /con boilers are also have shorter life spans before replacement and require more maintenance. (Mod/cons aren't very forgiving and doing frequent regular maintenance is directly related to the life span)  Depending on the situation it may be more prudent to go with a regular hot water boiler rather than a mod /con boiler, which then brings the efficiency difference much closer to a modern steam system.  If you are trying to work out your payback time period of switching over to hot water, I would use the efficiency figures of a regular hot water boiler in the calculations as that way you won't get any nasty surprises.

You didn't mention whether your present steam system is one or two pipe or whether they plan to use the present steam radiators for hot water.  If they are planning to use the present radiators there several things you need to consider. With steam, the radiators run at less than 2 PSI pressure, with hot water it will be ten times more pressure so considering the age of the radiators there is a potential leak problem. Using the same radiator for hot water the heat output will be less. A square foot of steam radiation is equal to 240 BTU Net per hour. A square foot of hot water radiation @ 190 degrees F is equal to 185 degrees F Net per hour.  Since mod/cons run at a much lower temp than 195 degrees, the heat out of the radiator is much less.
In a modernized steam system, boilers can also be ganged together. I've attached below a system done by Boiler Professionals, a Chicago heating company. This results in a big savings as you use only one boiler in the fall and spring when the heating requirements are minimal and then add more boiler(s)  on line as it gets colder. Having multiple boilers also gives you backup redundancy, if one of the boilers shuts down and needs repair, you still have some heat.
It would seem you have two choices: one being to replace your present system with hot water or the second replace your steam boilers with a modernized steam system. The big factor in replacing your steam system is to find a pro that really understands steam and unfortunately this isn't all that easy. You might want to check in the Find a Contractor section at the top of this page. Scroll down past the zip codes section to the "States" as this works better. I would also monitor this board for a few days as being the off season for heating, a lot of the pros don't come on as often. If you have more questions let us know and we'll do our best to help you out. 
- Rod

Boiler Cleaning

@ May 1, 2012 1:46 PM in Steam boiler making bad odors?

Hi - The stuff they call TSP in the big box stores really isn't TSP as in most places TSP is restricted and there fore hard to find. Read the fine print on the label and you will generally see that it says it is a "TSP substitute". Whether this will work or not is questionable and might cause you more problems than it helps. You might want to contact  Rhomar Water  http://www.rhomarwater.com/products/residential-steam-system/  as they are very helpful and can give you recommendations. Their products aren't as cheap as plain washing soda or TSP but they work which saves you a lot of hassle.  What is causing the odor may be stagnant water in the boiler and / or wet return so cleaning and flushing those would be a good start. As NBC mentioned you could try washing soda (Arm & Hammer)  but with
that, you don't want to let the boiler make steam so it only cleans the boiler and not the wet return. (Below I've attached Peerless's instruction on using washing soda for cleaning/skimming boilers)  Here's a article of Dan's on cleaning Wet Returns that might be helpful to you.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/364/Boilers/145/How-to-Flush-the-Return-Lines-on-an-Old-Steam-System
I've never used it but you might also want to look at Hercules Scout which according to the spec sheet has TSP.  http://www.herchem.com/specs/scout.pdf  I would call the tech dept and ask how it works on odors.
- Rod

Main Vents & Antlers

@ April 30, 2012 8:20 PM in Main Vent

Hi- The reason for moving the vent back 15 inches is that in some situations steam can push slugs of water down the pipe which slam into the elbow. If the vent is mounted directly on the elbow, this can damage the vent. In your case the vent is mounted well above the elbow and adding a couple of elbows will further protect the vent.  (Water slows down when it goes around corners)  The big thing is to have good drainage away from the vent so that any water that reaches it will immediately drain away.   The Hoffman 4A vent which you have now is pretty small venting capacity wise.  A Gorton #1 would give you 3 times more venting capacity. A Gorton #2 about 10 times more venting capacity and a Hoffman #75 about 5 times the venting capacity.   Since you have a small system maybe just replacing the 4A with one or two  Gorton #1(s) would be sufficient. Put it (them) on an "antler "  (see attached diagram) and if you want to add more venting it is easy to just add to the tee. Unlike radiators you can't over vent on main vents.
   Hoffman and Gorton Vents are available from a local heating supplier or on the internet at Pex Supply.  http://www.pexsupply.com/

Testing vents-  DO NOT test vent operation with your bare hands! Live steam can give you a very bad burn!   The best way I have found is to use a strip of newspaper about a foot long and hold it near the vent opening. The air flowing out the vent opening will move the paper and when the vent closes, the movement will stop.
Black pipe is best as the zinc on galvanized pipe can flake off and possibly plug the vent hole which is pretty small. Changing the vents is fairly easy so you could probably do this yourself if you are inclined.
- Rod