Heating Help

A lot of controversy

@ May 23, 2012 3:38 PM in Electrical question

I'm not an electrician.  I've had some of these same questions, I asked our local building-electrical inspector and two electricians, and got three somewhat different answers and explanations.  My understanding is that you will need to use a 2 pole breaker, some say you can use 2 single pole with handle ties.  You have to mark that circuit so anyone at the point of origin knows it is a multiwire circuit.  If you use only single pole breakers and  shut off the AC to work on it and needed the outlet for tools etc the neutral could carry current and it would create a dangerous condition.  Both poles must be shut offf which renders the outlet useless in this case.  You also have to be carefull depneding how multiwire circuits are wired, if you remove a neutral you can potentially put 240V where you don't want it.  Code also requires a GFCI outdoors which may pose a problem on a multiwire.  Some jurisdictions are trying to get away from the multiwire circuit for safety reasons.  I have some in my shop and house with no issue, but someone not familiar with the system could run into a problem.  Eventually 12/3 or 14/3 etc will oly be used in 240V circuits or lighting circuits.  Have a pro guide you on this.  MIke

Flow Issue

@ May 17, 2012 5:09 PM in Need help converting from oversized CI Rad to CI baseboards

I would have to say it is a flow issue of not getting the water 170 degrees or otherwise to these two rooms.  We know the other rooms upstairs are capable of heating or overheating.   Did it work before it was changed from a single zone?  Most likely something is out of balance or restricted.  As I said not experienced in all the fine art aspects of true gravity systems.  The original systems were well designed and installed and worked well before pumping became poular.  Post some pictures and a layout or piping schematic and more knowledgeable experts will weigh in.  I looked at the heat loss again.  Basic info with a few changes.  Added a window, upgraded to single pane with storms, kept attic insulation at 10" floor is still over heated space, 27.5' outside wall, still 3 1/2 frame wood siding with insulation and drywall, still came in at 5000 BTUH.  No doubt the 12000 BTUH was over sized.  You could wrap the outside walls with with baseboard and run lower temps, but I don't how well they work with gravity.  Address the flow problem first and base your heat loss on a value after you do your upgrades.   Mike

Heat Loss

@ May 17, 2012 3:10 PM in Need help converting from oversized CI Rad to CI baseboards

Your heat loss seems high.  What are some more details, window size and type, length of outside walls, wall type, frame, siding,  brick insution in walls, ceiling inside and outside temp, good window seals leaky, drafty etc where are you located.    I took a quick stab using room size, 2 3'x4' windows 27' ouside wall, 10" insulation in ceiling, second story room over heated space, single pane glass,  non weather stripped doors and windows, 3 1/2 " insulation in frame walls, 70 degrees inside 10 degrees outside.  Kind of some worse case factors and only came up with 5200 BTUH using Slant Fin software. .   If water temp is 170 what is at this room?  Depending on system layout you might not be getting the water temp at the radiator.  If the existing is rated at 12000 BTUH and the room is cold putting in something less is not going to work without some other piping or control changes such as splitting zones and or doing some pumping.  . A cast iron radiator is a good thing for holding the heat for long periods.  That's why they used them on gravityu systems.  I'm not well versed in gravity systems.  A lot more smarter guys on the forum work with this daily.    Mike

Plaster or drywall

@ May 15, 2012 9:36 AM in In ceiling electric radiant heat and lights

Dan,
When I worked with my Dad who did plastering we did some radiant ceilings. There were quite a few done in the '70s in our area (nothern Ohio) during the energy crises when no new gas, LP or oil systems were being installed.  The wires were stapled to the plasterboard and then embedded in the first coat of plaster.  It was an art to not nick a wire with the trowel.  Not too much plastering done anymore on the residential side.  There were some pre-wired drywall panels also.   Depending on the heat loss, interior rooms, exterior walls, room size etc, dictated the wire pattern.  Some were closer maybe 3"-4" along outside walls, farther apart near the center.  Sometimes there was more than one loop in a large room, just like they do radiant in a floor.  There are all kinds of layouts.   Where they knew there were going to be cupboards, dining romm, kitchen or bedroom lights they gave some open space.  The IR camera may be your best route.  Unless they left some gaps or have wide spacing where you want your fixtures you may have to do a surface mount.  I don't know the issue of mounting something over a wire.  I know that at certain times we could see some streaking, but I think that was more a function of the paint or final finish.  Good luck.   Mike

Air Currents

@ March 29, 2012 8:54 AM in Insulation question

As other have said in theory an air space provides some R value. The bigger the space creats the opportunity for convective air currents.  The underside of the roof will generally be colder than the floor so you will get air movement.  The same thing can happen in a wall cavity, and in some windows that have a large air gap between panes.  

Contact JAG

@ March 26, 2012 9:48 AM in Concerned Customer

Contact the JAG at your post if posible for advice.  Generally they can give you advice or a course of action.  They probably cannot act in your behalf since it most likely falls into the Civil action side of the arena.  I spent over 36 years in the Army, and I've seen this. You are trying to take care of your family from thousands of miles away.  The other posters are right on.  Contact the State's Attorney, local Better Buisness Bureau, local law enforcement is fraud involved, local news.  Public support for anything related to war is waning, except for those of us who have had a stake in it.  Keep the faith, be safe and don't let this go.  

Is this the primary system

@ February 8, 2012 9:01 AM in Hydronic floor heat

Is the outdoor boiler the primary heat source or in addition to a existing system.  Is it an open system with all the proper components or are yopu using a HX to separate systems.  If everything is open there are all kind of options as others have stated.  Take into consideraion the floor coverings if going floor radient.  Baths are usually different than bedrooma and may require different temps.  Baths lend themselves well to panel/towel warmers if wall space is available.  So many ways to do it.  I wish I was smarter a few years ago.   Mike

Any other products

@ January 25, 2012 4:30 PM in Gypcrete, Warmboard, Quik Trak... Which should I choose

Is there a product that combines the furring strip concept and thin AL plate, like warmboard R in just long strips for 1/2" tubing?  I entertained the idea Warmboard R in my 12x14 utility room ceiling.  Currently it is open ceiling/floor joists.  Insulating not a problem.  With the can lights to work around I thought there might be too much waste to work the grooves where I wanted them.  I'll go back to my original plan of furring strips, thin plates and 1/2" drywall.  Is there any issue of just leaving the end loops free of any support for movement.  They'll just lay on the top of the drywall.  Part of the area above the utility room is a bathroom, 7'x8'.  If I didn't put insulation above the ceiling in this area, is there a way to figure out how much heat will go up?  I can always use a little more heat in the bathroom.  The floor is 3/4" plywood, 1/4" underlament and then linoluem.  I already entertained the idea of plates under the floor, but nails on 6"x6" and did'nt feel like doing the grinder thing since I'll have the ceiling radient.  I shouldn't have any issue getting enough heat in the rest of the ceiling for the utility room, but I have to relook my heat loss calcs.  Currently the wals and unheated above area is insulated but  unfinished.  There is 60' of soft copper in the gravel fill under the 4" concete slab.  2" extruded foam under and around perimeter.  I run 112-115 degee water through it now, and it works pretty well.  It has it's own pump but it is wired in with another small copper BB zone so I can reduce short cycling.  I'm getting closer to finishing this room so I'm just looking at ideas.  I know the copper under the floor may have a short life so all my piping is installed to bypass it if necessary.  Any ideas welcomed.    Thanks  Mike

Total weight

@ January 25, 2012 9:26 AM in Gypcrete, Warmboard, Quik Trak... Which should I choose

Gordan,
What I was looking at was total weight of the system.  The warmboard R which is OSB, on the whole ceiling, plus say 1/2" drywall, vs using thinner drywall.  Maybe not that much difference in the big picture.  The extra weight may be an issue in an older house.  In going the furring strip route, ther are only 3/4" strips, with thin plates and then 1/2" drywall.  Proper insulation above would be installed in either method.  We used to do the 1/4", sometimes 3/8" drywall over existing wall or ceiling surfaces to get a more uniform surface.  The surfaces had to be reasonably sound, but maybe hairline cracks or old wood lath and plaster.  Construction adhesive or a drywall mastic and screws made a good install.  In this case since the warmboard is all OSB, a closer fastening pattern is needed.  Don't know what that would be, 6"x6", 8"x8".  Mabe some adhesive.  Maybe it's all more hassel than the benefits.   Mike

Drywall thickness

@ January 25, 2012 8:50 AM in Gypcrete, Warmboard, Quik Trak... Which should I choose

Has anyone used Warmboard R in a ceiling application with less than 1/2" drywall.  Looking at the weight issue in an older house or retrofit application.  Since the ceiling is totally backed up with the warmboard would 1/4" or 3/8" drywall work?  Structurally it would work but is there any issue with the thermal part of thinner drywall.  I've done remodel work plastering and drywalling using 1/4" over existing surfaces with no issue.  Not real fun hanging 1/4" on a ceiling.   I've stripped out ceilings with 3/4" furring strips or plywodd then 1/2", but in that case needed the backer support.  Thereare some light weight drywall boards out there.  Just seeing what others thought.  I may try it in my own house.  Thanks  Mike

Boiler and indirect

@ January 11, 2012 8:58 AM in Tankless gas heaters/gas boiler?

I'm not recommending any particular brand of equipment but I've been there.  Originally had an 210K LP boiler and electric WH when I bought the place.  In the 80s I installed an Aqua Star tankless because of the percieved standby loss issue.  Had to up grade the venting.  I used it for almost 20 years with very little issue. i got my moneys worth.   Not the high flow of some of the newer models but we learned to use one water drawing appliance at a time.  Now I have a modcon 27K-80K and and an indirect.  I have to say my LP use for the DHW is no more than with the tankless.  I track the LP use in the summer to get a baseline for DHW.  I have one LP burning appliance now, one vent, never a problem with running out of hot water, there are only two of us.  We still tend to use DHW like we had a tankless, but I don't worry about the on off faucet use when washing dishes ec.  I suppose a possible down side is that if something goes wrong with the modcon, especially in the winter I don't have heat or hot water.  Personally I prefer the indirect in my situation, but I also like tankless DHW in some applications..  As Bob indicated a lot of good combi products out there.  Mike 

Hole and Plug

@ January 9, 2012 10:36 AM in vent sample port

If you are needing a hole for a combustion analyzer probe, I just drill and tap threads in the proper location for sampling and then just use a SS bolt or plug.  This may be more of an issue after the fact since you now have the chance of getting debris in the closed system.  Mike

How old is the dishwasher

@ January 4, 2012 5:01 PM in I need a booster heater for my dishwasher

Don't most dishwashers have a boost capability built in to sanitize the dishes?  That feature may not help you if you still have to run and wat a lot of hot water to just do the regular cleaning.  It may be easier and more cost effective to replace the entire unit.   What about an on demand recirculating system to so you at least don't waste water.  Is it possible or are the pipes insulated on the long runs.  Just some thoughts.  I am one of the dishwashers in my house.   Mike

Cost per BTU

@ January 4, 2012 12:12 PM in Electric versus propane and oil.

Never hurts to look at all options. If we look at strictly cost, not where does electric come from, future costs of fossil fuel generation, carbon footprint, electric service upgrade, initial costs of new boiler and venting versus no venting etc etc.  What is the true costs of LP after all taxes, delivery charges, hazmat fees?  Is it still $2.25?  What about a KWH of electric, is it still $0.0875?  LP at 91800 BTUs a gal is before efficiency is factored in.  Assume electric at 100%.  If those costs are the final prices then it a wash at a 95% efficient LP boiler.  You have to determine the pros and cons on all the other factors.    Mike 

Vent damper

@ December 29, 2011 8:39 AM in vent damper motor

Paul   It's a brick chimney in good shape but it is not lined.  No separate LWCO or manual reset switch.  My son bought this house last year and this is his second winter in it.  The boiler was installed in 1989.  We cleaned the boiler and set it with a combustion analylzer  and rewired all the zone valve so they would work as designed.  We want to do some other work on it after the heating season, but right now we are leaving well enaough alone.  It has an old style expansion tank which we want to repalce with a diaphragm type, need feed water valve and air eliminator.  All in all it works pretty well.  The house is mostly copper finned BB, but there are a few old cast iron radiators and BB on a zone with monoflo tees.  Those upgrades will be another thread.
Jim,  Flair is still in business and I can get parts but they are selling existing stock and not making any more of these parts.  Do I want to buy a part that is discontinued or go with another current brand.  Although 22 years on the original isn't too shabby.  Is there something better to install,  barametric damper?  Is it advisable to put on a a blocked flue safety switch, etc.  I don't think a new boiler is in his future right now but he is smart enough to look long term.   Thanks for all the guidance.  MIke

What is the energy savings

@ December 28, 2011 9:14 AM in vent damper motor

Thanks for the reply.  Nothing in the way.  The motor just doesn't have the torque to fully close the damper and when power is off to the motor when it is suppose to open it appears that the guts of the motor are probably worn and the damper spring won't force it fully open to engage the switch to start the ignition cycle. It was installed in 1989.    Currently it is open in the service position so the boiler can function.  The boiler is in a basement in my son's house.  It's not heated except for the heat from the boiler and related pipes.  I did contact the manufaturer for a replacement part or parts and yikes.  Not to discuss pricing, but the little 24V motor is over 1/3 the cost of a complete damper unit, the motor and circuit board is over 2/3 the cost of a complete unit. The bad part is that they are no longer making these so what parts are on the shelf is what they have.  I will probably look into a different brand that is currently supported.  If it would have failed before Christmas, it would have been his present.  My other question is what is the energy savings with a vent damper?  This boiler does not have any other safety swtches such as a blocked flue sensor on it.  There is about 4' of horizontal 6" pipe then into a brick chimmney up two stories through the center of an old farm house.  I look at it as money up the chimmney, but he looks at it as cash out of his pocket.  Thanks for any guidance.  Mike

vent damper motor

@ December 27, 2011 11:38 AM in vent damper motor

I have a Burnham series 2 boiler with a Flair 6" vent damper.  I think I've isolated the problem to the 24V motor.  Anyone know of a source for a replacement?  I'm still trying some local suppliers, internet etc,  but thought I would throw this out to the wall also.  Checked power to the motor, it's ok but when power is cut when running through a cycle it won't open. Spring on damper is ok.  Motor is real raspy.  I have it in service mode with damper open so the boiler can operate. Thanks for any help or anything else I should look at.   Mike

It's all relevant and it depends

@ November 21, 2011 11:38 AM in Electric Boiler

For most people it's more than just the dollars, or is it.  As JDB points out there are the environment issues of different fuel types.  In northwet Ohio my electric comes from either a coal fired, or nuclear plant.  After all taxes, fees etc about $0.11 a KWH. It's actually been reasonably stable the last few years.  Propane for me is $2.399 a gal but add in tax, fuel sur-charge, hazmat etc it is about $2.65 a gal if I wait until my 500 gal tank is about at 20% to get a decent fill to spread out the hazmat and fuel sur-charge fees.  The propane companies all play the new customer game with low initila fill and lower first year lock in prices and people change on a yearly basis.  Based on propane at 92000 BTUs a gal and electric at 3412 BTU KWH, a million BTUs on an 80% efficient boiler like my son has is $35.17 for electric at .$12 KWH and $36.00 for propane.  If the BTU content of propane is lower or boiler efficeincy is higher it changes. I have a modcon so for me I'm better off with propane.  My son on the other hand could plug in a resistance type heater and probably break even.  Heat the area you are in and use the boiler for baseline heat.  Of course there is also the comfort aspect to factor in.  Depending on the application an electric boiler may make sense.  The cost of fuel is always a crap shoot.

Just curious

@ November 16, 2011 8:46 AM in System suggestions for radiant floor in pole building

Did Nibco recommend non barrier PEX at the time?  Since you have non barrier PEX you should separate the boiler side from the loop side with a heat exchanger. You'll need all non ferrous components on the loop side, pumps, valves ec.  Is it planned for all the loops to be on ot one time and at one temp?  Are all the loop lengths fairly close in lemgth?  If so it fan really simplify your controls and components.  Go with a boiler. The most efficient you can afford in the size you need.  If you are thinking of only heating sections, look at a modulaing boiler which will be able to modulate down to only a few loops if needed.   I'm no expert on this but have three friends in Northwest Ohio who have installed radient in slabs.  I was just an interested bystander.  Two are farmers with large pole barn shops.  One is going to use a wood or corn pellet stove boiler, the other is using an outdoor wood boiler which is also heating his house and the third built a house and shop combined pole type structure on a slab and is using a wood gasification boiler.  He also has some large storage tanks.  They are all in various stages of getting them set up. 

Heat Loss

@ October 13, 2011 3:08 PM in Baseboard radiator

For a start you need to do an accurate heat loss to determine how many BTUs are needed at a given indoor temp versus the outdoor temp.  You know what you are going to use the basement for, that will dictate your indoor temp and potential comfort level.  The outdoor temp is usually the design temp, usually the lowest temp you see during the winter n your area, but keep in mind that that only occurs a small percent of the time.  A basement also may not show as quick a change in temp as the above ground structure.  What temps are you currently running in the rest of the system?  Is it a one temp 180-200 degree standard baseboard system, or are there different temp zones?  Multiple circ pumps or zone valves and tstats?   It may be as simple as determining how much heat you need, looking at the output charts in BTUs per foot for baseboard at the temp you are using, and installing the needed footage of baseboard and a tstat.  There is standard baseboard and some good high output units if space is limited.  If you use PEX keep in mind  it has limitations on water temps.  What is your current boiler?  There are also a lot of control and mixing strategies to possibly maximize the efficiency of your existing system and increase your comfort.    Mike

Install manual

@ October 7, 2011 10:50 AM in MUNCHKIN HEAT PLUMBING

The install manual should cover what you need, expansion tnak, air separtator etc..  You will need to pipe using primary/secondary.  The boiler will need it's own pump for the boler loop. The manual will tell you the head loss and suggested pump.  I have the 80M model and I have a Taco 007 on the boiler loop.  I also have an indiect DHW along with 4 heating zones each with a Grundfos pump.  There are a lot of piping and control options.  If all your zones need the same or close to the same water temp you could set the boiler temp and let 'er go and not need a mixingvalve.  Use individual zone valves with one pump sized properly or an ECM type pump.  If you have widely varying watter temps you will probably need some type of mixing strategy.  Just make sure the PEX has an O2 barrier.  here are a lot more knowledgeable gys out there than me.   Mike



 

Switching relay

@ September 22, 2011 1:25 PM in wiring

Look at the Taco line of switching relays ie. SR503.  They can handle the boiler pump, individual zone pumps and DHW pump if needed.  Simple easy to wire and expandable.  I use one for a four zone heating application with DHW.  Grundfos also carries a line.