Heating Help

It might be the apartment owners

@ January 21, 2010 10:30 PM in 1 pipe steam system to radiant

are facing a logistic impossibility. If you can't move the steam pipes, and they want nothing in front of the windows, (and you can not install a local heat source) then you/they have to find the heat from another source. It is not likely other pipes in the unit are sized big enough to provide 35k btu (but maybe they are). Maybe they would be willing to accept a bench in front of one (or more) of the bay windows? The heat has to come from someplace. As you probably know, in a single pipe system the heat available is basically determined by the pipe size - if you are looking to remove three radiators, you have to look for a pipe left over that has the required capacity. Good luck.

Again, I'm not a pro . . . There maybe options out there that I do not know about. Maybe somebody here does.

Pesky air

@ January 21, 2010 9:22 PM in 1 pipe steam system to radiant

I guess I'd try to vent it out the heat exchanger. But it could be a plate exchanger is just not the right type to use. Probably better to use something designed for the job. Sounds like they exist, but are hard to place - I assume this is because they have to be big to handle steam, condensate, and the required heat transfer. I knew there would be something obvious I was missing - thanks for pointing it out :)

The apartment owners might just have to realize that heat does not come out of nowhere. If they don't like radiators (with the boiler in the basement), or large heat exchangers, maybe they have to figure out how to put in a local heat source - ha. In 4000 ft^^2 there must be space somewhere. . .

I'm no expert,

@ January 21, 2010 9:05 PM in 1 pipe steam system to radiant

and have no experience, so feel free dis my suggestion.

How about if you set up the heat exchanger as a pseudo two pipe system.
Take the steam from the single pipe. Feed it to the top of the exchanger,
Drain the exchanger through a trap, and then put the condensate back into the single pipe. It seems like this could work, but I might be missing something obvious. . .

How about a pdf version

@ January 19, 2010 8:03 PM in A new book!

to cut down on printing costs - and its associated energy usage?

Maybe a freebee to help green the planet for your grandkids.

btw, I've heard a rumor - green is no longer a color ! The word now means something different.

Anyway, congrats, and thanks for letting us know.

But,

@ January 19, 2010 7:13 PM in "Y" Strainers for Main Vents & Insulation Questions

the air speed out the vent is not what determines how much crud may be picked up.

A bigger vent will vent more air (it might be leaving the vent more slowly, because of the bigger hole, but it is venting more air.) A bigger vent means faster steam velocity in the mains. A faster speed in the main means more stuff might get picked up and moved toward the vent. Plus there is always the possibility that just working on the pipes can break more crud loose.

Maybe this is why people are having problems with newly installed Gorton #2 vents.
Maybe ???

I think a strainer is a good idea. Likely it will not have to be cleaned often. Perhaps once soon after the new vent install, to catch anything that might be knocked loose, then less frequently afterward. I don't know the relative cost of vents v.s. strainer, but in the end it might be worth it to have to clean something that is designed to be cleaned.

But I'm not a pro, and have no first hand experience, so could be wrong . . .

You could

@ January 17, 2010 2:02 PM in Battery backup

use a deep cycle battery and an inverter. But I can't recommend that because it probably violates code, and takes human intervention.

so the fish was worth

@ January 17, 2010 1:47 PM in off topic any fishing out there

its weight in gold - more or less.

I do enjoy driving and racing on ice. Last winter none of the lakes froze enough for that. I can see where a nice ice hut would be a good escape - and fun. And I'm sure you have figured out how to monitor all you holes from the comfort of you hut. Different strokes . ..

You are looking for a foolproof system

@ January 17, 2010 1:28 PM in adding a high water cut-off?

but no such thing exists. You have me thinking now, what would I do if I was going to leave my house for several months during the winter. I'd probably turn everything off (at least the water) and hope for the best. I'd also google to see what others do.

Without further guidance, I'd turn the water off for the whole house - and drain whatever I could. I'd slightly overfill my boiler, set the thermostat to 55. I might even turn it off and drain it! A visiting neighbor is probably the most reliable backup (do alarm systems work if a tree takes down your power/telephone/cable lines?)

I don't think there is a right answer to your question, but I don't think adding anything will help. Just introduces one more point of failure IMO.

Edit: I'd also call my insurance company to see what they recommended or required.

I have no idea how hard a person can blow

@ January 17, 2010 12:58 PM in Leaking Gorton #2

But you've got a low pressure gauge so you could find out.

The vent should close when it gets hot, and it should no leak at pressures less than 2 lb/in**2

If you (or your boiler) can blow harder than that perhaps it can  (and should) leak.

Does the vent leak during normal operation, or only when you force your boiler to pressure cycle?

My guess right now - either you have something stopping the valve from closing, or, they are getting sloppy with build quality. I don't know what the valve parts of made of. Maybe they are soft and will seal better with use (at least until they get too worn)

I which I could be of more help. I don't have a #2. And even if I did I don't know if I'd open and probably destroy it to help a stranger - though I have done stranger things to help strangers.

I'd be tempted to put that valve in big pot of water - oriented upright as it would be installed - and boil it in hopes that the needle and seat would form together and seal. Maybe it just needs to be broken in? Or just buy several #1's - or a different brand.

crud can be many things

@ January 17, 2010 12:24 PM in Leaking Gorton #2

dirt - rust - excess pipe dope or teflon tape - Drilling or threading residue. It doesn't take much to stop a needle valve from closing all the way.

I don't know about running it open - you may get more steam than you want. Maybe make sure the vent valve is clear, clean, and working - then reinstall it and see what happens on the first cycle (or maybe temporarily install it with a piece of cloth to cover the entrance)

I'm no pro, but the Gorton vents seem to be pretty simple. A float sitting on top of a bemetal, with a needle and seat valve at the top. They should close when the bimetal strip gets hot, or there is water in the chamber. Too bad they were not designed to be opened up (and serviced). My guess is - poor construction or quality control - either the bimetal strip is not working right, or the valve is not closing right (or like I said it could be crud getting stuck in the valve)

If I was looking for a business opportunity I see two obvious options - a low pressure pressuretrol that works as described, and a high capacity vent that works reliably (and can be serviced). For the price these things sell for I'm surprised nobody has done this - except perhaps that steam is viewed as a "dead" technology since it is not really conducive to condensing exhaust boilers.

I wish spring was nearly here

@ January 17, 2010 11:44 AM in off topic any fishing out there

I'm tired of the cold. Maybe I'm getting old - or depressed. If I was hungry - or looking for a trophy - I'd make a hole in ice to fish. But for fun, I don't think so, though I understand that some could find it fun - after all seeing that rod tip jiggle is fun . . . :)

Let me make sure I understand

@ January 17, 2010 11:30 AM in one pipe steam heat problems

The same pipe that feeds the first floor radiator also feeds the second floor radiator.

The second floor radiator gets heat. The first floor radiator does not get heat?

So somehow, the steam completely misses the first floor radiator on its way up to the second floor?

There must be some heat in the room since if nothing else the pipe gives off heat.
Can you feel any heat at all in the first floor radiator? How close does the heat get?
I assume its valve is all the way open?

Is this a new problem that suddenly occurred? Anything you can remember that might have happened at about the same time?

weird - I'm not a pro, but,

@ January 17, 2010 10:48 AM in Leaking Gorton #2

in my limited experience this is not normal

4 bad vents does sound weird. They should be able to handle 2psi. Maybe there is grunge in the boiler, or pipe, that is getting blown up and preventing the valve from closing? Or maybe they have a bad batch. Do you live at high altitude (maybe the boiling temperature is not high enough to fully shut the valve)?

I'd take that one back off. Make sure the valve seals properly (by trying to blow through it while upside down - the valve not you ;) Shake it around a bit. See if it still seals well. Maybe rinse it out well to make sure no crap is stuck inside preventing it from closing. Maybe try boiling it (but I don't know how you would have it hot enough to activate, but still be cool enough to blow through).

Have all 4 released about the same amount of steam.

OK, I'll play. . .

@ January 17, 2010 10:35 AM in New Steam Boiler - Copper Piping

Here is the way I see it.

The copper pipe is connected to the boiler by a threaded fitting (i.e. swing joint).
It is unlikely the expansion of the piping will rip apart the furnace (though I suppose it is possible). So, the furnace maker is probably safe.

The piping may, or may not, be a problem in several years. The joints could start leaking, or the pipe could bend back and forth enough (due to thermal expansion and contraction) to become work hardened and start cracking. Or they could be just fine - only time will tell. How much warrantee does the plumber provide?

It sounds like your plumber has agreed to come back and add a second riser. Do you know yet how this will be connected? Hopefully using a "swing" joint as the instructions require. It might well be that everything will be just fine.

I'm glad I'm not in your position, but at least you'll know better for next time, and this thread might help somebody else.

he probably needs a back flow preventing vent

@ January 16, 2010 4:56 PM in Freezing Tankless Water Heater

something like

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/heatingproducts/waterheating/aquastar1/aquastar_ventingkit.asp

same problem

@ January 13, 2010 2:37 PM in Site Question

I can view threads if I do not log on.

Interesting

@ January 11, 2010 5:40 PM in quantifying $$$ savings...

the way I read this when you put the vents back on your furnace ran longer - using more fuel!  But I assume your house was a more uniform temperature (since steam got to that top radiator faster)

Do what Jamie suggests

@ January 11, 2010 5:35 AM in Outdoor temps and tstat adjustments

my guess is that your thermostat is not anticipating enough heat. Or since it is programmable, is set for too many cycles per hour (CPH). Make sure your set for 1cph (or sometimes 2). Unless it was set for steam when you installed it, it is probably still set for the default (which is usually hot air.)

Maybe you have a wiring problem.

@ January 11, 2010 5:25 AM in Steam System Not Shutting Down Properly

I had this problem with my doorbell. Seems the cloth insulation had failed, and sometimes the bell would go off by itself.

Maybe your thermostat wiring has an intermittent short in it someplace.

I see now

@ January 9, 2010 4:12 PM in main venting doesn't matter?!?

a 2yr old and a 10wk old. Probably not retired - but probably pretty tired ;)

I haven't looked at your spread sheet

@ January 9, 2010 2:11 PM in main venting doesn't matter?!?

does it neglect the role of rad vents in helping to vent the main? When the boiler first fires all vents in your system and helping vent the mains.

You are heading down a slippery slope - next you'll want pressure transducers on all your radiators ;)

Did you do manual timing before and after adding main vents?

If you truly determine that main vents make no difference, you are going to have a lot of posts to edit!

I'm guessing you are a retired engineer, and this is you new hobby. Am I close?

Anyway, again, fun stuff and thanks for sharing :)

Boy, you guys take this seriously :)

@ January 9, 2010 1:02 PM in quantifying $$$ savings...

What fun. Thanks for sharing your results.

Since you know know that indoor temperature doesn't vary very much, perhaps you could move your indoor sensor to the boiler riser. This would let you determine how long it took to make steam, then how long it took to get to your radiator inlet.