Heating Help

no wrong way....

@ December 13, 2011 12:30 AM in Vents woke up on the wrong side

as long as it's a HUMP rather than a SAG, there's no wrong way to pitch. the water will find its way back either through header/equalizer or by dry/wet return. don't go trying to fix what ain't broke.

as I mentioned way above before I read down this far. reduce your nightly setback .. since you say you've insulated, then running constant temp should not be an issue. did you ever time how long it takes to recover temp in the morning vs. how often the boiler runs at night to maintain temp .. I have :-) The recovery loses just about every time.

Keeping pressure low will do several things not just save fuel during fire-off times ..
1) reduces large system water level fluctuations/differentials
2) quiets hissing (either outbound air or vacuum sucking) vents.
3) saves fuel
4) less stress on the vents (some are only rated to 3psi. (Hoffman 1A's?))
5) saves inlet valve packing/hissing
6) speeds steam delivery (not really since all steam movement starts at 0.001 pressure)

All that being said, I run/ran at about 9oz with a 2oz diff... and with
a) constant temp 24/7 and
b) a properly sized boiler
c) with balanced system and
d) a well placed t-stat,
.....the t-stat will almost always (except for design day and its close neighbors) drop the call before I hit 9oz. Usually I hit pressure at about 35mins-45mins of fire.

When I ran testing with nightly setbacks .. I almost always hit/cycled on pressure during the last 3rd of the t-stat call.

These days, with my eTRVs I sometimes only make steam for 1,2,3 rads of 15 total at a time, especially at night/weekends when my steam is 2nd stage heating in most rooms.. so I thank my lucky stars for my Honeywell L408J1009 vaporstat. Since I fill em pretty quickly. But I also don't care since I then cycle comfortably on my v-stat. I also have a digital pressure transducer .. but it's their more for it's large LED readout and is NOT hooked into the system.

2 small comments ....

@ December 12, 2011 11:57 PM in Vents woke up on the wrong side

1) This is one of the reasons why I advocate NO or VERY SMALL SETBACKS .. this decreases the early morning cold equipment syndrome. The equipment stays pretty evenly tempered 24/7.

2) Increasing the pitch in a PARALLEL-FLOW situation may help, but in a counter-flow this may hurt -- especially when that big glug of water hits its first elbow. Increasing the pipe size in either would probably help. Installing a drip to a wet return is always going to be helpful, but not always practical

blow your vents ...

@ December 12, 2011 11:33 PM in Defective Gorton#1?

I also tend to give a new vent an up-blow and down-blow test, sometimes even at the counter. To see if it behaves properly. Especially blow before I take the time to pull the old one and install the new one. 

yep .. I gots da 15"

@ December 11, 2011 1:54 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

Not sure where 15" is coming from .. perhaps that's 28" - the header height .. but yes, I have about 36" from steam supply to boiler jacket top .. and I have close to 17" from steam supply to equalizer .. see pics with tape measure in the main album .. (red markings at 12" increments) ..

https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw

strange vent .. no markings

@ December 11, 2011 1:50 PM in strange vent .. no markings

Came across this strange looking vent .. no markings I could decipher .. not really too important .. but I thought I would throw it out your way ..

thanks!

@ December 7, 2011 12:32 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

such a note coming from such constructive critic means alot :-) I much appreciate your insight and insistence that I move down the path a bit farther. 

perhaps this will help ....

@ December 7, 2011 10:59 AM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

Riello with and without sound cover ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DNLsOjWsTk

not so bad...

@ December 7, 2011 10:25 AM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

I will give some thought into how best to capture the "sound" .. However, I think that the sound is going to be dependent on a few other factors besides the actual burner ..
1) Combustion chamber geometry & size
2) Barometric damper Placement
3) Combustion/flame tuning
it is certainly less loud than my Rigid vacuum :-) And much less loud than my old Fitzgibbons 405 that had a huge combustion chamber.

The burner itself is relatively quiet. It's the roar of the flame which is louder. That roar emanates most from the Barometric damper. Likewise, the tweaking of the flame has a great deal to do with the sound, think candle sound vs. propane torch. The cover for the burner is a significant benefit though.

In researching boiler for my Aunt, I conversed a bit with Steamhead. This is what I learned from our conversations ..
A Smith-8-4 boiler is quieter than a S/F Intrepid
A midco burner is quieter than a Carlinn EZGas
Smith is only approved with a Carlin
Intrepid is approved for either Midco or Carlin.
We didn't discuss Riello in that the Reillo is only oil. But he commented that the Gas Burners are comparable soundwise, to an oil powerburner.

If you get a Carlin, apparently make sure you get the P/N that includes the cover since there is also a P/N without a cover and adding the "cover kit" is a significant expense compared to getting the unit with cover included. The part number that I have noted for the Intrepid TR-30 is ..
TR-30 EZ-Gas Part Numbers:
WITH COVER: pn# 98-59-212BFR3
WITHOUT COVER: pn# 98-59-210BFR1
If you purchase the cover as a separate part the cover kit is SEVERAL HUNDRED $$ MORE. If you purchase the burner WITH COVER, it's only marginally more over the burner without.
The burners above are UNIVERSAL and the orifice needs to be drilled.

updated pic

@ December 7, 2011 12:28 AM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

Below is an updated picture...

1) Added the 2 sediment traps on both the DHW heater and the boiler.

2) Changed the GBV to be an AY McDonald 10687G (datasheet: http://www.aymcdonald.com/en-US/Component.Display.html?RefId=f9d279bb-5dcc-470e-aea1-60b6d20f2673 "manufactured to guildines set forth in B16.33" Made in USA)

Apparently this C.I. vs Mal. debate is over 5yrs old ..
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/104003/Cast-iron-fittings-vs-Malleable-fittings
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/88791/Cast-Iron-v-s-Black-Malleable-on-steam-systems
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138563/Cast-Iron-Fittings
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/124620/steam-pipe-fittings

In the links above, I noticed that several people refer to use of Mal. fittings as a violation of NYC Code, however, no one provides a code reference to base this violation on. I have just spent some time, again, combing through the NYC Building, Construction, Mechanical, Fuel Gas and Plumbing Code (http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/ci-nyc/YC-P-2008-000006.htm) and, I have concluded that if C.I. is required and Mal is prohibited,  it must be located in a document that I do not have ready access to: ASME BPVC Section IV.

NYC Mecanical Code Chapter 10, Section 1004.1
(http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newyorkcity/Mechanical/PDFs/Chapter%2010_Boilers%20Water%20Heaters%20and%20Pressure%20Vessels.pdf)
Set's forth the standards which dictate the design and construction of
boilers in NYC .. they include: ASME CSD-1 and as applicable: ASME BPVC
Sections I, II, IV, V, VI, VIII, and IX; 12 NYCRR Parts 4 and 14; NFPA
8501, 8501 and 8504.

In going back to some source material .. I think the answer of C.I. vs Mal is best illustrated in the following table (excerpted from "Steam Power Plant Engineering" - Gebhardt - 1915 pg. 691)

Additionally, on page 678 he has this to say about materials for fittings:

LIkewise, in "Steam Boilers" by Peabody and Miller - 1897 he shares these thoughts on C.I. and Malleable ..




Additionally, before we had NPT/IPS .. we had meetings on the topic of pipe threads and standards .. way back in Dec of 1886 the ASME had their 7th Annual meeting, one of the topics being, the standardization of Standard Pipe and Pipe Threads ... that's all interesting enough, however, it is notable that there was an entire Association of Cast Iron Fittings. Members of that Association included: R.T. Crane, Pres. of Crane Bros. Manufacturing, Chicago and  E.G. Brunham, VP The Eaton, Cole and Burnham Co., Bridgeport CT. It would seem that the Cast Iron folks had a strong lobbying force and that these fittings represented strong business interests. Perhaps, it may turn out that Cast Iron was cheapest to make in this Ayn Rand-ian,  steel is the old iPod, turn of the century industrialization period. But it was also heavy and brittle. Maybe someone in ASME (the same guys that make the standards for everyone) decided that the Cast Iron Fitting Association lobby, needed to get some steady orders and either due to political or monetary motivation, decided that Low Pressure Steam Boilers shall forever be made with C.I. fittings .. that and they hadn't invented the Sawzall / 4" Grinder yet.

NYC code ...

@ December 5, 2011 6:02 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

NYC Fuel Gas Code PDF Located here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/fuel_code.pdf

1) regarding the gas cock:
screenshot of NYC code here: http://screencast.com/t/P281t6Do
must comply with ASME B16.33 and/or ANSI Z 21.15
close up pictures of the cock here: https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw#5682770789119147218
and here: https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw#5682770534238586610
This cock clearly is stamped as complying with both ASME B16.33 and ANSI Z 21.15

2) sediment traps ..
Yes, code requires them.
Screenshot of code here: http://screencast.com/t/ClUPj6YK
On tomorrow's list.

3) Gas fittings (just general info, I know you didn't point this out...)
Cast Iron Pipe is explicitly Prohibited
Fittings for steel/wrought iton pipe shall be steel or malleable .. Cast Iron fittings are only allowed for flanges .. screenshot here: http://screencast.com/t/rbTRO3bAi35O

4) Header fittings
After reading the NYC plumbing code and finding nothing.
I looked into NYC Building Code 1968 with 2008 amendments (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/1968BuildingCode_Vol1.zip and http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/1968BuildingCode_Vol2.zip) and found nothing regarding the material of the boiler header .. unless it is somewhere listed in
ANSI/ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code 1986.
Section I Power Boilers
*Section IV Heating Boilers.

However, I then went out to the JP Ward site and looked up the specs for both their 150 Class Malleable and their 125 Class Cast Iron fittings .. (http://wardfittings.com/Assets/PDFs/0902CatalogColorOld.pdf)
       Screenshot for the 150Class fittings here: http://screencast.com/t/kvbMMLSTlgZ They are rated for 225PSIG @ 250dF
     screenshot for the 125 Class C.I. fittings .. http://screencast.com/t/xmY48ekF
They are rated for ONLY 150PSIG at 250dF.

So due to lack of exact NYC code reference likely because this is considered HVAC piping, and the fact that the malleable are better quality higher rated equipment, I have no problem having the malleable fittings installed over the cast .. the only difference being that the next mechanic will have a harder, though not impossible time, cracking the malleable fitting vs. the C.I.

the gas is being...

@ December 5, 2011 1:45 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

attended to tomorrow. I meant to do it today, but I got caught up on other monday morning errands. i'm not sure that the gas cock is chinese, i'll double check on that.

i'm not sure which fittings you are referring to as malleable and troublesome. the header fittings are cast (steam) as far as I ordered them.

thanks.

we are on same page ...

@ December 5, 2011 9:03 AM in Water Hammer After New Furnace Installed

you responded to my pre-editted post. i editted it again prior to your response. basically when installing a new boiler .. make sure that all pipes that you expect to be WET remain wet after any possible waterline changes.

too high?

@ December 5, 2011 8:51 AM in Water Hammer After New Furnace Installed

Sorry, I typed something earlier .. but now I know that you meant that you need all your wet returns to always be wet .. and that if a wet return is dry, this will cause problems.

But with regards to the A Dimension, you can never have that be too high. But you can have wet returns which are too high (not beneath the waterline).

just E

@ December 4, 2011 10:20 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

just electric. My gas is with NationalGrid and we only cook and dry with gas.

FYI, I'm so excited about my cheap electric, I'm now heating non-peak electrical with my LG Mini-Split heat pumps (down to about 0degC where the COP drops off as non-beneficial compared to oil)

But so far from 10/22-12/03 I've burned 86gals @ $3.49/gal including DHW from the tankless. According to degreedays.net .. there's been locally 606.5 HDD (65dF) for that period .. so 84/606.5 = 0.1385gals/HDD ($0.48/HDD)..

Last year I was tracking 0.313gal/HDD .. so I've cut better than 50%!

AND I just got my recent coned bill .. wait for it .. 10/21 - 11/27 =
         278kWhr Peak
         880kWhr Off-Peak
          (   Off peak supply = 5.183cents/kWh and
              On-Peak Supply = 12.2914cents/kWhr ...
             Delivery Off = 3.3977cents/kWh and
             On=12.6871cents/kWh)  ..
   + misc taxes etc  ... == $206 total.
And as I just mentioned I run a (recently reconciled) normal level billing of $183 .. so $206 isn't bad above my normal $ usage.

Perhaps most important of all .. the "Wife is Cold" Factor .. that's WsubC .. has dropped to about 0.

Electrical usage project

@ December 4, 2011 9:30 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

I fared pretty well. Coned sent me a reconciliation check for $189 and reduced my level billing amount from $263/month to $183/month in October. So I had a free month (well prepaid) month and I'm now saving close to 30%/month.

earlier in the season ...

@ December 4, 2011 5:59 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

I *was* hiding on an R&D project for whole house electronic TRVs.

Each rad now has an e-TRVent which senses room ambient and will either close the rad OR OPEN THE RAD AND CALL FOR HEAT. All wireless and centrally controlled at my laptop. Each room is fully programmable 24/7. One-pipe residential systems only right now. After boiler on, they all open for a configurable time for vacuum break.

I can also configure how many "cold" rooms are necessary prior to a call for heat. As well as how many rooms can still be cold when I ask the boiler to shut down. Currently I'm configured at 2 rooms must be cold to call for heat and 0 rooms can be cold to shutdown the call.

All pressure and LWCO controls are entact, these simply replace my central thermostat which is still in-line however, set down below my lowest room setpoint as a safety.

If anyone would like more info on the units/system or a look at the data, please reach me directly.

traps and venting

@ December 4, 2011 5:46 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

The DHW trap .. I cannot comment on .. that was done by a "professional" crew local to the area within the last year.

The boiler dirt leg/trap .. I'm glad someone noticed that .. it was only noticed by me late in the install day as an oversight that I didn't catch as I was on a run for a few fittings, I intend on correcting it tomorrow. As well as wiring it up and cementing the flue pipe.

I would like to see an additional piece or two Gorton #1 on the 75ft 2" Main/Return. Since there are 1.725cf of air to vent in that pipe and the Gorton #1 vents at a rate of ~0.33cfm at 1oz of pressure. According to the work of Gill and Pajek.

Aunt's New Boiler ...

@ December 4, 2011 4:25 PM in Aunt's New Boiler ...

Here's some before and after pics (although I'm back there tomorrow for some loose ends) .. of a boiler install that I worked on for my Aunt.

A BIG THANKS to Steamhead for his input in directing me towards the Peerless 63. The original reco to my aunt was a Slant Fin Intrepid with a Carlin burner, but after my aunt experienced my Reillo oil gun, she opted of a much quieter (very important to her) atmospheric.

A BIG THANKS to Chris and his crew for their expert install.

A BIG THANKS to Karen at simplyplumbing for bearing with me during the decision process and being there when I needed her.

It's a Peerless Packaged 63-03 (packaged with a 404A Pressuretrol, CG-450-1560 Probe Type LWCO, Spark Ignition) .. www.simplyplumbing.com

Extra Additions by me include:
Vaporstat + VXT-24 Auto-feed (simplyplumbing.com),
0-20oz LowPressure gauge + snubber (www.gaugestore.com),
3" Header. (SOLCO Plumbing Supply House)
Proper skim, iso and cleanout valves/ports

I still need to get her a proper venting tree (seen in background is a Gorton #1, which is underventing her main)

https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw (ALL PICTURES)

on the topic of yucky ducts...

@ April 7, 2011 1:56 PM in Steam Radiator availability

Here's a fairly robust article by the epa indoor air quality folks .. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/airduct.html

It doesn't claim that dirty ducts are bad, but in the same breath, I don't like the fact that they even have to address the existence of "significant mold".

I understand that having an open-to-the-air 1-pipe steam system, I could have a moldy water pocket hidden away in a pipe somewhere, but it's steam cleaned after the first couple of heating cycles.

There are very few *relevant* google results for "cleaning moldy steam pipes" http://www.google.com/search?q=cleaning+moldy+steam+pipe compared to "cleaning moldy air ducts" http://www.google.com/search?q=cleaning+moldy+air+ducts

the other properties?

@ April 7, 2011 9:56 AM in Steam Radiator availability

Tim -- just curious as to how the other properties are heated since you say the vapor is most expensive. Also, how are the usages different? Are they rented to tenants? Do you ever find open windows, doors, etc? Are the thermostats locked down to prevent tampering? Are the thermostats properly located to avoid drafts/sunlight? Does one set of tenants go in an out of the house more than the others. Tenant's comfort and habits has alot to do with heating costs. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand if the fact that it's vapor is the expensive part or other factors that may be contributing.

My tenants last year preferred the house at 52degF, this year the tenants prefer 68degF. And is the gas for cooking, DHW, and heating broken out? My 52degF tenants took ALOT of showers and did ALOT of laundry. Being that the bill was all rolled together, they had pretty big gas bill considering their cold house.

return sizing

@ March 26, 2011 2:17 PM in new boiler water spittlng air vents

According to TLAOSH .. 1-1/4" returns will support 1200sqft EDR on a 1-pipe wet return. that's not to say perhaps that they are crudded up inside and their capacity is therefore reduced, but if you are not shutting down on Low Water, you are probably A-OK.

How much Dimension A is there now that you have repiped?
Has the waterline changed since the original non-banging condition?
Do you have any horizontal connections that were once wet but now are dry?

quick update....

@ March 25, 2011 2:47 PM in OT: Time Shifting My Electrical Usage

after 1 full billing cycle (meter was read today) .. here are 2 charts and some data to show what effect my time-shifting had.

please note that the $ figures in the data are based on the straight per/kwh costs for SUPPLY and DELIVERY .. they do not reflect the total bill that includes other taxes and basic service and such.