Heating Help

the

@ February 6, 2012 4:08 PM in New solar install with flaws!

i would consider putting a tank inline with the return from the collectors and pulling out thru a mixing valve, set to 180F.  a 10 gal electric water heater in an insulated box will help.  that will keep your pex from seeing over 180F.  
I would leave the expansion tank alone for now, and potentially add a HX to dump heat directly to the floor loops.  I think you might be a bit undersized for 120 tubes with the HX's in your tanks. 

is the floor concrete?  you can dump quite a few BTUS into the concrete before you heat it too much.  I assume because the lines are buried the tubes are on a ground rack, do you want to cover half or more of them in the summer?

karl

preheat

@ January 26, 2012 9:16 AM in solar / radiant heat interface?

I agree with Fortunat, put the CST's upstream of the boiler injection point.
how many SF of panel are heating this 600 gallon tank?  I'd just like to hear more about the system as it's built.  

I have something similar although a 200 G tank, but the system's low flow enough that I just run all the return water thru a diverting zone valve and control that with the auxillary delta T control on the Caleffi BX (BTW, I love that controller. even using the timed aux relay to control my homebuilt off-peak heating system)  I'm able to pull the tank down to about 75F every night in cold weather (think 20 degrees or so) in colder weather I only pull it down to about 90, because the return temps are in that range.

let us know how it works out.

cheers,
karl

reserve alkalinity test

@ January 26, 2012 9:05 AM in Checking Glycol

I use the PH Strips and a refractometer on a regular basis for most service calls, but on larger jobs than DHW, where the cost of replacing antifreeze is substantially more than a return visit, I have our local chemical company do a reserve alkalinity test.  it's essentially a titration that tells us how much buffering capacity is left in the antifreeze. 

I don't think they charge anything, or maybe $20.  but we buy all our antifreeze there, so that helps.

Karl

sand beds I've done

@ October 12, 2011 10:02 AM in solar sand box

I've done a half dozen sand beds, and they've all performed exceptionally well.
Half the battle is the building you put on top of the sand bed.

we have one (actually the first one we did) that is a 3000+ sf house (all above grade) with lots of windows and stuff, very normal looking house, that has been using 2 chords of wood per year in the sealed combustion fireplace insert.  that's in a 8000 Hdd area.

the other one is a 2800 SF barn/workshop that gets no lower than 50 F with no additional input.  but it's well insulated and has minimal windows.

I'm not going to argue the "seasonal heat storage" claim that others make as I don't think the numbers are there, but high mass systems are cheap and easy to put in, have minimal operating costs and few failure points.

the other saving grace is that there are minimal heat exchange inefficiencies in the system.   we typically use 1800-2100 ft of 3/4" pex in the floor, and get solar operating temps in the winter of 90 to the collector and 110-120 coming back from the collector.  those sorts of operating temps are not often seen in the flooded tank systems where the solar fluid is separated from the boiler/storage water by one or more heat exchangers. 

add in the $0 operating cost for most systems, grid independence, stable house temperatures and costs in the 3/4 of a more complicated system, and they can be a real winner.

Whether a particular system is a viable option is due to many more variables than can be presented in this forum, but I think high mass systems definitely have great potential for many many applications. 

My $.02

cross post

@ August 1, 2011 2:56 PM in A coil dehumidification

so it's acceptable protocol here to cross post?
I will do so. It just seems that I could remove a large amount of water from the air with 50 deg water given the amount of condensation we get off the water pipes.


thanks
Karl

pump and dump

@ August 1, 2011 8:05 AM in A coil dehumidification

I understand the contamination issues, and plan to feed it thru a double check valve like the radiant system, and dump it with an air gap into my watering tank (non potable rainwater anyway)
I would love a couple of minisplits. but the budget isn't there.  I can get this stuff for free.
K

A coil dehumidification

@ July 31, 2011 6:33 PM in A coil dehumidification

So in the last heat wave, My wife and I have been dreaming of dehumidification and possibly air conditioning. 
Our house is smallish, superinsulated, in the country and on a well.  We have radiant heating all around, so no central AC.

I have had thoughts about running an old furnace with an A coil on top with domestic water running thru the A coil at a low flow rate to cool and dehumidify the air stream.  I can get ducts up below the stairs, and send the air out below the top step.  The return would be below the bottom steps and under the kitchen cabinets.

I'd have to run the water down the drain (sump line to the field, or into the rainwater tank I use for irrigation/watering.  Fortunately, hot weather here usually means we're watering the garden and orchards, and rainwater has been lacking here this summer after an epically wet spring. 

can anyone give me some assistance with assessing the effectiveness of this option? 
we have no shortage of water, which will get reused anyway. 
the typical heat and humidity we have been seeing here is about 84F and 80%RH in the house, and 90F and 70%RH outside.  Ground water temp here is about 50F.

Even if I can drop the inside humidity 10% and 10 degrees it'll be much more tolerable.
I'm willing to use a couple of window units if necessary, but this seems like a fun option.
Thanks
Karl

hmmmmm

@ July 11, 2011 8:34 AM in Stinky water

Never heard of a powered anode for a water heater.  I did work on a powered corrosion protection system in waaaaaaayyyyyyyy northern Quebec once.  Powered by a 20KW Jacobs wind generator.  one of very few of those that charge batteries, not the grid.
I believe that system was running 24VDC at 200A 24/7. with a diesel backup generator.

It was at the port Facility at St. Augustine QC.  about 5 miles East into the estuary if you want to google earth it, you can see the shadow of the wind turbine on the snow. 

I'll look into the ittie bittie ones.  

thanks
Karl

stink stank stunk

@ July 7, 2011 2:22 PM in Stinky water

This place has all copper, but is in cranberry country (read: in the middle of the bogs) and has who knows what in the water, including a big honkin water treatment system. My plumber has never seen anything like it.

I wouldn't drink the water there.   the solar tank gets routinely to 160, and he's shocked the system a few times, but I wonder if the bacteria is in the well water, and just finds a quick place to flourish.    We put in an aluminum/zinc anode at the first complaint, but then they just removed it.

I'll be over that way this weekend and may stop in. 

cheers,
karl

Stinky water

@ July 7, 2011 10:32 AM in Stinky water

I am primarily a solar installer, and have finally run into a true stinky water situation. 
the system has a 75 gal bradford white internal coil tank, double wall HX.   The customer reported stinky water when the system was installed, and he pulled the anode rod and I never heard from him again.  a year later he called with a couple of questions, and I found out that he's had to shock the tank with chlorine tablets a half a dozen times in the year the system has been in.  Primarily after he's been gone for a few days.

the system consistently gets over 140F (today on a cloudy day it's at 130 from yesterday)

does anyone have any suggestions on either an anode rod chemistry that may help this, or any other suggestions, I will appreciate them.

Thanks
Karl

fun

@ June 13, 2011 9:48 AM in groundsource heat-dump solar trickle-charger?!?

Hey Roy,
it's been a while.
That sounds like a fun project.  If you're going to use solar fluid for the heat transfer I would probably use type K copper pipe with a spun closure end (think the end of the cheaper copper pex manifolds) to allow driving.  some sort of grease or something might help too. possibly a Hammer drill with a hammer only function would allow driving without screwing up the tube. 
if you're using solar fluid only, I would use all copper.  if you are using heating water or sometihing else I would use steel if you can.  Just thinking about being able to drive it without destroying it.  I know what the soil is like in your area.  not fun.

I think most of the time storing heat in the ground is a marginal idea, but when the heat is free and available, use it.  I wish I had laid a couple of loops in the groundwater laden gravel below the insulation in my basement floor for summer heat dump or cooling. and wish I had laid a couple of long loops in the 400' long 5' wide by 6' deep trench I had to dig to run water and power in.  could have used them for cooling or GSHP down the road. 
oh well.

let us know how it goes.  we'll be up over the 4th.  you gonna be around?

Propex

@ May 10, 2011 9:22 AM in PEX Installer Preferences

I have been really happy with the propex system.  The tube quality control is top notch, and I like that they put a second layer of pex over the O2 barrier to protect it.  I've seen lots of the cheap stuff peeling off at customer's houses.
the tools are pricy, but the battery expander is worth its weight in gold.  and there are new less expensive ones made by milwaukee now (lower profile too) so check them out.
we can rent tools from our supplier for big projects or stuff we don't work with too much.

The EP fittings lower cost makes up for the more pricey tubing, and there for those of you in Ca. the plastic is guaranteed lead free.

my $.02

karl

temps

@ May 8, 2011 5:20 PM in Large PEX

The high temps in this case just to be able to get more heat storage, and take advantage of the higher temps the garn will reach pretty easily.
I have sized the fan convectors to hit peak heat load down to about 160F incoming water temp and a 30deg delta T to allow lower than max flow, both to reduce pumping power and reduce piping costs.  the water would be mixed down to about that 160 F, and then drop below that when the storage temp lowers.  the LP fan convectors will pick up the slack till the hydronic convectors shut off at about 120 supply temp.

due to the UV issues, temp concerns and the fact that I can downsize one for copper (1.25" rather than 1.5 Pex)  and that I really want this system to look really nice (no droopy pex) I am going to go with copper. 
I'm really interested in alternatives to copper and even alternatives to pex, and I would like to see this thread live on as alternatives to copper become more attractive. 

cheers,
karl

cool

@ May 6, 2011 4:13 PM in Large PEX

that looks like cool stuff as well.  Large process piping would be pretty slick with that stuff.
K

pretty slick

@ May 6, 2011 8:59 AM in Large PEX

some pretty slick options there, the learning curve probably won't be there for this smallish project, but for larger ones, the cost savings may be well worth it. 

something new to learn!!

Probably going to stick with copper for this one, for a number of reasons.

K

distribution

@ May 5, 2011 2:23 PM in Large PEX

this will be in the building, not buried.  There is some buried already, but that's not the issue, the issue is the stuff I'll be using to distribute to a pair of fan convectors in the building.  I need 13 gpm  per convector, was planning on using 2" and 1.5" to do the deed.  I really would like to avoid the cost of copper and the headaches of iron. 
it's about 20 feet up,  and 20 feet to the near one, and another 50 feet to the far one. It's in a greenhouse, so the ability to curve to the building shape would be really cool.
Karl

Large PEX

@ May 5, 2011 12:33 PM in Large PEX

What are everyone's opinions on large diameter pex? 
I have an upcoming project that will be using 1.5 and 2" distribution piping, at low pressure and up to 180F. 
We have used lots of ProPex over the years, and love it, and use the battery expander.
I'm looking for opinions on the larger diameter stuff, and should I use Pex Al Pex, or regular PexA? 
if PAP, What fastening system should I look at? 

Thanks
Karl

3

@ May 4, 2011 6:49 PM in NABCEP Questions

I think given your background, you'd do fine at solar thermal, and should go out and install a couple of systems.  then sit for the Nabcep exam.  the 3 legs of the stool are "experience" "education" and "testing' 
you have the education and might be able to pass the testing, but don't have the experience, and should be able to make the case to a couple perspective customers that they should take your price, which for the first couple, could reflect the lack of NABCEP if that's really a selling point in your market (I really wish it was in mine, but here there are 5 thermal installers within 30 miles, and we're the smallest of the companies, although not the smallest ST installer, and I'm the only Nabcep certified one)

I was lucky in that I was able to get the test out of the way before we really set up shop in earnest on our own, and so that transition was pretty seamless.  
If the market is really that down, Is the nabcep cert going to really make that big a difference?  It helps differentiate you from the other guy (who may be waiting to get his stuff in line to be able to take the test next time 'round) but it's probably not going to make the difference between someone installing a system or not.

K

mandatory

@ May 4, 2011 2:04 PM in NABCEP Questions

the mandatory beef should be picked with colorado and others, not nabcep. 
you do not have to have your installations certified by a Nabcep certified installer. 
Please go look at the requirements before judging. 
I heard the catch 22 argument when the PV cert began many moons ago, and it wasn't true then, and isn't true now. 

just having a couple of installations doesn't do it, but having a couple of installs and being a master plumber, or being a mechanical engineer, or master pipefitter does.  having a 4 year accredited degree in a related field will work too, or a 2 year assoc degree in renewables will. 
there be many paths, and honestly, the having a couple of installs is the least onerous part of it, and the only one that can be done in a few months. 
please read the requirements before jumping on this bandwagon.
FYI, I had 30 SHW installs before I sat for the test.  plus that many PV and a dozen wind turbine installs. 

Karl

goosnargh

@ May 4, 2011 9:15 AM in NABCEP Questions

Mark,
How is what a catch 22?  I don't see that not being able to sit for an accreditation exam without ever doing the applicable work is a catch-22.  I refuse to start my career over to work for someone else at near minimum wage so I can get my plumbing license, and I don't gripe about it.  Ok, maybe I do a little, but that's not the point.  the point is that I don't expect to sit for my plumbing license exam without ever doing any plumbing, in fact I would need thousands of hours working under a master to even think about it. 

so where is it onerous to require someone to install a few systems before sitting for a voluntary certification?  hardly an insurmountable standard, methinks.

K

horizontal

@ May 3, 2011 12:44 PM in concrete solar storage tank

we're planning on venting it thru a horizontal vent into their recommended barrel with a 1/4" spark arrestor screen.  so while there may be some heat loss, it will most likely be minimal, as there is no rise. 

garn provides water testing services and analysis and a customized treatment regime for their product.  I wonder how many regular OWB manufacturers actually deal with that? 

as far as I know, their original boilers from the mid 80's are still running.  or that was a few years ago, but that's hard to beat. 
unfortunately, it seems with lots of the other OWB's, about the time you've saved the 7-10K they cost, they're about done for.  of course there is a huge difference when things are properly maintained. 

cheers,
karl

congrats

@ May 2, 2011 4:15 PM in NABCEP Questions

That's about how I felt when I found out I passed too. 
Glad you've joined our noble ranks ;)
Karl