Heating Help

cleaning the Hx

@ May 13, 2010 12:36 AM in Munchkin spark electrode

A heavy nylon brush on a drill mount (according to this forum), CLR (according to HTP manual), flush liberally (according to common sense). Works great. See previous post e.g.

http://72.3.142.104/forum-thread/128833/Munchkin-Contender-Heat-Exchanger

I had a similar experience

@ April 1, 2010 10:42 AM in back firing munchkin

and this site helped me out, have a look

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/128800/Munchkin-140M-firing-spark-electrode-angle

ODR installed now

@ March 30, 2010 10:35 AM in Add outdoor reset to Munchkin 140M

I bought just the sensor from a supply house(KSCDirect in Omaha), bought the proper connector ends from www.mouser.com, installed as per the Munchkin manual and it has been working just fine, supply temp changes as outdoor temp changes.

Strainer must be horizontal?

@ March 14, 2010 1:56 PM in Add outdoor reset to Munchkin 140M

If I put a strainer above the boiler pump, it would not be horizontal.  All of the strainers I have seen, fancy type or wye type, the sediment collects at the bottom by gravity. That won't happen if the strainer is on the vertical pipe near the boiler.

where would you put a strainer?

@ March 13, 2010 2:10 AM in Add outdoor reset to Munchkin 140M

That cartridge strainer looks pretty nice. Presumably they work as well as advertised?

After 4.5 yers, is it better late then never for installing a strainer and trying to save the heat xer? Can i clean out any sludge/sediment this summer by flushing it manualy?

OK, here are some pics of the relevant newer piping:

pic 1:  Cold return pipe in the back, the refill also hooks into this out of the pic to the right. The last joining return from the rads is by the yellow "R." You can see 2 Grundfos, one for rads one for RFH loop (the foamed pipes), pumping away, and a 3rd pump at the boiler.

pic 2: back left of the upper piping, this a good location for a strainer (Str)?

pic 3: looking up at that location, from where the boiler says "Munchkin.".

no sediment strainer

@ March 12, 2010 5:59 PM in Add outdoor reset to Munchkin 140M

hmmm no that was not installed and is not among the many small repairs I have done. I'll have to do some reading, I don't know what that is.

sensor on the way

@ March 11, 2010 11:57 PM in Add outdoor reset to Munchkin 140M

Thanks much for the reply.

I went ahead and ordered the sensor, and some wires to make sure I have the proper terminals. Will post back how it goes. Because I know you are all dying to hear about it :) .

Add outdoor reset to Munchkin 140M

@ March 9, 2010 3:37 AM in Add outdoor reset to Munchkin 140M

2200 sq ft residence, converted gravity with cast iron radiators plus second RFH zone, Munchkin 140M mod/con, about 4.5 years old with 925 control panel and no Vision (outdoor reset) control.

This winter I have learned a lot about the boiler, done some needed service thanks to this forum  (call in a pro for dialing in the combustion), been adjusting the setpoint manually and steady condensing is working great.

Called Munchkin for the Vision 1 Kit part number for my boiler. Not sure what the policy here is on posting prices so I won't for now. It is a retrofit kit, Vision control is now standard on all their mod-cons. I looked closely at the installation manual. The kit consists of an outdoor sensor and its 2 wires, an indirect tank sensor and its its several wires (including for the pump on the indirect), and one wire to serve as hot for an optional remote failure indicator. I have no indirect so all I really need is the outdoor sensor and its 2 wires. That sensor alone can be had for one third the cost of the kit.

1. Do I need to be talked out of installing the reset myself? Right now I see no reason not to.

2. Am I OK buying only the sensor and carefully attaching it with the recommended AWG18?

I would like to source proper connector ends for the 2 wires at the Molex plug, ideas? E.g. I can buy wires made to fit a different hole in the plug for $6 each, and will do it if that is recommended, but seems excessive for basically connector. Need a junked Munchkin boiler for its wire ends ...

Any comments would be welcome.

As I understand it ...

@ February 19, 2010 10:09 AM in How do you interpret,,,

.. heat only moves 3 ways: conduction (touching), convection, radiation (radiant waves across an empty space).

And convection is really a special case of conduction (energy transfer between touching substances due to atomic vibration or electron transfer), because in convection a fluid flows over another substance, enhancing conduction between them.

Sounds to me like:
- direct flame energy transfer is what happens in the boiler, when those flames lick the coils. This would be mostly conduction (direct heat transfer from the flame/air to the coil), with some convection (hot air forced to move in the boiler chamber).

- radiant energy transfer is what happens at the heating appliance in the living space (this is only radiation, from radiators, RFH plates, etc., no conduction). Once the radiant transfer is done you get some conduction and convection, when the warm air goes on to heat you and me. Or if you are lucky, you're next to that radiator getting radiant heat directly.

nice drawing is from NRT Radiant

@ February 19, 2010 9:40 AM in 2 zones 2 stats: stat 1 calls both zones, stat 2 calls zone 2

The clunky drawing (of all wiring) I did myself, in Powerpoint.

The really nice drawing came from NRT Radiant when they designed the RFH. I don't know what software they used. I just modified their drawing in Photoshop when I made the jumper and wiring changes.

NRT designed the RFH retrofit (swapped out some radiators during a remodel), I installed. I recommend them highly, very fair and helpful. And the design includes great drawings!

Solved

@ February 11, 2010 7:07 PM in 2 zones 2 stats: stat 1 calls both zones, stat 2 calls zone 2

The answer is yes, the current relays can handle this just fine, here is how it is presently wired:

2 zones 2 stats: stat 1 calls both zones, stat 2 calls zone 2

@ February 9, 2010 12:29 PM in 2 zones 2 stats: stat 1 calls both zones, stat 2 calls zone 2

Residence (mine), mod-con boiler, 2 zones

Zone 1 (main zone) is converted gravity, cast iron, heating most of the downstairs and all of the upstairs. Second (smaller) zone is RFH under tile, covers kitchen and adjacent small addition. Open floor plan so these rooms do get some heat from zone 1. Each zone has a stat and a Taco SR501 relay. Three pumps on the system: a return pump upstream of the boiler, one pump for radiator loop, one pump for RFH loop. No outdoor reset (I know ...). Overall happy with this system, in our second winter now.

When the RFH is calling but the rads aren't, the boiler tends to short cycle because the RFH gpm draw is low, so boiler quickly overshoots temp and shuts down. But RFH loop keeps calling, so that soon the temp in the primary loop drops and the boiler cycles again. Most often happens because the RFH is calling for slab temp, not for room temp. To help minimize that short cycling I want to try running the RFH loop whenever the rads are running, to boost the floor temp up in that zone when the boiler is already running (and condensing), but also maintain the ability for the RFH to call and run separately from stat 2. I expect this will boost the RFH temps higher than we have them now but that is OK and I want to try it out.

So, current setup:
Main stat calls ==> boiler called, pumps runs for radiators loop
Addition (RFH) stat calls ==> boiler called, pump runs for RFH loop

desired setup:
Main stat calls ==> boiler called, pumps run on both loops
Addition (RFH) stat calls ==> boiler called, only RFH loop pump runs

Can I do this with existing relays? I considered taking the RFH pump off its relay and running it from the orange wire on the boiler, but then would the RFH pump continue to run when the boiler is called but temp is already up? I'm thinking no, but I'm (obviously) not a pro ...

Sorry for the long post. Current controls diagrammed in images.

More details needed

@ February 6, 2010 12:39 PM in Low boiler water Temp

For starters, what kind of boiler? Mod-con? Has it been serviced since you installed it?

How is it piped (pictures would be great)?

165 is not so unusual for radiant floor heat.

Watching

@ January 5, 2010 10:32 PM in Anticipator setting?

OK I set it to 30, going to see how it behaves. Going out of town for a couple weeks so my wife will have to tell me how it goes. I'm thinking that if temp still holds steady, maybe the boiler is cycling longer with the higher setting so that is an improvement. Thank you for the explanation of what the anticipator control does.

Anticipator setting?

@ January 5, 2010 12:33 AM in Anticipator setting?

Converted gravity system with large diameter cast iron pipes, cast iron radiators, 4 years into a Munchkin mod-con boiler with 925 control panel.  2 zones, main house and radiant floor for kitchen plus adjacent. No outdoor reset.   Thermostat is a White-Rodgers 1F97-371, a simple 7-day programmable (manual at http://www.white-rodgers.com/wrdhom/common/ptech/thermo/90_Series_faq.htm#26).

The house is warm, doing OK there, but the boiler short-cycles a bit, although I'm not a pro. The panel readout says 1,000 central heat hours, 27,500 passed ignition attempts, 35,300 total run time hours ( = almost exactly 4 years). Only 1,000 heat hours over 4 Iowa winters???  At any rate, 30 ignitions per hour sounds like short cycling to me (how many per hour is good?). I'm assuming it does not count the many many failed attempts when I was dealing with F09 issues last month.

I just learned that the thermostat has adjustable anticipation, range 0 to 40. The manual says "start at setting of 35 for hydronic" but it has been set at the factory default of 5 for the past 4 years now. I recently learned/corrected some installation mistakes made with the Munchkin, is this a mistake with the control settings on the thermostat?

Basic question is, any thoughts on an appropriate anticipation setting for the t-stat, and/or how do I figure out if I am at the right setting if I "start with 35" as suggested?

Angle grinder

@ December 31, 2009 10:55 AM in Underfloor radient off BB return

You said easy crawl space access ... an hour or two with an angle grinder (edit: mounted with a cutoff wheel) and the surface in the joist bays will be nice and smooth for plates.  Well worth the effort.  I don't have experience with Ultrafin but I know it is expensive.

Government funding

@ December 31, 2009 9:48 AM in The end of heating systems?

is the only reason this stuff exists, they (NASA) have put ALL of the funding into this product so far. Indeed, gov't funding has, as usual, produced a great opportunity here for venture capital ... 

Cleaned and basic repairs

@ December 23, 2009 11:41 PM in Munchkin 140M firing: spark electrode angle?

Thanks all who have posted, this thread has answered a lot of questions and I finally understand the basics of how this Munchkin works, and some of the things that need to be done each year for maintenance.

Today the parts arrived and I cleaned the coils while replacing the refractory, burner+gasket, and target wall. ME - I was already wearing a respirator and being extremely careful with the ceramics, they look especially nasty and fluffy after moisture damage as I found them. It ran one day without the gasket, won't have to do that again I picked up a few spares.

Coils are much cleaner now but not squeaky clean (pics) I can go back in at the end of the season (and will, every season!)

Gerry was right the swirl plate is indeed ruined (pic), but I had already placed the parts order when he posted. So I'll replace that before the tech visits for combustion. The cork gasket on the blower assembly opposite the swirl plate is sticking out (pic), seemed odd.

Before cleaning the coils I checked the drain with a hose, it was flowing well. I performed clean-out maneuvers anyway but it seems like chamber problems (refractory, burner) were more likely due to flue gas intake and fours winters of neglect, than to backed up condensation.

Does the pitted ceramic on that flame rectifier probe look bad to anyone (pic)?

Nylox or Nyalox?

@ December 23, 2009 10:54 PM in Munchkin Contender Heat Exchanger

OK maybe drill mount is implicit in your post, newbie here ...

I found Nyalox at local Ace hardware. They had Blue (fine) Orange (coarse) and Black (very coarse). Unsure if it was the right product I went with blue to err on the side of caution. Seemed to clean without damaging the coils, although it is not "good as new." I used it on an old 1200 rpm drill.
Brush, coils before, coils after:

Munchkin manual says to use CLR,

@ December 23, 2009 10:23 PM in Munchkin Contender Heat Exchanger

do other vendors/manufacturers recommend otherwise?

How about a drill mount nyon brush

@ December 23, 2009 4:43 PM in Munchkin Contender Heat Exchanger

for cleaning the coils? Seems a way to get abrasion without damage.

Running without a burner gasket?

@ December 22, 2009 11:13 AM in Munchkin 140M firing: spark electrode angle?

Yes, thanks much Wayne, great info from somebody who services them a lot. Will definitely replace both ceramics. Since the burner is pricey, I won't be ponying up for a 926 control
board right now. But protecting that blower motor sounds like a good
idea, with what I've read about troubles with that part.

Have found a source for a burner gaskets today - 2.5 hours away.

Any thoughts on running this boiler for a couple days with no burner gasket, then do the job when shipping comes in?